If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

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edpobre

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Originally posted by wblastyn
So you claim to fully understand God then? Ok, please explain GOD to us, we want to know everything.

Childish! Did I claim I fully understand God?

(again, the only reason you will not accept the trinity is because you won't until you fully understand it, which is impossible).

I do NOT accept the Trinity because it is NOT what Jesus TAUGHT. And understanding the Trinity is IMPOSSIBLE because it is ILLOGICAL and IRRATIONAL.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Posted by ed: You are NOT being RATIONAL fow. You quote a version of John 1:18 which says that the "one and only God" is at the Father's side.

Thats what the Bible says ed

I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing"  who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father."  BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

Posted by ed: I know and believe that there is ONLY ONE God. Then, who are the "two things" that you said finish first place together at the end of a race and ared of EQUAL speed?

well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?" 

Posted by ed: God EXALTED Jesus for His glory. God put ALL things UNDER Jesus for His glory. God did NOT give His glory to anotherwhen He EXALTED Jesus. Jesus and God are TWO separate and DISTINCT (different) beings. One is a MAN, the other is God

Well ed... You say that He didn't, but He says that He has... God became nothing and then subjected Himself to death ed... the Father will not be in the presence of sin... so He made Himself nothing... yes...becoming subject to the penalty of men... the Son of God, who is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS!!!

Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON. 

ed says they are two separate and DISTINCT (different) things

Christ says that He and the Father are ONE.

Christ did NOT say that he and the Father are one "thing" (your word).

you simply cannot believe that God would become nothing for you... I care for you ed... I am not against you... I'd even say 'love' if it wasn't for the fact that you might think it weird.

What you are saying is NOT found in the Bible. These are only products of your imagination.

tell me ed... Can a General rightly order men into a battle and tell them to go forth courageously if he himself knows that he will not go with them??? It is done...but is it honorable??? Is it not those who see the battle and are steadfast that are honored as heros???

What you are saying is the product of a CARNAL mind. God SENT his SON to REDEEM those under the law (Gal. 4:4-6). It was God's SON who DIED on the cross for sinners. God's SON is Jesus who SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40).

Ed
 
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fieldsofwind

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Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
 
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Originally posted by fieldsofwind
not really kain... you see Christ says in His word that He made Himself, nothing!... to take on the nature of a man... to die for us..

He is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

He is the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... He is the Word of God who is God

God says that He is the Alpha and the Omega... so if two things finish a race in first place... are they not of equal speed???

and God says that He will not give His glory to another.... He has said that before Him no gods were formed, and neither will there be any after Him...
He alone is God... and He became a man...

Do you not believe that God can become a man??? To die for you

I believe Him...

Not so fow, God sais He is not a man. So I don't believe He became one. To do so is to call God a liar.

What the New Testament teaches is that God exalted Jesus with temporary authority, that God the Father did His work through Jesus.

You quote the very same verses that show Jesus as a servant of God, and you call it a trinity. It seems you have made up your mind of this false doctrine by ignoring the very words of Jesus.
 
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fieldsofwind

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Kain... for all men have sinned.. does Christ fall under this category???

Kain... Christ says that he took on the nature of a man... you think that Christ was just a man...simple as that??? Because that is what God was talking about...

Read my last post to ed...

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
 
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Se7en

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Originally posted by gunnysgt
10. They also believe in "soul sleep," a belief that at death, the souls dies. There is no consciousness.

How in the world is this NOT a Biblically based belief???

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2 on the ressurection.

"the dead know nothing." Ecclesiastes 9:5

"Give light to my eyes or I will sleep in death." Psalm 13:3

"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried and his tomb is here to this day...For David did not ascend to heaven..." Acts 2:29,34

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." 1 Corinthians 15:20

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." 1 Corinthians 15:51


It's quite clear...our body and soul dies...there is no consciousness upon death. It is only through Christ's return that we are ressurected to eternal life.

"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory"" 1 Corinthians 15:54
 
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Gunny

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Originally posted by gunnysgt

10. They also believe in "soul sleep," a belief that at death, the souls dies. There is no consciousness. (A belief of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church - Ellen G. White).
Berean Ministries
[/B]

Originally posted by Se7en
How in the world is this NOT a Biblically based belief???


Life After Death or Soul Sleep?


What happens after a person dies? Do they have a spirit that either goes to heaven or hell? Or does their soul merely sleep in the grave, trapped inside their decaying body? While orthodox Christians have believed for centuries that the dead go either to heaven or hell, there has been a growing trend toward the latter view, which is called the "doctrine of soul sleep." To determine who is correct, we must search the scriptures carefully to get the complete picture.
The advocates of soul sleep do not look at every Bible passage on this subject. They limit their view to a few isolated verses, which seem to support it. For example, Jesus likened death to sleep in John 11:11 and Matt. 9:24. Death has also been described as sleep in Job 7:21, Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:2, 1 Cor. 11:30 & 15:51. Thus, these well-meaning folks seem to have scriptural support for their doctrine.
However, one of the main principles of hermeneutics is that the Bible is its own best interpreter. All doctrines must, therefore, be based upon what every verse about a particular subject says. No verses should be ignored or emphasized at the expense of others. Another important hermeneutical principle is knowing that the Bible often uses metaphors, similes, and other figures of speech. Many people lack the linguistic skills to recognize such language. Such is the case with soul sleep. Both of these principles of interpretation have been neglected for some reason.
The greatest authority on biblical truth is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The most explicit teaching about life after death, which Jesus provided for us, is Luke 16:19-31. While many Bibles include a heading over these verses entitled, "Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus," the scriptures themselves do not identify this as a parable. While Jesus did begin telling parables in Luke 14:7, He finished in ch. 16:13. Then, He changed His style in verse 14 to teach about the evil Pharisees. Verse 18 was a teaching about divorce and adultery. It should also be noted that Jesus never mentioned any person in His other parables by name. In this account, however, He identified the beggar as a man named Lazarus. For these reasons, I consider it erroneous to label this passage as a parable. Thus, Jesus was not speaking with parables, but teaching. He intended this to be interpreted literally.
Another good reason to literally interpret what Jesus said above is that His teaching is consistent with the O.T. belief about sheol (Heb. word for hell). The Jews defined sheol as "the abode of the dead." O.T. Jews believed that both saints and sinners went to sheol after death. The only way this could be possible is if Jesus' description of the afterlife is true. Thus, the Greek word for hades is the equivalent of the Hebrew word for sheol. It also means that the abode of the dead literally had two sections one for saints and the other for sinners, which is exactly what Jesus taught.
The advocates of soul sleep, however, claim that both sheol and hades should be translated as "grave." If they really were the linguistic scholars they think they are, they would know that q'eber is the Heb. word for grave. Its Gk. equivalent is nemion. Thus, the abode of the dead and the grave are two different places. One is for the departed spirit, and the other for the dead body. They should not be confused.
Jesus referred to the section for dead saints as "Abraham's bosom." This section was also known as "paradise" by O.T. Jews. That is why Jesus told the repentant thief, who was crucified with Him, that they would both be together in paradise after they died later that same day (Lk. 23:43).
Jesus went on to describe how the section for sinners was a place of torment, which was separated from Abraham's bosom by a gulf that no one could cross. The torment was caused by some type of flame (vs. 24). The fact that the rich man was able to recognize Abraham and Lazarus further reveals that people retain their cognitive faculties after death. Thus, the human spirit is not some type of formless blob. Our spirits have a definite shape, which corresponds to the way we look in the flesh, in order for recognition to be possible. Even the Father has a particular shape according to Jesus (John 5:37).
The advocates of soul sleep play another linguistic trick with the way they claim that the Heb. and Gk. words, which are translated as "spirit," should be translated as "breath." As a result, they change every verse in the Bible about our spirits to refer to our breath instead. The seriousness of this error is not readily apparent when, for example, you see how they change Jas. 2:26 from, "...as the body without the spirit is dead...," to, "...as the body without the breath is dead..." To revise every verse this way, however, changes others into nonsense. Take Heb. 12:23 as an example. Orthodox translations say that we have come "...to the spirits of just men made perfect." Soul sleepers change this to, "...the breaths of just men..." Another example is in 1 Thes. 5:23. Orthodox translations speak of the process of sanctification purifying one's "whole spirit, soul, and body." Our breaths do not need sanctification because they cannot be defiled like our spirits. Thus, this example is very similar to 2 Cor. 7:1, which exhorts us to "cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit..." Sin exists not only in our flesh, but also in our spirits, not our breath.
Man is comprised of three parts spirit, soul, and body. We are not two-part beings with only a body and soul. The essence of our being is spirit, which lives on after the body dies. The real you is a spirit being, who lives in a mortal body. Your soul refers to those aspects of your personality, which include your mind, emotions, and free will.
Biblical proof that we have spirits, who continue to live apart from our bodies after death, can be seen in several passages. Let's look first at Matt. 17:3-4. When Jesus was transfigured, Moses appeared to Him along with Elijah. Moses died in Deut. 34:5. God buried Moses in the next verse. Thus, Moses did not appear to Jesus in his physical body. It was his spirit, who not only appeared so he could be seen by the eye, but also spoke so he could be heard.
How this can be so is further explained by Paul in 2 Cor. 5:1-8. Verse 1 refers to our body as an "earthly house" and a "tent." Thus, the real person is a spirit, who lives inside a tent (body). Paul went on to say that while we are at home inside our bodies, we are absent from the Lord (vs. 6). But when we die, we are absent from our body and present with the Lord (vs. 8).
Moses was not the only saint whose spirit appeared to someone in the Bible. It happened twice to John in the book of Revelation. In ch. 19:10, the being, who spoke with John, identified himself as his "fellow servant" and one of his "brethren who have the testimony of Jesus." Thus, he was a spiritual brother. In ch. 22:8-9, the being John thought was an angel identified himself as another "fellow servant," who was of his "brethren the prophets." If soul sleep was true, they could not have been showing John things in heaven. They would have been confined to their bodies in their graves.
Rev. 6:9-11 also describes martyred saints, whose spirits were with God in heaven. When they died, their spirits departed from their bodies and returned to God. Rev. 5:8-10 is similar. This passage identifies the 24 elders as people, who were redeemed from among men. They could not have been in heaven with God if soul sleep was true. This is further confirmed by Ecc. 12:7. This verse explicitly states that when our bodies die, our spirits return to God, Who gave them.
I previously mentioned how Jesus' spirit went to Paradise after He was crucified. While His body was dead for 3 days in the tomb, Peter said that His spirit went where He could preach to other dead people in a spiritual prison (1 Pet. 3:18-20). Peter identified these imprisoned people as the sinners who died during Noah's flood. Just as Abraham spoke to the rich man across the gulf in Luke 16, Jesus preached across that same gulf to the sinners on the other side. Thus, what Jesus did after His death on the cross was not what the so-called "faith message" says. Jesus did not suffer on the side of torment. He went to Paradise with the repentant thief and preached across the gulf to the dead sinners on the other side.
2 Cor. 12:1-4 also says some amazing things about how it is possible to be absent from our bodies. Paul said he knew someone, who was caught up to the third heaven and heard inexpressible words that were not lawful to utter. He went on to say that he did not know if the man, who had this experience, was in his body or out of his body. Paul expressed his amazement at this twice, in both vss. 2 & 3. If soul sleepers were correct, this would be impossible because no one could be out of their body if they did not have a spirit.
It seems to me that the reason the idea of soul sleep is so appealing to those who believe it is because they have a faulty understanding of God's love. God's love is one of the most appealing attributes of His nature. However, love is not His only attribute. I think holiness is His greatest attribute because so many passages describe worshippers prostrating themselves before Him exclaiming, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts!" There is no place where they say, "Love, love, love..." God's love is wonderful, but it must be balanced with His holiness, which demands justice against those who rebel against His Lordship.
It also seems that soul sleepers have a faith problem toward God. To think a loving God would not punish sinners means they do not trust God's fairness. Neither do they have the faith to trust His infinite wisdom. I believe God would deal with sinners differently if there was a way to do it. We should trust that God is wise enough to know that His judgments are best and also loving enough to be fair. He must know something about the nature of sin to realize that there is no other way to deal with it.
Anyone, who questions God's fairness, is falling for a similar temptation to what the serpent posed to Adam and Eve in Eden. Satan influenced our first parents to think God was unfair to withhold anything from them in the garden. He got them to take their minds off all the good things God created for them to eat and focus upon the only thing He forbade. Once he succeeded in getting them to question God's fairness, he then called God a liar. He led them step by step into disobedience, which led to all the wickedness we see upon the earth today.
While I do not consider the doctrine of soul sleep to be a damnable heresy, it is still in error. If it creates a subtle feeling against God's fairness, it could lead to worse problems. Considering what questioning God's fairness did to Adam and Eve, it could lead to similar consequences among soul sleepers. The truth will never malign God's character. We can trust that everything He does is not only loving, but also wise, fair, and just.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by Kain
The relavent title for God used in Exodus is "I am who I am."

The Greek word above translated conveniently as "I am" is, in the context of other verses understood to be "I am he." The same words are used by people other than Christ.

In proper wording, the verse becomes "Before Abraham came to be, I am he"

This verse has Jesus telling the Jews that God's divine plan for the messiah existed before Abraham and manifested in him.

Other support for this interpretation can be found in Revelations.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

As you can see here, Jesus wasn't literally slain before the foundation of the world. This is another example that shows a divine plan of God concerning the messiah that existed before Christ was born.

You don't have to accept this interpretation. But by not doing so, you call Jesus himself a liar who said only the Father is God. "Only" is an exclusive word.
To respond to the several ungrammatical, illogical, misrepresentations in this post requires a thread of its own. Click this (Link) for page one of my response. And stay tuned for further installments.
 
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Se7en

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Originally posted by gunnysgt
It also seems that soul sleepers have a faith problem toward God. To think a loving God would not punish sinners means they do not trust God's fairness. Neither do they have the faith to trust His infinite wisdom.

&nbsp;

This accusation is absolutely laughable!&nbsp; All I take "soul sleeping" to mean is that we are DEAD, complete and utterly, until Christ's return&nbsp;and the subsequent ressurection of the&nbsp;DEAD.&nbsp;&nbsp;I have not seen anyone claim that sinners are not punished.&nbsp; Whoever thinks that missed out on the book of Revelation.&nbsp; I trust God's fairness, but I don't trust man's&nbsp;belief that we&nbsp;posess an immortal soul.

Since this is entirely off topic I'll drop it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
 
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OldShepherd

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Posted by Kain
This feeble attempt does nothing to my argument. If God created a boulder so big He can't lift it, his omnipotence is lost. Uncreating and recreating elsewhere isn't lifting. But this is a logical falacy.
I asked you to explain how your response was self contradictory and shot your own argument in the foot. You evidently do not realize that it is. You say, “if God created a boulder so big He can't lift it, his omnipotence is lost.”, then presume to give a mini lecture on mathematics. A science, oh BTW, devised by mankind to explain the known world. If God is, as you have already stated, “omnipotent” then nothing, not your human concept of percentages or logic, absolutely nothing, can limit His power.
The same applied to percentage. From the language definition of percent, it is anything from 0 part of a whole to the whole entirely. The percentage divides one whole into any number of pieces.
”From the language definition of percent” Can any man made “language definition, rule, law, precept, etc. limit God’s omnipotence? Your explanation only applies if we are talking about apples, oranges, etc. but God is not an apple or an orange. This response expresses a “thought” about God and you are convinced that “thought” is correct. But God said;

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Does that include your thoughts on percentages, logic, etc? Or do you know more that God?
To say that God is one whole AND another whole is a logical falacy.
Another misrepresentation. Jesus said He was the “son of man” and the “son of God”. Was Jesus 100 percent “son of man” and, at the same time, 100 percent “son of God ?” Or was it 50/50, 60/40, or some other ratio? Is this a logical fallacy also?
God is not a man. Scripture also makes this clear.
I assume you are referring to Numbers 23:19. But this one verse does not say “God is not a man<period>” as you have misstated. The statement is not absolute but qualified, “God is not a man, that he should lie or repent.”. This verse was addressed to a specific situation over 1000 years BC. Nothing in the verse, or the entire Bible, precludes the omnipotent God, sometime afterward, from humbling Himself, making himself of no reputation, and taking upon Himself the form of a servant, and being made in the likeness of men: (paraphrase, Philp 2:7)

Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

FYI, Jesus referred to the Father as a man in the N.T. As a matter of fact, it was in the same chapter as this thread topic

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


Jesus was a man and said that He was one of the two men and the Father was the other. I wonder why Jesus didn’t say “two witnesses” instead of “two men” Maybe you can help Him out Kain, and put the “right” words in Jesus’ mouth.
But according to the gospel of trinity, the trinity god is both 100% man and 100% god(and 100% spirit) making three distinct wholes.
It is not I who is rewriting scripture.
”making three distinct wholes.” “Three gods. Three gods. Three gods. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!”As I have said before I have never encountered any anti-Trinitarian, anywhere, who has the integrity, or is it the intellectual capacity, to actually learn what the Trinity is and discuss it honestly and knowledgeably.

By illegitimatizing what Trinitarians actually believe, you invalidate everything you say. How can anything you say be factual, truthful, or authoritative when you are incapable of accurately defining and addressing this one word? If the Trinity doctrine is so wrong then all you guys should be able to quickly and easily refute it, truthfully and honestly, as the old saying goes “standing on one foot, with one hand tied behind your back.”

The fact that every single one of you must resort to innuendo, misrepresentation, exaggeration, half truth, and out and out lies, clearly shows you have no valid argument, you are incapable of presenting a reasoned, rational, documented discussion of the Trinity. You claim to have the truth on your side. Let’s see it!
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
Another misrepresentation. Jesus said He was the “son of man” and the “son of God”. Was Jesus 100 percent “son of man” and, at the same time, 100 percent “son of God ?” Or was it 50/50, 60/40, or some other ratio? Is this a logical fallacy also?

That Jesus is&nbsp;Son of Man and Son of God at the SAME time does NOT change his state of being. Jesus is STILL a MAN just as a Canadian citizen is also an American citizen yet remains a MAN. That's elementary dear OldShepherd.&nbsp;

I assume you are referring to Numbers 23:19. But this one verse does not say “God is not a man<PERIOD>” as you have misstated. The statement is not absolute but qualified, “God is not a man, that he should lie or repent.”. This verse was addressed to a specific situation over 1000 years BC. Nothing in the verse, or the entire Bible, precludes the omnipotent God, sometime afterward, from humbling Himself, making himself of no reputation, and taking upon Himself the form of a servant, and being made in the likeness of men: (paraphrase, Philp 2:7)

Go to Malachi 3:6 OldShepherd and add it to this verses and you will SEE that God is NOT a MAN that he should CHANGE.&nbsp;You are gra bbing at straw to defend your FALSE Trinity doctrine. Apostle Paul did NOT write that "Jesus is God who was in the FORM of God."

FYI, Jesus referred to the Father as a man in the N.T. As a matter of fact, it was in the same chapter as this thread topic

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


Jesus was a man and said that He was one of the two men and the Father was the other. I wonder why Jesus didn’t say “two witnesses” instead of “two men” Maybe you can help Him out Kain, and put the “right” words in Jesus’ mouth.

Take off your Trinity-tinted glasses and read again. Jesus said, "It is also written in YOUR law, that the testimony of two men..." He is referring to the law of men where the testimony of two men is true. He is NOT saying that the Father is a man.

”making three distinct wholes.” “Three gods. Three gods. Three gods. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!”As I have said before I have never encountered any anti-Trinitarian, anywhere, who has the integrity, or is it the intellectual capacity, to actually learn what the Trinity is and discuss it honestly and knowledgeably.

Every anti-Trinitarian I know discusses this subjewt HONESTLY. But every Trinitarian&nbsp; I have encountered resort to name-calling everytime they are caught in&nbsp; lie.

[bIf the Trinity doctrine is so wrong then all you guys should be able to quickly and easily refute it, truthfully and honestly, as the old saying goes “standing on one foot, with one hand tied behind your back.”

The Trinity has been refuted a hundred times. And everytime it is refuted, Trinitarians wallow in LIES.

The fact that every single one of you must resort to innuendo, misrepresentation, exaggeration, half truth, and out and out lies, clearly shows you have no valid argument, you are incapable of presenting a reasoned, rational, documented discussion of the Trinity. You claim to have the truth on your side. Let’s see it!

Let's see who is&nbsp;RATIONAL and TRUTHFUL.

Do you know arithmetic OldShepherd? Yes or No! How MANY times is God stated in this statement: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One or THREE? Only HONEST answers please!

When you say "ONE God in THREE "persons" what do you mean by "person?" Doesn't "person" actually&nbsp;mean GOD?&nbsp; Yes or No.

Let's cut out the [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] be HONEST as mature adults so we can&nbsp; teach our children to be HONEST themselves.

Ed

&nbsp;
 
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fieldsofwind

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hey ed: how are you today

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
 
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OldShepherd

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Posted by Pobre
Do you know arithmetic OldShepherd? Yes or No! How MANY times is God stated in this statement: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One or THREE? Only HONEST answers please!

When you say "ONE God in THREE "persons" what do you mean by "person?" Doesn't "person" actually mean GOD? Yes or No.

Let's cut out the [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] be HONEST as mature adults so we can teach our children to be HONEST themselves.
You want to teach me math Pobre? God the Father, God the Creator, God the Savior, God the Redeemer, God the Lord of Hosts, and God the Holy. How many times do you count God in that sentence? Be honest please. You say it is the same God? Now you are catching on. What do I mean by person? According to the online dictionary. I see how rationally you can discuss things as a member of the “only true church” I wonder what four letter word starting with “S” you wrote there that got censored.

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
Date: 13th century
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection
 
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Originally posted by OldShepherd
I asked you to explain how your response was self contradictory and shot your own argument in the foot. You evidently do not realize that it is. You say, “if God created a boulder so big He can't lift it, his omnipotence is lost.”, then presume to give a mini lecture on mathematics. A science, oh BTW, devised by mankind to explain the known world. If God is, as you have already stated, “omnipotent” then nothing, not your human concept of percentages or logic, absolutely nothing, can limit His power.


Now your distorting the issue. This is not a contradiction of what I said at all. I said that if it were logically possible to 'create' a boulder so large that God can't lift it, then His omnipostence would be ruined. Therefore, it's a logical fallacy to assume such a thing. Logical fallacies don't fit into the definition of omnipotence. Can God uncreate Himself? Another logical fallacy.

”From the language definition of percent” Can any man made “language definition, rule, law, precept, etc. limit God’s omnipotence? Your explanation only applies if we are talking about apples, oranges, etc. but God is not an apple or an orange. This response expresses a “thought” about God and you are convinced that “thought” is correct. But God said;

Can an apple be an orange at the same time? A logical fallacy. By definition, an apple is not an oragne and vice versa. Also by definition, a God is not a man and vice versa. God says He is not a man and He doesn't change.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Exactly. When he says He is the only God, and He doesn't change, that is His thought. Not yours. When He says He sent His son to bring His message to mankind, that's His thought, not yours.

Does that include your thoughts on percentages, logic, etc? Or do you know more that God?

No more than what He tells me.

Another misrepresentation. Jesus said He was the “son of man” and the “son of God”. Was Jesus 100 percent “son of man” and, at the same time, 100 percent “son of God ?” Or was it 50/50, 60/40, or some other ratio? Is this a logical fallacy also?

Ed's refutation fits perfectly here. No need to repeat.

I assume you are referring to Numbers 23:19. But this one verse does not say “God is not a man<period>” as you have misstated. The statement is not absolute but qualified, “God is not a man, that he should lie or repent.”. This verse was addressed to a specific situation over 1000 years BC. Nothing in the verse, or the entire Bible, precludes the omnipotent God, sometime afterward, from humbling Himself, making himself of no reputation, and taking upon Himself the form of a servant, and being made in the likeness of men: (paraphrase, Philp 2:7)

No, I'm referring to the entire bible taken in context.

FYI, Jesus referred to the Father as a man in the N.T. As a matter of fact, it was in the same chapter as this thread topic

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


Jesus was a man and said that He was one of the two men and the Father was the other. I wonder why Jesus didn’t say “two witnesses” instead of “two men” Maybe you can help Him out Kain, and put the “right” words in Jesus’ mouth.

He brought up an example from the law. Jesus didn't call God a man.

”making three distinct wholes.” “Three gods. Three gods. Three gods. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!”As I have said before I have never encountered any anti-Trinitarian, anywhere, who has the integrity, or is it the intellectual capacity, to actually learn what the Trinity is and discuss it honestly and knowledgeably.

By illegitimatizing what Trinitarians actually believe, you invalidate everything you say. How can anything you say be factual, truthful, or authoritative when you are incapable of accurately defining and addressing this one word? If the Trinity doctrine is so wrong then all you guys should be able to quickly and easily refute it, truthfully and honestly, as the old saying goes “standing on one foot, with one hand tied behind your back.”

The fact that every single one of you must resort to innuendo, misrepresentation, exaggeration, half truth, and out and out lies, clearly shows you have no valid argument, you are incapable of presenting a reasoned, rational, documented discussion of the Trinity. You claim to have the truth on your side. Let’s see it!

That is not it at all. I accept what the trinitarians claim about the trinity. But I reject that claim for it is worship of three distinct gods disguised as 'one.' It seems your accusing the wrong side of innuendo, misrepresentation, exaggeration, etc. Look at your own words.
 
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fieldsofwind

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Posted by Kain: "Can an apple be an orange at the same time? A logical fallacy. By definition, an apple is not an oragne and vice versa. Also by definition, a God is not a man and vice versa. God says He is not a man and He doesn't change."

So you think that God can not change... since you're using this to assume 'state of being'... then I guess I could assume that He can not change His covenant??? God doesn't 'change' right??? What exactly does change mean then... guess He can't 'change the world' either ........ Exactly my point... God saying that He does not change has nothing to do with 'state of being'.... it has everything to do with who GOD is... which goes far beyond any particular 'form'. God became a man... while at the same time... being God. He became the Son...making Himself nothing... TAKING the nature of a servant... of a man, (this does not mean that He IS a man...no more, no less... like you or I... which is the 'man' thing that you referred to), so that He could become our sin.

God cannot be in the presence of sin, but out of His love for us He desired to take away that sin. This is why He took the nature of men... and took its penalty of death... even death on a cross. He became subservient to Himself... the Father. Now you say... He can't do that... and I tell you the truth... YES HE CAN!

Read this dialoge between myself and edpobre... it is one with which he has yet to respond to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

you are the one that refered to 'thing'

Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

Did God not make the covenant???

The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

I believe
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
You want to teach me math Pobre? God the Father, God the Creator, God the Savior, God the Redeemer, God the Lord of Hosts, and God the Holy. How many times do you count God in that sentence? Be honest please. You say it is the same God? Now you are catching on.

Are God the Savior, God the Redeemer, God the Lord of Hosts God the Holy "persons" of the "Godhead" too?

What I am asking you to count are your so-called "persons" of the "Godhead" or Trinity, namely 1) God the Father; 2) God the Son; and 3) God the Holy Spirit.

You know very well that savior, redeemer, Lord of hosts, and holy are DESCRIPTIONS of that ONE and ONLY God and are not at par with Father, Son and Holy&nbsp;Spirit.&nbsp;

So cut that "cuteness" OldShepherd and answer me HONESTLY: how many times does God appear in your "Godhead?"

What do I mean by person? According to the online dictionary. I see how rationally you can discuss things as a member of the “only true church” I wonder what four letter word starting with “S” you wrote there that got censored.[/b]

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&amp;r-s&amp;n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
Date: 13th century
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <CHAIRPERSON><SPOKESPERSON>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <UNLAWFUL search person the of>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection [/B]

Tell me OldShepherd, which of these definitions fit your idea of "person?"

Ed
 
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