Jesus is fully God & fully man

Status
Not open for further replies.

OldShepherd

Zaqunraah
Mar 11, 2002
7,156
174
EST
✟21,242.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by Starscream
Here's an effective response I've learned while posting here:

LOL!  Starscream could show himself right to your face and you would still not believe!

I pray that your heart will soften, time is running out!

Still, I suppose I could be a computer program, or a team of guys trying to dis Christianity (or something else).  I challenge you to use such skepticism on your religion.

Assinine irrelevant comment. I believe my first reply was to havoc. And I said there is more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that you (Havoc) exist. Then SS jumped into it it somehow. I can also say that there is more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that I do.

There has certainly been more written about Jesus than there has been about all of us together. If you scroll back a bit I believe I posted archaeological evidence dating to 41 AD.

And what does all of this have do with my heart being hard or soft? I have used this same skepticism on my religion. I have investigated it for several more years than you have been alive. And since as I said there is so much evidence of the existence of Jesus I need proof to the contrary. Do you have any? Or can I expect the same old reworked nonsequitur arguments I have seen for the last several decades.
 
Upvote 0

edpobre

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2002
1,377
37
NEW YORK
✟3,067.00
Originally posted by OldShepherd
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc. then what's the problem?

Oldshepherd,

Yes, with God all things are possible. The problem is, does God WANT to CHANGE from God to MAN?

Is it possible for you to kill OldShepherd? Of course, it is, right? But do you WANT to kill OldShepherd?

Elementary OldShepherd! Show me where God WANTS to BECOME a MAN  OldShepherd and I'll SALUTE  you!

Ed
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Site Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟58,262.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by gunnysgt
My area of contention is that Iglesia ni cristo is stating that one can only be saved by the work of Jesus Christ, only if one is a member of Iglesia ni cristo.

This makes one think that the work of Jesus Christ upon the cross at Calvary is not sufficient in of itself for salvation.

This makes one come to the conclusion that the members of Iglesia ni cristo are privy to some secret knowledge apart from what God's Word states regarding the doctrine of Salvation.
 
Upvote 0
Originally posted by OldShepherd
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all [logical] things are possible.

The gospel according to Kain. If the Bible doesn't say what you want it to, just rewrite it to suit whatever fantasy you are promoting at the time. I don't believe that the creator or the universe is confined by our puny human logic, reason, "laws of gravity", etc. etc. etc. And I think He said as much in Isaiah 55. And God can create a boulder so big He can't move it. But all He would have to do is uncreate it then recreate it somewhere else.

This feeble attempt does nothing to my argument. If God created a boulder so big He can't lift it, his omnipotence is lost. Uncreating and recreating elsewhere isn't lifting. But this is a logical falacy.

The same applied to percentage. From the language definition of percent, it is anything from 0 part of a whole to the whole entirely. The percentage divides one whole into any number of pieces.

To say that God is one whole AND another whole is a logical falacy.

God is one whole 100%, there are no other wholes besides Him. Scripture makes this very clear.
God is not a man. Scripture also makes this clear.

But according to the gospel of trinity, the trinity god is both 100% man and 100% god(and 100% spirit) making three distinct wholes.

It is not I who is rewriting scripture.

God is a spirit who is 100% God. Jesus was 100% man representing God.
 
Upvote 0

OldShepherd

Zaqunraah
Mar 11, 2002
7,156
174
EST
✟21,242.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by Kain
This feeble attempt does nothing to my argument. If God created a boulder so big He can't lift it, his omnipotence is lost. Uncreating and recreating elsewhere isn't lifting. But this is a logical falacy.

The same applied to percentage. From the language definition of percent, it is anything from 0 part of a whole to the whole entirely. The percentage divides one whole into any number of pieces.

To say that God is one whole AND another whole is a logical falacy.

God is one whole 100%, there are no other wholes besides Him. Scripture makes this very clear.
God is not a man. Scripture also makes this clear.

But according to the gospel of trinity, the trinity god is both 100% man and 100% god(and 100% spirit) making three distinct wholes.

It is not I who is rewriting scripture.

God is a spirit who is 100% God. Jesus was 100% man representing God.
What is there about this response that is contradictory and shoots your entire argument in the foot? I'll check back tomorrow for your attempt to salvage this.

Mkytbsxmm ytbsxmw Mkykrdm ykrd whbg Nk Uram Myms whbg-yk
 
Upvote 0

OldShepherd

Zaqunraah
Mar 11, 2002
7,156
174
EST
✟21,242.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by edpobre
Yes, with God all things are possible. The problem is, does God WANT to CHANGE from God to MAN?

Is it possible for you to kill OldShepherd? Of course, it is, right? But do you WANT to kill OldShepherd?

Elementary OldShepherd! Show me where God WANTS to BECOME a MAN  OldShepherd and I'll SALUTE  you! Ed

Here it is Ed. Since your false church claims to have the only true interpretation of scripture, interpret and translate this and tell me how it is mistranslated or twisted by Trinitarians and all the other nonsense. Should be a breeze for someone from the only true church.

outwV gar hgaphsen o qeoV ton kosmon wste ton uion autou ton monogenh edwken ina paV o pisteuwn eiV auton mh apolhtai all ech zwhn aiwnion
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gunny

Remnant
Site Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟58,262.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by s0uljah
edpobre-
Are you part of a cult?



Originally posted by edpobre
No, I'm a part of the ONLY truth. You are. I'm sure about that.
Ed



MATTHEW 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

MATTHEW 24:5
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



Examine Iglesia ni Cristi
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Site Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟58,262.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by s0uljah
edpobre-
Are you part of a cult?



Originally posted by edpobre
No, I'm a part of the ONLY truth. You are. I'm sure about that.
Ed



MATTHEW 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

MATTHEW 24:5
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



Examine Iglesia ni Cristi
 
Upvote 0

edpobre

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2002
1,377
37
NEW YORK
✟3,067.00
Originally posted by gunnysgt
MATTHEW 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

MATTHEW 24:5
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

"My dear friends,

do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.

This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the ENEMY of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3 Today's English Version).

Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a  HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.

Do Trinitarians have the Spirit of God? The Bible says NO! Those who PERSECUTE the Iglesia Ni Cristo are TRINITARIANS. Should you believe them? The Bible says NO!

Ed



 
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Site Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟58,262.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally posted by edpobre
"My dear friends,

do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
Like Jesus, Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that he was SENT by God and BACKED UP his belief by prophecies recorded in the Bible like what Jesus did. Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT doctrines from God like what Jesus did.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
because it is in the Philippines where this TRUE "Church of Christ" RE-EMERGED.
As anyone can SEE, these doctrinal statements are NOT mandated by the INC Administration but are MANDATED by God THROUGH the INC Administration.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
Like Jesus, Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT that he was SENT by God and BACKED UP his belief by prophecies recorded in the Bible like what Jesus did. Bro. Felix Manalo TAUGHT doctrines from God like what Jesus did.
Ed

Originally posted by edpobre
because it is in the Philippines where this TRUE "Church of Christ" RE-EMERGED.
As anyone can SEE, these doctrinal statements are NOT mandated by the INC Administration but are MANDATED by God THROUGH the INC Administration.
Ed


Originally posted by edpobre
The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the TRUE church of Christ in these last days.
Thus, ONLY members of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO WILL be saved!




That's TRUE! The work of Christ on the cross is NOT sufficient in of itself for salvation
One must ENTER the FOLD or FLOCK in order to be SAVED. That fold or flock is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the TRUE church of Christ in these last days.

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the TRUE church of Christ in these last days. It has been GIVEN to them to KNOW The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven THROUGH a MESSENGER commissioned by God THROUGH Bible PROPHECIES.
Ed 
 





Alpha and Omega


The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit


Is the Creedal Doctrine of Trinity Biblical


A brief declaration and vindication of the Trinity


The following links provide information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, it's founder, their doctrine, who they state Jesus is?, what Salvation is according to their man-made doctrinal beliefs, the control they adminster to it's members, their deceptive practices, and the claims of the founder, Felix Manalo and his belief that he is spoken of in scripture as a messenger of God/The 5th angel.

There is a considerable amount of data that has been gathered on Iglesia ni Cristo, much of it from their own publications and former members.

I believe it is well worth the time reading over the information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, indeed.


Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Related to Christ’s divine and human natures, the Definition of Chalcedon states:
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

Although this teaches that His divine and human natures were not mixed or diluted, it does teach that they were in union. The phrases “without division,” “without separation” and “coming together to form one person and subsistence, not parted or separated into two persons” to me indicate that anything Christ experienced in his human nature was also, because of that undivided union, felt keenly by his divine nature. By consequence of that union, I do believe that Christ suffered and that His divine nature felt that suffering. If his divine nature did not feel the suffering, then it was not really suffering at all, but something akin to what we feel when anesthetized. There is an important truth contained, I believe, in the fact that Christ rejected the vinegar mixed with gall.

The suffering of Jesus was indeed the suffering of God the Son, who demonstrated His great love for us by giving His life for us. My God loves us enough to die for us. If yours doesn't, I feel sorry for you. It must be terrible to think that you are living in a universe whose Creator does not care for you that much.
 
Upvote 0

edpobre

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2002
1,377
37
NEW YORK
✟3,067.00
Originally posted by Athanasius
Related to Christ’s divine and human natures, the Definition of Chalcedon states:
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

Although this teaches that His divine and human natures were not mixed or diluted, it does teach that they were in union. The phrases “without division,” “without separation” and “coming together to form one person and subsistence, not parted or separated into two persons” to me indicate that anything Christ experienced in his human nature was also, because of that undivided union, felt keenly by his divine nature. By consequence of that union, I do believe that Christ suffered and that His divine nature felt that suffering. If his divine nature did not feel the suffering, then it was not really suffering at all, but something akin to what we feel when anesthetized. There is an important truth contained, I believe, in the fact that Christ rejected the vinegar mixed with gall.

The suffering of Jesus was indeed the suffering of God the Son, who demonstrated His great love for us by giving His life for us. My God loves us enough to die for us. If yours doesn't, I feel sorry for you. It must be terrible to think that you are living in a universe whose Creator does not care for you that much.

Who or what is Chalcedon Atanasius? Why do you base your belief on what he or it says?

Jesus SAID: "MY doctrine is NOT mine but HIS who SENT me" (John 7:16). Therefore, whatever Jesus TAUGHT is a TEACHING of God.

Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).These are DOCTRINES of Christ and of God.

Is Chalcedon's doctrine MORE important to you than the doctrine of Christ?

My God, the CREATOR and Father of all (Malachi 2:10), does NOT die. He is IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17). He is also INVISIBLE and CANNOT be seen (1 Tim. 6:16; John 1:18).

Ed

 
 
Upvote 0
Originally posted by edpobre
Jesus SAID: "MY doctrine is NOT mine but HIS who SENT me" (John 7:16). Therefore, whatever Jesus TAUGHT is a TEACHING of God.

True. But we must combine our belief in the inerrancy of Christ's words with the humble recognition that we can err in interpreting His words.

Originally posted by edpobre
Is Chalcedon's doctrine MORE important to you than the doctrine of Christ?


Of course not. I agree with the Definition of Chalcedon only because I find it to be in agreement with the scriptures concerning doctrine of Christ. Chalcedon was a church council that met in 451 AD, partly to consider the divine and human natures of Christ.

Originally posted by edpobre
Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).These are DOCTRINES of Christ and of God.

As Barne's Notes on the NT says, "The only true God. The only God, in opposition to all false gods. What is said here is in opposition to idols, not to Jesus himself, who, in #1Jo 5:20, is called "the true God and eternal life."

Since I John 5:20 also calls Jesus "the true God," it is very plain that scripture teaches Jesus is both God and man. In light of the clear teaching of 1 John 5:20, let me ask you a similar question. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for me to ask, which is more important to you? The teaching of your church, or the teaching of Christ?

Originally posted by edpobre
My God, the CREATOR and Father of all (Malachi 2:10), does NOT die. He is IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17). He is also INVISIBLE and CANNOT be seen (1 Tim. 6:16; John 1:18).

Then how do you explain the scriptures that plainly teach men saw God? Consider the theophanies in the Old Testament, such as the Lord walking in the garden of Eden, the Lord appearing to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre (Gen 18:1) and Jacob saying "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved." (Gen 32:30)

The answer is contained in John 1:18: "No man has ever seen God [the Father] at any time, but God the only [Son], who is at the Father's side, has made Him known." (NIV)

You said that your church is a restoration of the true church. How can that be, since the early church considered Christ to be God? Here are just a few quotes from the church Fathers to prove it:

"My brethren, we must look on Christ as God." - An ancient Homily of Clement


"By the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God." - The Letter of Ignatius to the Ephesians, 1:1.


"For when they hear from us that God said, ‘It is no thanks unto you, if you love them that love you...’" -An Ancient Homily


The true spiritual church of Christ has always existed, for her foundations are unshakeable. "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." I Timothy 2:19

She has not recently sprung into existance again.

Regarding your statement that God cannot die, since he is immortal: All things are possible for God. If he chose to do so out of love for us, God the Son could have found a way to willingly lay down his life, although He is immortal. The human nature of Jesus died, and by consequence of the union of Christ's divine and human natures, Christ's divine nature experienced and felt the agonies of death as vividly as you or I will ever experience it. he refused the vinegar mixed with gall that he might fully experience the pains of death. Consider these words that a friend of mine wrote to me recently in a letter:
How about this verse, "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." (Acts 20:28). It is pretty widely agreed that blood refers to death. Luke says that God bought us with his blood which could only refer to Jesus of course.
 
Upvote 0

Defender of the Faith 777

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2002
1,121
4
Visit site
✟2,076.00
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Why does no one understand this doctrine?

The Incarnation was God taking on a body, laying aside His Godly rights, and dying for His people.

Scriptures?

Isaiah 9:6
John 20:28
COLOSSIANS 2:9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Look at my signature
Acts 20:28
John 1:1 and 14

ask me and I'll post more.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Barne's Notes On the NT, once again, has some insightful comments regarding the issue at hand:

Phillipians 2 Verse 7. But made himself of no reputation. This translation by no means conveys the sense of the original. According to this it would seem that he consented to be without distinction or honour among men; or that he was willing to be despised or disregarded. The Greek is, eauton ekenose. The word kenow means, literally, to empty, to make empty, to make vain or void. It is rendered made void in #Ro 4:14; made of none effect, #1Co 1:17; make void, #1Co 9:15; should be vain, #2Co 9:3. The word does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament, except in the passage before us. The essential idea is that of bringing to emptiness, vanity, or nothingness; and hence it is applied to a case where one lays aside his rank and dignity, and becomes, in respect to that, as nothing; that is, he assumes a more humble rank and station. In regard to its meaning here we may remark,

(1.) that it cannot mean that he literally divested himself of his Divine nature and perfections, for that was impossible. He could not cease to be omnipotent, and omnipresent, and most holy, and true, and good.

(2.) It is conceivable that he might have laid aside, for a time, the symbols or the manifestation of his glory, or that the outward expressions of his majesty in heaven might have been withdrawn. It is conceivable for a Divine Being to intermit the exercise of his almighty power, since it cannot be supposed that God is always exerting his power to the utmost. And, in like manner, there might be for a time a laying aside or intermitting of these manifestions or symbols, which were expressive of the Divine glory and perfections. Yet

(3.) this supposes no change in the Divine nature, or in the essential nature of the Divine perfections. When the sun is obscured by a cloud, or in an eclipse, there is no real change of its glory, nor are his beams extinguished, nor is the sun himself in any measure changed. His lustre is only for a time obscured. So it might have been in regard to the manifestation of the glory of the Son of God. Of course, there is much in regard to this which is obscure; but the language of the apostle undoubtedly implies more than that he took an humble place, or that he demeaned himself in an humble manner. In regard to the actual change respecting his manifestations in heaven, or the withdrawing of the symbols of his glory there, the Scriptures are nearly silent, and conjecture is useless—perhaps improper. The language before us fairly implies that he laid aside that which was expressive of his being Divine—that glory which is involved in the phrase "being in the form of God"—and took upon himself another form and manifestation in the condition of a servant.

And took upon him the form of a servant. The phrase "form of a servant," should be allowed to explain the phrase "form of God" in #Php 2:6. The form of a servant is that which indicates the condition of a servant, in contradistinction from one of higher rank. It means, to appear as a servant, to perform the offices of a servant, and to be regarded as such. He was made like a servant in the lowly condition which he assumed. The whole connexion and force of the argument here demands this interpretation. Storr and Rosenmuller interpret this as meaning that he became the servant or minister of God, and that in doing it, it was necessary that he should become a man. But the objection to this is obvious. It greatly weakens the force of the apostle’s argument. His object is to state the depth of humiliation to which he descended; and this was best done by saying that he descended to the lowest condition of humanity, and appeared in the most humble garb. The idea of being a "servant or minister of God" would not express that, for this is a term which might be applied to the highest angel in heaven. Though the Lord Jesus was not literally a servant or slave, yet what is here affirmed was true of him in the following respects:
(1.) he occupied a most lowly condition in life; and

(2.) he condescended to perform such acts as are appropriate only to those who are servants. "I am among you as he that serveth," #Lu 22:27. Comp #Joh 13:4-15.
<P dir=ltr>And was made in the likeness of men. Marg., habit. The Greek word means likeness, resemblance. The meaning is, he was made like unto men by assuming such a body as theirs.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.