A Picture of the Rapture - "The Jewish Wedding"

...Jewish Weddings...

Click to expand...

What are the ancient Jewish sources for any wedding customs that would require a pre-trib rapture?

...The Guests...

Click to expand...

I believe we can be the bride and the guests, for while the bride is one, she is made up of many members (1 Corinthians 12:12), which were all invited by the preaching of the gospel to become part of the body of Christ, though some believers will be subsequently rejected because of unrepentant unrighteousness (Matthew 22:2-14; Revelation 16:15, 19:8; Matthew 25:26, 30; Matthew 7:21).

...Those saved after the Rapture...

Click to expand...

Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be d*amned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

edit: [ * The posting program isn't accepting this word]

...The wedding already occurred in heaven...

Click to expand...

Note that the Bible shows neither the judgment nor the marriage of the church as happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

The marriage and supper are not announced until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14).

"The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

BUMP

bump

Common spiritual sense also tells us that the bridegroom wont allow his bride to be molested and beaten by the anti-Christ for 7 yrs or 3.5 years before he marries her. *LOL

Just imagine: you are waiting in church and when your bride arrives, she all beaten up, raped, torn and tattered with a black eye and bruises. And she screams:"How cld you have left me behind!"

No you'd expect your bride to be all glorious and beautiful (establised in righteousness and adorned with the gifts of the Holy Spirit) and totally in love with you on your wedding day.

...the bridegroom wont allow his bride to be molested and beaten...

Click to expand...

Didn't Jesus let his bride go through the terrible days of persecution and martyrdom under the Roman emperors? How will our tribulation under the Antichrist be any different? "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29). When Christians suffer and die, are they really harmed? "To live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21); "Some of you shall they cause to be put to death... But there shall not an hair of your head perish" (Luke 21:16, 18); "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"Didn't Jesus let his bride go through the terrible days of persecution and martyrdom under the Roman emperors?"

Yes but it wasnt the wedding time then. And yes, there will still be people who go through persecution and martyrdom but these are the ones who are left behind in the rapture (non-Christians) and who then believe in Christ (convert) after they realised "the Christians were right all along!" I mean when the world sees millions of Christians disappear in an atomic second, there will be those who can put 2 and 2 together.

Originally posted by Andrew
And yes, there will still be people who go through persecution and martyrdom but these are the ones who are left behind in the rapture (non-Christians) and who then believe in Christ (convert) after they realised "the Christians were right all along!" 

Click to expand...

IS there any particular scripture(s) you are referring to here?

Where exactly does the Bible teach that people will convert to Christianity during the tribulation?

I see a huge oxymoron with that theory, for the "Church" the Bride of Christ, indeed the Body of Christ, is made up of one thing... "Believers".

Scripture confirms that the Church is one body of believers, and that body can not be seperated by anything, even death. If you are a believer, you are within the Body of Christ.

The only way your theory would work, as far as I can tell, would be if those who "convert" to Christianity during the trib (thus becoming an inseperable part of the "Body of Christ") would have to be be personally raptured into that "body of previously raptured believers, at the "atomic second" of their conversion.

But there is as much scripture to support that as there is to support sinners "Converting to Christianity" during the trib. Nada.

 

I guess it's back to square one....

"Scripture confirms that the Church is one body of believers, and that body can not be seperated by anything, even death."

But we're not saying that the body is being separated. Indeed in the end they will still be with God. If we use your reasoning, then believers who have died have been separated from the body of Christ, becos some of us are down here and some of us are up there. How is this a "separation" to the inseparable body of Christ, but a temporary and physical one?

...the ones who weren't ready when the Bridegroom came...

Click to expand...

In the parable of the 10 virgins, some believe the wise virgins must be taken in a pre-trib rapture. But note that the door is closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

I believe Christians will either be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming or they will be lost, as the 5 foolish virgins are lost: "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:10-12).

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:23-28).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23).

...it wasnt the wedding time then...

Click to expand...

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

...the ones who are left behind in the rapture...

Click to expand...

Regarding "one taken, one left," I believe that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

In the pre-trib view, how will "one taken, one left" be a secret pre-trib rapture and not an event at the revelation of Jesus, when "even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:30, 36)?

I believe the ones "taken" at the 2nd coming are unbelievers who are killed, just as Noah's flood "took" evil men away (Matthew 24:39-40). The carcasses of the ones "taken" are eaten by eagles and other birds (Luke 17:36-37, Job 39:30, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21).

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

The ones "gathered together" at Jesus' 2nd coming are his elect (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). So I believe Christians won't be the ones "taken" or the ones "left," but the ones "gathered together."

...who then believe in Christ (convert)...

Click to expand...

Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation, but says that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be d*amned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). So it's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation are us, saved before the tribulation began. Jesus doesn't promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

[*The posting program doesn't accept the word d-a-m-n-e-d.]

I believe giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance is dangerous. After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, unbelievers could get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"

I think instead we should warn them: "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

Postrib

As long as a person is alive he or she gets thousands of chances to become saved. Every day can be another chance, or hour, or minute is a chance for a person to become saved, as long as they are alive. It is after a physical death, when the chances or lost. There is no chance for salvation after physical death, because one has died in their own sin. Saying those who are not saved and do not get raptured are some how getting a 2nd chance, as unto death is a wrong conclusion. Peace, but not yet.

Originally posted by postrib
chance, right?"

I think instead we should warn them: "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

Click to expand...

 

I'll give an AMEN to that.  Too much is still unclear to us at this point.

Originally posted by Andrew

But we're not saying that the body is being separated. Indeed in the end they will still be with God. If we use your reasoning, then believers who have died have been separated from the body of Christ, becos some of us are down here and some of us are up there. How is this a "separation" to the inseparable body of Christ, but a temporary and physical one?

Click to expand...

Perhaps you misunderstood me.

I am simply pointing out that saying "The Church" will not be on earth during  the tribulation, while also saying "Believers" will, is an oxymoron.

There are no believers apart from the "Church"

The Idea of "tribulation converts" automatically places "the Church" smack dab in the middle of the trib, for once one converts to Christianity, they instantly become an inseperable part of Christ's Body, The Church, on earth.

Such is the pre-trib rapture paradox.