Experiences in our lives

Im_A · Oct 8, 2007

i hope this fits this forum, so here i go because i miss talk about philosophy instead of only talk trying to prove or disprove the existence of God:

do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through? i suppose tempting the discussion of free-will vs. cause and effect.

look forward to the responses.

tapero · Oct 8, 2007

tattedsaint said:
i hope this fits this forum, so here i go because i miss talk about philosophy instead of only talk trying to prove or disprove the existence of God:

do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through? i suppose tempting the discussion of free-will vs. cause and effect.

look forward to the responses.

Hi,

I would think it depends on the situation.

For example: a person's child dies. or a crime occurs to a person or their child. accident or illness.

One really wouldn't control the effects of such occuring to them such as this and many other things.

For others seemingly minor things to another person can bring up old trauma and same thing; can't control the effects.

Depending on how able a person is (if Christian, as am speaking from my perspective) to let the word heal and help them through these things may of course be in their control to do so. However, no one should ever say, you know x about what the bible says and should not be feeling this way.

That is so wrong, and many teach just that.

Same as for a non christian, if dealing with above, no one should say, well, at least you got feet.

Used to work in Recovery forums, seen insensitivity occsionally to those suffering. Thankfully, most in Recovery Forums help each other, and using guilt tactics or bible verses to condemn people for how they feel is fairly awful.

Never experienced death of a love one, and don't know much about grief, but there are four stages we go thru in grief. They occur and can not be controlled. Maybe some can, but is a normal part of going thru grief.

On the other hand if someone says something unkind or hurtful to us, we can hang on to it or let it go. But again, if someone has been abused, and has never recovered, is not going to be able to control the feelings facing.

It all depends on where we've been, what's occured, our personalities, many factors, our support system if any, etc.

take care,
tapero

WingsOfTheNeophyte · Oct 8, 2007

tattedsaint said:
do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through?

That really depends on our level of self control. If we are guided by emotion, and just reacting to circumstances, then controlling the effects of our experiences is a futile thing.

If we are in full cognitive control of our thoughts, emotions, actions and impulses, then we are fully able to control the effects of our experiences.

I would say there is free will. But the significant majority of us doesn't use it.

JahGentle · Oct 9, 2007

The emotions make it difficult but the only past I can have is the one I create now and it's always now.
all perspective, i dunno
cool q

peace

Im_A · Oct 10, 2007

WingsOfTheNeophyte said:
That really depends on our level of self control. If we are guided by emotion, and just reacting to circumstances, then controlling the effects of our experiences is a futile thing.

If we are in full cognitive control of our thoughts, emotions, actions and impulses, then we are fully able to control the effects of our experiences.

I would say there is free will. But the significant majority of us doesn't use it.

agreed. but i wonder what it means to be in complete control.

meaning, something bad can happen, a change occurs, either one it is out of control or let's say for the moment that change is because someone is in complete control of their emotions and the change is based from that control. to some, it is seen as a change that occured outside of free-will...but to others or the person themself, it is seen as a change that is/was all in the realm of self-control/free-will.

NavyGuy7 · Oct 10, 2007

tattedsaint said:
i hope this fits this forum, so here i go because i miss talk about philosophy instead of only talk trying to prove or disprove the existence of God:

do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through? i suppose tempting the discussion of free-will vs. cause and effect.

look forward to the responses.

Sometimes we can, such as choosing whether to drink and then drive. Other times, we cannot, because someone else's choice has been forced upon us. Sometimes. It really depends on the situation, I suppose.

And ya know, I'm not sure those discussions lately are entirely philosophy. I looked up the definition. It's the study of human emotion and behavior.

elman · Oct 11, 2007

tattedsaint said:
i hope this fits this forum, so here i go because i miss talk about philosophy instead of only talk trying to prove or disprove the existence of God:

do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through? i suppose tempting the discussion of free-will vs. cause and effect.

look forward to the responses.

No We cannot control our experiences, but we can sometimes have an effect on them.

MorkandMindy · Oct 12, 2007

tattedsaint said:
i hope this fits this forum, so here i go because i miss talk about philosophy instead of only talk trying to prove or disprove the existence of God:

do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through? i suppose tempting the discussion of free-will vs. cause and effect.

look forward to the responses.

I understand that is the core of Buddhism - that pain is part of life but suffering comes from our mindset.

tapero · Oct 12, 2007

MorkandMindy said:
I understand that is the core of Buddhism - that pain is part of life but suffering comes from our mindset.

ah, not sure if you're last part is making a statement or is saying the core of buddhism.

either way i disagree,

child dies, one suffers
car accident, one suffers
and the many other endless sufferings

no matter how much one wills not to suffer, people do suffer and it ain't cause our mind isn't strong enough to overcome it, it's cause we're human enough to feel real pain and suffer...

depending on what occured, we do have control over how long such goes on to some extent depending on our personalities and weakeness and strengths etc. and severity of what occured or is ongoing.

some may never be able to stop suffering..and it isn't cause of a weak mind, or inability to control

there is so much sufferng in the world and any real world view recognizes such, and can not say, well, it's all how you manage it.

when it hits home... then we'll see.

this is not directed to the poster in this post who i quoted, just a general statement.

MorkandMindy · Oct 13, 2007

tapero said:
ah, not sure if you're last part is making a statement or is saying the core of buddhism.

either way i disagree,

child dies, one suffers
car accident, one suffers
and the many other endless sufferings

no matter how much one wills not to suffer, people do suffer and it ain't cause our mind isn't strong enough to overcome it, it's cause we're human enough to feel real pain and suffer...

depending on what occured, we do have control over how long such goes on to some extent depending on our personalities and weakeness and strengths etc. and severity of what occured or is ongoing.

some may never be able to stop suffering..and it isn't cause of a weak mind, or inability to control

there is so much sufferng in the world and any real world view recognizes such, and can not say, well, it's all how you manage it.

when it hits home... then we'll see.

this is not directed to the poster in this post who i quoted, just a general statement.

Yes, I was referring to the simpler problem:

From the little I know of Buddhism it seems to have a good point that a lot of suffering is unnecessary because pain need not result in suffering. As he died the Buddah said 'I am in pain but I am not suffering'.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven." - John Milton

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

(I do realize that long term very serious pain can be a lot more difficult than pain known to have a short duration)

But there is a more difficult one:

You have indicated examples of suffering caused through mental anguish, not from physical pain, and that is different animal.

Buddhism also deals with this emotional suffering by stating that 'suffering comes from attachment'.

I have little doubt that is a true statement, but I'm not convinced it is good to reduce a person's attachments.

So now I dare to differ with a philosophy of life that has changed the World (indirectly it is key to both Western and Eastern thinking) and still doing very well after 2,500 years.

But I can only believe things I understand and agree with. I am not at present willing to cut attachments to avoid pain.

"Where there is love, there is pain." - Spanish Proverb

Solidlyhere · Oct 13, 2007

The OP asks: "do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through?"

Well, in many cases, we DO.

If someone calls me a bad name, I have the wherewithal to ignore it.
This act has controlled the effect.

If I win the lottery, I might be excited.
OR, I can control the effect, and be sad.

So, the question is: Do I have any power over my REACTION to things that happen?
Well, if I didn't, then I would be pretty immature.

quatona · Oct 13, 2007

tattedsaint said:
i

do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through?
i suppose tempting the discussion of free-will vs. cause and effect.

I observe people who are better in controlling the effects of their experiences than others. Doesn´t mean that this is ability is not an effect of a cause that is beyond their control, though.

tapero · Oct 13, 2007

MorkandMindy said:
Yes, I was referring to the simpler problem:

From the little I know of Buddhism it seems to have a good point that a lot of suffering is unnecessary because pain need not result in suffering. As he died the Buddah said 'I am in pain but I am not suffering'.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven." - John Milton

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

(I do realize that long term very serious pain can be a lot more difficult than pain known to have a short duration)

But there is a more difficult one:

You have indicated examples of suffering caused through mental anguish, not from physical pain, and that is different animal.

Buddhism also deals with this emotional suffering by stating that 'suffering comes from attachment'.

I have little doubt that is a true statement, but I'm not convinced it is good to reduce a person's attachments.

So now I dare to differ with a philosophy of life that has changed the World (indirectly it is key to both Western and Eastern thinking) and still doing very well after 2,500 years.

But I can only believe things I understand and agree with. I am not at present willing to cut attachments to avoid pain.

"Where there is love, there is pain." - Spanish Proverb

Hi brother,

Thanks for explaining things.

this:

If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

when someone is being knived, raped, tortured, that external bit is the thing itself.

Just the fact that one is about to undergo serious situation, the pain inside is overwhelming and a reality.

In other words, if I am about to be gang raped, i have great fear and pain.

Disassociation is more what your first quote speaks to which not all can achieve when in pain.

suffering from attachment; hmmm

let's see, 911..i wasn't very attached to the people as a matter of fact not at all, but i suffered, for their suffering..

not attached to those who went thru the holocaust but suffered when i learned of such.

agai not long term, but long enough.

as well with other atrocities in this world.

looks like some messed up thinking there,not yours but what you are teaching buddishm is, which may of course not be buddishm, so no offense to anyone who is, but the first bit, with buddah dying, who i never knew was even a person, is called disassoication whch some can achieve and others can not..

tke cre,
tpero :hug:

MorkandMindy · Oct 14, 2007

I was trying to start simple with pain on it's own. Recently I had a hernia op and there was pain, but I knew there was also healing and it would go away. Also I knew it was unavoidable and wasn't deliberately inflicted because the surgeon was a genuinely nice Scottish man, in so far as I could understand what he was saying.

You are bringing in anticipation and that is really the kicker, people get injured: a axe slips or something, and cope as well as possible. But seeing the needle, the wipe of the isopropanol, etc brings the anticipation, so that a small anticipated pain, much less than any wasp sting, feels like a lot more than it is.

Anticipation is a separate issue, it increases what ever is anticipated, in joy it is a big bonus, in pain it multiplies the pain.

And you've also brought in the issue of the involvement of others and deliberate actions, power of others over self. That causes me to suffer. No, I don't know what to do about it.

And the point about Buddha. A Buddha is a person who comes to wisdom on their own, and therefore it is a title rather than a specific person. 'The Buddha' refers to Siddhartha Gautama, raised as a prince who it was hoped would one day become king, in an area that is now just over the border of India in Nepal. I guess it could be claimed any historical person did not exist but that would make history pretty meaningless. Some such as Hercules almost certainly didn't and others like Queen Elizabeth I almost certainly did.

Often language hides meaning. Broadly I guess Buddha could be translated 'philosopher', and therefore Buddhism as a philosophy of life. This is getting long, not sure I'm allowed to push the 'Post QUICK Reply' button

tapero · Oct 14, 2007

MorkandMindy said:
I was trying to start simple with pain on it's own. Recently I had a hernia op and there was pain, but I knew there was also healing and it would go away. Also I knew it was unavoidable and wasn't deliberately inflicted because the surgeon was a genuinely nice Scottish man, in so far as I could understand what he was saying.

You are bringing in anticipation and that is really the kicker, people get injured: a axe slips or something, and cope as well as possible. But seeing the needle, the wipe of the isopropanol, etc brings the anticipation, so that a small anticipated pain, much less than any wasp sting, feels like a lot more than it is.

Anticipation is a separate issue, it increases what ever is anticipated, in joy it is a big bonus, in pain it multiplies the pain.

And you've also brought in the issue of the involvement of others and deliberate actions, power of others over self. That causes me to suffer. No, I don't know what to do about it.

And the point about Buddha. A Buddha is a person who comes to wisdom on their own, and therefore it is a title rather than a specific person. 'The Buddha' refers to Siddhartha Gautama, raised as a prince who it was hoped would one day become king, in an area that is now just over the border of India in Nepal. I guess it could be claimed any historical person did not exist but that would make history pretty meaningless. Some such as Hercules almost certainly didn't and others like Queen Elizabeth I almost certainly did.

Often language hides meaning. Broadly I guess Buddha could be translated 'philosopher', and therefore Buddhism as a philosophy of life. This is getting long, not sure I'm allowed to push the 'Post QUICK Reply' button

Thanks for your post. Yeah, I knew I was weak on the anticipation - figures you'd catch me.

What about disasociation though; you didn't mention that, and would like your take.

thanks,
tapero :hug:

Im_A · Oct 15, 2007

Solidlyhere said:
The OP asks: "do you believe we all can control the effects of the experiences we go through?"

Well, in many cases, we DO.

If someone calls me a bad name, I have the wherewithal to ignore it.
This act has controlled the effect.

If I win the lottery, I might be excited.
OR, I can control the effect, and be sad.

So, the question is: Do I have any power over my REACTION to things that happen?
Well, if I didn't, then I would be pretty immature.

well can you honestly say that if you won riches you'd be sad? maybe you'd be on your knees praising God, but i don't think you'd be sad for having money to help out your life, or give to the poor.

and if someone calls you a bad name, would it matter any more if it came from a stranger or from someone you know really well?

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