EASTER - Why Do You Celebrate A Pagan Fertility Goddess Festival? Why Not Passover?

Originally Posted by GerTzedek
Oh, but I understand ALL too well what is meant by "The church is Israel." It is still identity theft. And it still nurtures the anti-semitism that led to pogroms and the holocaust. It is not just mistaken doctrine, it is BAD doctrine, and led to evil actions.

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Actually it isn't "identity theft".

There were both Jew and non-Jew "Israelites". We just happen to be non-Jew Israelites though my citizenship is in earthly USA but my Heavenly citizenship is "Up-Above".

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

Every Jewish historian of note, and all encyclopaedias, Jewish and otherwise, agree that only a tiny remnant of so-called Jews is Semitic. None of these possess the faith of Abraham and few worship according to Yahweh Torah instituted by Moses. The few who are not atheistic or agnostic mostly follow Talmudic Judaism which is Pharisaism and anathema to Moses and the prophets.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Actually it isn't "identity theft".

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Actually it is. Identity theft BY DEFINTIION is when you use a person's name and identity without THEIR PERMISSION. If a person is born gentile, and never adopted (converted) into the People of Israel (and thus never accepted as family by them), they have been granted NO PERMISSION to use the name of Israel by those to whom this name belongs.

There were both Jew and non-Jew "Israelites". We just happen to be non-Jew Israelites

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There is NO SUCH THING.

though my citizenship is in earthly USA but my Heavenly citizenship is "Up-Above".

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I have no idea the state of your soul, but lets assume you are correct. This would NOT make you part of Israel. It would make you part of the People of God, and part of the Commonwealth of Israel. But NOT Israel, and NOT an Israelite.

Every Jewish historian of note, and all encyclopaedias, Jewish and otherwise, agree that only a tiny remnant of so-called Jews is Semitic. None of these possess the faith of Abraham and few worship according to Yahweh Torah instituted by Moses. The few who are not atheistic or agnostic mostly follow Talmudic Judaism which is Pharisaism and anathema to Moses and the prophets.

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You REALLY need to stay off of the anti-Semitic websites. You actually believe their garbage.

The truth is twofold:

1. Even Ashkenazic Jews from Northern Russian can be shown in DNA testing to be related to Semitic Jews living in Israel.
2. Israel is a PEOPLE, not DNA. A Convert is a true Jew. Let's say an ethnic Chinese woman converts to Judaism as Ruth did. She is now truly a Jew, adopted fully into the People of Israel. Her children will be Jews.

Now do us all a favor and try to be a little pickier what sources you choose to believe. Just because it's on the net, just because it's in a book, just because it comes from the mouth of someone in a pulpit, doesn't mean it's true.

Jipsah said:

I was assured by one brother that there were no "real Christians" among the Palestinians. They're most of 'em Orthodox, so they don't really count. And anyway, Israel can do no wrong.

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Why would you assume a person is not a Christian simply because they are Orthodox?

And BTW, not all Palestinian Christians are Greek Orthodox. There are also Maronite Catholics , Melkite Catholics, Jacobites (a branch of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch), Latin rite Catholics, Syrian Catholics, Coptic (Oriental Orthodox), Anglicans and miscellaneous Protestants denominations.

Israel can of course do wrong. And individual Israelis can of course do wrong. That isn't REALLY the question, though, is it???????

The REAL question is, overall, which side is in the right, and which side is behaving far better than the other? In that respect there can be no question -- there is simply no moral comparability between bulldozing the home suspected of connection with terrorist activities and blowing up and mutilating as many innocent men, women, and children as possible; there is no moral comparability between occupying a land and people for one's own defense, and wishing to utterly destroy a nation and people.

Most Christians in the Holy Land are part of the Orthodox Church though.

GerTzedek said:

Why would you assume a person is not a Christian simply because they are Orthodox?

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I think his "tongue was in his cheek"

We have been adopted into the family of Israel as children by Jesus Christ Himself:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:4-5 KJVA)

Oblio said:

We have been adopted into the family of Israel as children by Jesus Christ Himself:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:4-5 KJVA)

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Yes, we have been adopted into "God's family". What's more you can look at Gal 3:16 and say that we have become children of Abraham. But even being children of Abraham does not make us Israel. Abraham had more than one child, but only Isaac led to Israel. Isaac had more than one child, but only the descendants of Jacob are Israel.

Now we have in some sense been "grafted into" the olive tree (Romans 11), which is representative of Israel in the OT. But Romans 11 also says that Israel was blinded by God, that all Israel will be saved, and that they WILL be grafted back in.

Abraham had more than one child, but only Isaac led to Israel. Isaac had more than one child, but only the descendants of Jacob are Israel.

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We [Christians] are the Spiritual children of God, of the Freewoman [The Church], not of the Slavewoman [Those under the Law, the OT Jews].

Oblio said:

We [Christians] are the Spiritual children of God, of the Freewoman [The Church], not of the Slavewoman [Those under the Law, the OT Jews].

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Sure, we are adopted into God's family, and as heirs, so we are His children. Sure we are of the church, so if you want to say we are children of the church, I'm fine with that.

Two things I would point out though, is that by dismissing the Jews out of hand you are ignoring the Jewish roots of our faith. The Christian faith is merely advanced Judaism, we have received the Jewish Meshiach (Messiah).

And secondly, nothing you said there is in any way, shape or form a justification for saying that we ARE Israel as has been said by some in this thread.

Two things I would point out though, is that by dismissing the Jews out of hand you are ignoring the Jewish roots of our faith.

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Being Eastern Orthodox, I am more aware [by virtue of our praxis] of our Jewish roots than you are.

Oblio said:

Being Eastern Orthodox, I am more aware [by virtue of our praxis] of our Jewish roots than you are.

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Being an MJ, no you are not. More aware than many, and I missed that you were EO, so I am sorry, I do realize that the EO's are more aware of this than other church sects by and large.

MJ's (IMO) have reinvented Protestantism to attempt to return to the ancient roots of Christianity (Jewish elements included). Eastern Orthodoxy has preserved that praxis for 2000 years. We applaud your efforts and zeal, but there is no need to 'reproduce' the ancient faith when the original is with us.

GerTzedek said:

Why would you assume a person is not a Christian simply because they are Orthodox?

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I don't; I have a working brain. My "Jews is just like Christians only better" brother took that stupid position.

Israel can of course do wrong. And individual Israelis can of course do wrong.

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Anti-semite! Anti-semite!

That isn't REALLY the question, though, is it???????

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Sure it is. Any negative comment about the state of Israel or Jews as a group is immediately blasted as "anti-semitic". It's simple manipulative hogwash, designed to stifle criticism.

The REAL question is, overall, which side is in the right, and which side is behaving far better than the other?

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Sp we're goinmg to play "I haven't sinned as much as Bob has, so I'm good and Bob's bad", right? Wrong. If Bob has sinned and I have sinned, we're both sinners.

In that respect there can be no question -- there is simply no moral comparability between bulldozing the home suspected of connection with terrorist activities and blowing up and mutilating as many innocent men, women, and children as possible

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All kinda depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it? It's a feedback loop, with each side feeding off the offenses of the other, and each pointing to the other as the Bad Guy. There's enough blame there to go around, but say, or even imply, the Israel may not be squeaky clean, and you're an anti-semite.

; there is no moral comparability between occupying a land and people for one's own defense, and wishing to utterly destroy a nation and people.

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Most of the folks who end up bulldozed (or blown up, or shot, or whatever) don't have any particular desire to utterly destroy anyone. They just want to feed their kids and get on with their lives. Then the Israelis, in response to some Muslim outrage, comes and flattens their house, destroys all their stuff, and maybe offs a couple of the kids. Then those folks decide that, yeah, destroying Israel utterly isn't such a bad idea, and they strap on the dynamite belt and blow up a school bus or some such. In response, the Israels bulldoze a neighborhood, maybe croak a couple of kids, and create, in effect, the next dynamite outrage. And around and around and around it goes, seemingly world without end.

And I'm supposed to cheer for one side or the other? HA! If that makes me an anti-semite, so be it.

Oblio said:

MJ's (IMO) have reinvented Protestantism to attempt to return to the ancient roots of Christianity (Jewish elements included). Eastern Orthodoxy has preserved that praxis for 2000 years. We applaud your efforts and zeal, but there is no need to 'reproduce' the ancient faith when the original is with us.

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With all due respect, the Orthodox do not follow the Torah. They do not observe Sabbath, New Moon or the Festivals.

With all due respect, the Orthodox do not follow the Torah. They do not observe Sabbath, New Moon or the Festivals.

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Neither did the Apostles or the Apostolic Fathers who were taught by them. What they (and we) preserve are those elements of the Jewish faith applicable to the faith once delivered unto the Saints.

BereanTodd said:

Sure, we are adopted into God's family, and as heirs, so we are His children. Sure we are of the church, so if you want to say we are children of the church, I'm fine with that.

Two things I would point out though, is that by dismissing the Jews out of hand you are ignoring the Jewish roots of our faith. The Christian faith is merely advanced Judaism, we have received the Jewish Meshiach (Messiah).

And secondly, nothing you said there is in any way, shape or form a justification for saying that we ARE Israel as has been said by some in this thread.

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I want to ask.... since you were adopted that would make you Gentile.

Were the Gentiles ever held to the Torah laws?

No.

There is the answer.
In fact the converted Jews were no longer held to as per Paul getting angry over the Jews trying to coerce the gentiles into following the Torah.

MandM said:

With all due respect, the Orthodox do not follow the Torah. They do not observe Sabbath, New Moon or the Festivals.

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Neither did the early Church.

And as the EO also have the liturgy familiar to the Jews in the synagogues...the Catholics also share that root with Judaism.

But that is pretty much all the Apostles took with them.. was the celebration Rite. All the Mosiac laws were not maintained.

Trying to bring them back is exactly what Paul derided.

If Paul derided observing the Law, then why did Paul keep it to the end of his life?

Please read Acts 25:8.

MandM said:

If Paul derided observing the Law, then why did Paul keep it to the end of his life?

Please read Acts 25:8.

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Paul was a Jew. He derided the Jews attempting to force the Gentiles to observe Jewish ceremonial law.

I use Easter as a day to celebrate Christ's resurrection, but I believe it should be celebrated every day...

Celticflower said:

Kinda early for this topic -- usually doesn't come around until Feb/Mar.

One problem with celebrating Passover instead of Easter--you aren't celebrating the resurrection, but an OT instituted feast day which has little or no bearing on the Christian (other than being the way we date Easter each year).

As far as it being a "pagan" holiday -- haven't you heard of the concept of the common made holy? Maybe Christians did usurp some of the symbols of the old religions for their own new celebrations, but oftimes it made it easier to convert some peoples because they didn't have to totally give up the social gatherings and traditions related to the older religion. Most people today don't know or don't care about the old meanings of the symbols from the old religions -- they only care about what it means to them here and now.

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Halloween and Easter both have pagan origins, but have now been "sanctified" by most churches as being harmless and holy. Just more evidence that the majority of churches that exist nowadays are part of "Babylon", and are not walking in light of the Bible, but instead have exalted pagan traditons.