masonry

coastie · Sep 11, 2002

According to TLC, the mason's are actually a distant cousin of the Knight's Templer of Europe. And the Knight's Templers are the organization of Crusaders who fought against the Muslims in the middle east way back when.

I'm not going to pass judgement on either side or organization here to retain objectivity. The Knight's Templers Claim to have a sacred relic (the head of Jesus) but soem argue that they have the head of John the Baptist... regardless, that's where they believe that they derive their powers (though what their powers exactly are is a closely guarded secret).

Anyway.... an interesting bit of info. There are lots of parallels that can be drawn between the Masons and the Mormons. When Joseph Smith joined the Masons he adopted many of the Mason's ceremonies and other idiosyncracies into his teachings.

Now, Joseph Smith was niether a Christian nor a man of high moral Character... as a matter of fact, he was a hypocrite. Perhaps back in the 1800's the Masons were not quite so choosy.

Now there are real secret societies out there that I would be even more concerned about, but I would definately do plenty of research before getting involved in something that is so cloaked in secracy and also so contraversial.

Zach

Donna Carrico · Sep 29, 2002

Freemasonry is definitely NOT compatable with Christianity. Please go to our web site and read the tracts. We have researched Masonry since 1989. We will be happy to answer any questions you have.

JagSayon · Sep 29, 2002

Umm Donna, where is your website?

Jag

AngelAmidala · Sep 30, 2002

You can check out her profile...it's listed in there.

Also at the bottom of her post, between the word "Email" and "Search" it says "Homepage." You can use that to get to her page.

spampy · Oct 1, 2002

" One of the problems for Masons trying to fight errors is that we can point out things in error but can't reveal the truth without violating an oath we took to not reveal the secrets of Masonry in any way, shape, or form."

I have a problem with any organization the has secret oaths that can't be revealed and yet links itself to christianity. My old church is very involved in something called the Walk to Emmaus. Whenever asked what the walk was about they reply that its a big secret and they can't tell you. After going on the walk, one must join the "community". They continue to have weekly meetings to hold onto whatever it was that the "secret" gave to them. Christianity is about inclusion. There are no secrets. You want to know about Jesus, I'll tell you. If there is something I know that you can't because youre not part of my "gang", thats a problem

Greeter · Oct 1, 2002

I have a problem with any organization the has secret oaths that can't be revealed and yet links itself to christianity.

Freemasonry is a fraternity and doesn't link itself to religion of any kind other then making a few requirements for membership, one of them being a belief in God.  Christians may be members as they meet that prime requirement but it doesn't mean the fraternity is linked to Christianity anymore then the United States is linked to Christianity because it has citizens who are Christian. 

Freemasonry does have its secrets but this is not unusual for fraternities such as those found on college campuses or in towns across the nation like the Elk's Lodge, Moose Lodge, Knights of Columbus, etc.

I understand the problem with a religion having secrets.  That is a big problem but not for the Masonic Lodge.  That is because Freemasonry is not a religion.  It is a fraternity, one with ideals, but still just a fraternity.

Christopher · Oct 15, 2002

ahh , but Christianity is a religion, if you see the problem then those who are part of the christian religion should not be part of that secret society.

Furthermore, Masonry does teach that it is a religion. In fact it teaches that it is the universal religion, that all religions are to meet under the umbrella of masonry.

However, it is a secret retained for the higher degrees, which of course depned upon which rite you tkae, ultimately both rites reach the ultimate degree - from which point the mason may participate in the shriner's.

The scripture plainly teaches not to swear by anything. The Lord Jesus said that we should not swear, but let our yea be yea, and our nay be nay. he said that anything more than that comes from evil. James , the Lord's brother teaches us the same in his epislte. he say ' swear not at all '.

Then wether in jest or not, to bing oneself to self mutalation and other vile deeds is an act of reproach against the name, teaching , and lordship of Christ. in fact the apotle Pauls says that we should not jest, and to put away foolish speaking.

The scripture tecahes us that respect of persons is sin - but masonry binds such sinful activity upon it's constituents. To join any fraternity that endorses and promotes the unification of all religions is directly and defiantly oppossed to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christopher

Greeter · Oct 15, 2002

ahh , but Christianity is a religion, if you see the problem then those who are part of the christian religion should not be part of that secret society.

Those who follow Christ properly have no real need for Freemasonry.  For those who have not come to know Christ yet, I see Freemasonry as being a good thing.  Admittedly going from Christianity to Freemasonry would be like taking a step down in my opinion.  Freemasonry is there to help men be better men.  For those who already know and follow Jesus they will strive to be better men already.

Furthermore, Masonry does teach that it is a religion. In fact it teaches that it is the universal religion, that all religions are to meet under the umbrella of masonry.

However, it is a secret retained for the higher degrees, which of course depned upon which rite you tkae, ultimately both rites reach the ultimate degree - from which point the mason may participate in the shriner's.

Do you have something to back this up?  I don't know of anything beyond the Masonic Lodge as I didn't pursue it beyond that.  I can say that the Masonic Lodge makes it clear in many different ways that it is not a religion.  Recently another member of these boards led me to some sites dealing with Albert Pike.  On one of them he has the following quote.

http://www.tracingboard.com/albert_pike1.htm

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. (p. 161)

I can't say about the higher degrees as I have not gone there, but I would find it very odd if they contradict something in the lower degrees.  Albert Pike attained the highest degree.  He is also seen as being an expert on Freemasonry and yet made the above quote.

The scripture plainly teaches not to swear by anything. The Lord Jesus said that we should not swear, but let our yea be yea, and our nay be nay. he said that anything more than that comes from evil. James , the Lord's brother teaches us the same in his epislte. he say ' swear not at all '.

Then wether in jest or not, to bing oneself to self mutalation and other vile deeds is an act of reproach against the name, teaching , and lordship of Christ. in fact the apotle Pauls says that we should not jest, and to put away foolish speaking.

Agreed, we shouldn't swear.  That would be a problem for someone who is Christian and wants to join a Masonic Lodge.  Again, I think that would be taking a step backwards but . . .

The scripture tecahes us that respect of persons is sin - but masonry binds such sinful activity upon it's constituents.

Here you have me confused.  Are you saying we shouldn't respect each other?  The love we are supposed to show for each other would seem like the highest respect.

To join any fraternity that endorses and promotes the unification of all religions is directly and defiantly oppossed to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am coming to see that a Christian fundamentalist can not join a Masonic Lodge.  As mentioned previously I consider that to be taking a step backwards to begin with.  I think the Lodge and members of Masonic Lodges have potential but are simply misguided.  I think Christianity has the higher truth but I don't think that is reason for me to denounce the Masonic Lodge, just their teachings that are incorrect.

Jesusong · Oct 25, 2002

To quote Albert Pike;

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion. For hence are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn and know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures.

Albert Pike; Morals and Dogma; pgs. 213 & 214

And again;

It (Masonry) is the universial, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universial humanity. No creed has ever been long lived that was not built on this foundation. It is the base, and they are the superstructure. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." "Is not this the fast I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it and are devoted to it; its sacrifices to God are good works, the sacrifices of the base and disorderly passions, the offering up of self interest on the altar of humanity, and perpetual efforts to attain to all the moral perfection of which man is capable.

Albert Pike; Morals and Dogma; pg 219

 

From what I could gather from these two quotes is that Masonry is a religion based on good works. I could go on with more quotes, but it takes too much time to type.

It took me a while to type all of this within its context. A lot of times in Anti-Masonic literature, they only print a sentence or part of a sentence to prove their point. Sometimes by showing the statement without its context might be taken out of context.

Oh, for the record, I believe that Christianity is incompatable with Freemasonry. 

 

Memory's Flame · Dec 6, 2002

I HATE this misconseption... I was raise in a HIGHLY masonic family...going through the youth organizations and now being a member of the "ladies" organization and it drives me nutz to think that people look down on masons as being against christianity! The youth organizations require the entire group to attend church once a month....

Jesusong · Dec 8, 2002

Walter Martin did a tape where he debates a Mason. The name of the tape is " Dialogue on Freemasonry. " You can listen to it online at the link below. I believe the online listening is only good for December. The interview /debate is about an hour, but is very good listening.

http://www.waltermartin.org/realaudio.html

Listen to it and come back and share what you think.

frandall · Dec 12, 2002

Originally posted by EJO
Freemasonry requires its members to believe in the existence of a Supreme Being and also to believe that there is only One God. Freemasonry refers to its god as the Great Architect of the Universe. It teaches that all men, of all the various religions, worship the one God, simply using a variety of different names. It is on that basis that Masons may be Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists, or men who profess to follow Jesus. Freemasonry requires a belief in the existence of A Supreme Being, but does not define that being.

Here we go again with the "Freemasonry's god" gambit. First, the phrase Grand Architect of the Universe was coined by a Christian minister, the famous Joh Calvin. In the Bible God has many names: Adonai, Elochiem, and so on. Freemasonry allows each member to worship God as that member perceives God to be and according to his own religious beliefs.

The Holy Bible however, reveals that the truth is somewhat different. The Bible does state that there is only one God: I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. (Isaiah 45:5)

Isn' that what Freemasonry teaches: there is one God?

With these facts clearly documented from the Holy Bible, it is easy to know that the foundational teaching of Freemasonry, namely that all men worship God, is not true. Since Freemasonry does not follow in the teachings of Christ, the god of Freemasonry cannot be the God of the Bible.

Once again--there is no "god of Freemasonry." Each member has his own personal beliefs as to what or who God is. The premise that Freemasonry has and requires worship of its own god is patently false, and anyone who says so is a liar. Each lodge member is to worship the supreme being which he believes in the house of worship of his choice. The only worship that goes on inside a Masonic Lodge are the prayers said and the start and end of Lodge meetings and a certain points in rituals--prayers with which each member may pray to his personal supreme being. We do, however, recite scripture from the Holy Bible as a candidate is presented for a degree.

And what are the teachings of Christ that Freemasonry does not follow? And please do not cite the writings of St. Paul or the other apostles; cite only the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do not the many Masonic charities--especially those for children--follow Christ's teaching to be charitable to all ("What you do the least of them, you do to me")?

Are our principle tenets of Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth contrary to what Christ taught? If so, how?

Is the obligation of Masons to aid and support widows and orphans contrary to what Christ taught? If so, how?

Since God is a Spirit, a question you might ask of a Worshipful Master, or other Mason, is the following:  Is Vishnu, the god which Hindus worship, the same spirit which you refer to as the Great Architect of the Universe?

A loaded question, but I will answer, "I don't know--and neither does anyone else for sure." Anyone can arrive at either answer based on how he or she interprets what has been written about the subject and what he or she has been taught.  Personally, I and many other Freemasons do not believe Vishnu is the Supreme Being (maybe A supreme being, but not THE Supreme Being, the Creator of All), but a Freemason who is a Hindu does. Again--it is the Hindu's personal choice to believe such.

When I pray in the Lodge to the G.A.O.T.U., it is to God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth--the God of the Holy Bible who gave his only Son that all may not perish. Others in the Lodge may be praying otherwise. The Lodge does not and will not dictate to its member to whom they should pray other than it be the supreme being in which they believe.

Does Freemasonry lift up Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation as is documented in John 14:6? 

No, we do not. Freemasonry is neutral regarding religion: it does not favor one religion over another. Discussion of religion and religious beliefs in the Lodge is forbidden because of the dissension it can cause.

Clearly, Freemasonry does not follow in the teachings of Christ. Therefore, Freemasons do not have God. (2 John 9)

Again please iterate specifically the teachings we do not follow.

Freemasonry is a pagan religion.

Pagan maybe, as defined by the American Heritage College Dictionary ("Not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim," "One who has no religion," A non-Christian," "Professing no religion.") Freemasonry has a religious basis, but is not a religion per se. It requires its members to have a religion, but is itself not one. It is a "course of moral instruction taught agreeably to ancient established usages of signs, symbols, and allegorical figures."

From "Conscience and the Craft: The Question on Religion and Freemasonry" By Jim Tresner, Ph.D., 33rd degree:

Is Masonry a religion?

No, not by the definitions most people use. Religion, as the term is commonly used, implies several things: a plan for salvation or path by which one reaches the after-life; a theology which attempts to describe the nature of God; and the description of ways or practices by which a man or woman may seek to communicate with God.

Masonry does none of those things. We offer no plan of salvation. With the exception of saying that He is a loving Father who desires only good for His children, we make no effort to describe the nature of God. And while we open and close our meetings with prayer, and we teach that no man should ever begin any important undertaking without first seeking the guidance of God, we never tell a man how he should pray or for what he should pray.

Instead, we tell him that he must find the answers to these great questions in his own faith, in his church or synagogue or other house of worship. We urge men not to neglect their spiritual development and to be faithful in the practice of their religion. As the Grand Lodge of England wrote in "Freemasonry and Religion", "Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice, it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God by whatever name He is known." Masonry itself makes only a simple religious demand on a man: he must believe that he has an immortal soul and he must believe in God. No atheist can be a Mason.

If a man has bought into the Masonic lie that all men worship the same god, simply using a variety of different names, then he cannot be worshiping in truth. Therefore, he cannot be worshiping God when he goes into the lodge.

If that is how you interpret the situation, but I disagree. 

 

frandall · Dec 12, 2002

Originally posted by Donna Carrico
Freemasonry is definitely NOT compatable with Christianity. Please go to our web site and read the tracts. We have researched Masonry since 1989. We will be happy to answer any questions you have.

Dr. Gary Leazer was the main researcher for the Home Mission Board, Southern Baptist Conference, when it investigated Freemasonry several years ago. He researched Freemasonry for almost two years and found nothing in it to be incompatible with Christian principles. He was so impressed with the Craft that he became a Freemason and is now one of our staunch defenders.

I notice that so many of those who are against Freemasonry[/color] on religious grounds say it is not compatible with "Christianity"--not Christian principles, but "Christianity." Apparently it depends on the person's version of Christianity. We have had among our brethren numerous bishops of the Methodist and Anglican churches, several Archbishops of Canterbury, and many, many Christian clergy. Some notable ones are Rev. Norman Vincent Peale; Rev. Carl J. Sanders, Bishop of the Methodist Church; and Rev. Richard Allen, founder and first bishop of the A.M.E. Church. Many Lodge members are lay leaders in their chuch and have said--as did Rev. Peale--that Freemasonry[/color] has helped them become a better Christian.

In an article titled. "On Freemasonry," Rev. Bro. Peale wrote

The values and ideas, the profound principals of religion, morality, and honour for which Masonry stands, mean much to me as an American.

There is, as I see it, nothing like Masonry. It is unique in its fellowship which spreads over much of the earth, in addition to our own country. Moreover, this in-depth fellowship spans the years, even the centuries, running back into antiquity. To me it means a personal relationship with great historical personalities and, taken by and large, also with about the finest body of men whom it is possible to assemble anywhere.

Attending Lodge and participating in Masonic activities gave me confidence. I learned to work with people. I found that everyone, every single brother, had a special talent. All I had to do was bring it out. The Brother, then, saw quickly enough how to put his talent to use.

And his success at Lodge work gave him confidence too! He passed it on to others, and they still to others. It wasn't necessary to repeat a self-help motto like "I believe in me." Just doing the work and seeing the results were enough.

Confidence in self, in the Lodge, in Masonry, in the community and nation - it caught on, and I have seen it spread farther and farther as I continue my Masonic journey in life, meeting ever more Brothers and sharing with them the confidence Freemasonry can give.

Ever since I became a Mason, the work has not only charmed me, but also impressed me. I can further add that, as a public speaker, it has also given me enhanced perception of the nobility of words and their inspirational power when used in skillful combination and for the expression of lofty thoughts.

(Rev. Bro. Peale belonged to Millwood Lodge No. 1062, Brooklyn, New York.)

frandall · Dec 12, 2002

Originally posted by Christopher
ahh , but Christianity is a religion, if you see the problem then those who are part of the christian religion should not be part of that secret society.

Furthermore, Masonry does teach that it is a religion. In fact it teaches that it is the universal religion, that all religions are to meet under the umbrella of masonry. 

Au contraire! Freemasonry does NOT teach that it is a religion. Your "In fact" sentence echos words from Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma," his personal views on Freemasonry and comparative religion. But Pike explicitly states "Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religion belief, falsifies and denaturalzes it." (Morals and Dogma, p. 161).

Here is the official word from the United Grand Lodge of England, the Mother Lodge of all Masonic Lodges around the world:

FREEMASONRYAND RELIGION
Statement of the Board of General Purposes, Grand Lodge of England
June 12, 1985

In the light of recent comments on Freemasonry and religion and inquiries to be held by various churches into the compatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity, the Board has decided to issue the following statement in amplification of that originally approved by the Grand Lodge in September 1962 and confirmed by Grand Lodge in December 1981.

Basic Statement:  Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members belief in a Supreme Being, but provides no system of faith of its own. Its rituals include prayers, but these relate only to the matter instantly in hand and do not amount to the practice of religion.

Freemasonry is open to men of any faith, but religion may not be discussed at its meetings.

The Supreme Being:  The names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer (to God as they see Him) without the terms of the prayer causing dissension among them.

There is no Masonic God; a Freemason remains committed to the God of the religion he professes.

Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is no composite Masonic God.

Volume of the Sacred Law:  An open Volume of the Sacred Law is an essential part of every Masonic meeting. The Volume of the Sacred Law to a Christian is the Bible; to Freemasons of other faiths it is the book held holy by them.

The Oaths of Freemasonry:  The obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law. They are undertakings to keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition and to follow the principles of Freemasonry. The physical penalties are simply symbolic. The Commitment to follow the principles of Freemasonry is deep, and entirely appropriate to this form of obligation.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion:  Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion:

1. It has no dogma or theology (and by forbidding religious discussion at its meetings will not allow a Masonic dogma to develop).

2. It offers no sacraments.

3. It does not claim to lead to salvation, by works, secret knowledge, or any other means (the secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition, not with salvation).

Freemasonry Supports Religion:  Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice, it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place his duty to God (by whatever name He is known) above all other duties. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

frandall · Dec 13, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
My grandfather was a mason, and after he died, we found a lot of his old books in his house. They contained all sorts of weird rituals and freaky pledges, like, he would be willing to sacrifice his oldest son (my dad) if he ever revealed what went on in any of the rituals. ICK!

I'm sure your husband wouldn't want to particiapte in that!!

I have been a Freemason for 20+ years and Master of a Lodge for two years, and I can assure you that there is no such requirement, in any ritual or obligation, that a Mason "be willing to sacrifice his oldest son." The penalties in the three obligations that a Freemason takes upon himself--of his own free will and accord--are symbolic and allude to the emotional pain and suffering a Mason should feel should he ever knowingly reveal the secrets of Freemasonry to anyone other than a brother Mason of the same or higher degree.

There have been many books published, especially during the anti-Masonic period in the U.S., that were speculation and outright misinformation and lies about our Craft. I suspect that the books your grandfather had included some of those.

For the best information on Freemasonry and Masonic Lodges, I recommend you call the Secretary of the local Lodge and request some literature, in particular these pamphlets from the Masonic Service Association: "What is a Freemason" and "A Response to Critics of Freemasonry." If you'd like I can provide a list of web sites.

As for your husband, remember that the purpose of Freemasonry is to make good men better.

 

billmcelligott · Sep 13, 2003

Hi Fred

you have done a lot of work here.

Nothing left to say really.

Only I know of no Mason that prays to any other God tahn the one of his true faith.

kdet · Sep 13, 2003

My husband is a freemason..I just want to say God bless you.

Plan 9 · Sep 13, 2003

coastie said:
According to TLC, the mason's are actually a distant cousin of the Knight's Templer of Europe. And the Knight's Templers are the organization of Crusaders who fought against the Muslims in the middle east way back when.

I'm sorry; TLC?

I'm not going to pass judgement on either side or organization here to retain objectivity. The Knight's Templers Claim to have a sacred relic (the head of Jesus) but soem argue that they have the head of John the Baptist... regardless, that's where they believe that they derive their powers (though what their powers exactly are is a closely guarded secret).

According to my reading, the Knights Templar claimed no such thing. They were accused of,, tried and executed for worshipping a re-animated severed head they were supposed to have named "Bahomet"! Even Montague Summers didn't buy this story and he was credulous to the extreme.

They were very powerful, popular with the common people, had superior fighting skills and lots of goods, land and gold. They were a potential threat, everything they owned could be confiscated and the Crusades were over, so they weren't needed: they were framed.
Demolay was one of the very few to escape.

When the Kevin Cosner film Robin Hood was released, I went to see it and was amazed to find that this was an integral part of the plot.

Plan 9 · Sep 13, 2003

JagSayon said:
2) The satanic goat of Mendez (God of Lust) can be fitted into masonry's Eastern Star.

Aleister Crowley stole the symbol and put a goat's head in the middle, replacing what looks like an open Bible to me.

The Witchcraft Side of Masonry

Issue Date: March/April 1997

By William Schnoebelen

There is something about the Lodge that has always attracted sorcerers. The list of occultists and witches in the last century who were Freemasons reads like a Who's Who of 20th century occultism:

Arthur Edward Waite - occult writer and Masonic historian.
Dr. Wynn Westcott - member of the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia and founding member of the occult Order of the Golden Dawn.
S. L. MacGregor Mathers - co-founder of the Golden Dawn.
Aleister Crowley - master satanist of this century and founder of the anti-christ religion of Thelema.
Dr. Gerard Encaussé - (Papus) masterful author, teacher of the Tarot and leader of the occult Martinistes society.
Dr. Theodore Reuss - head of the O.T.O., a German occult/satanic society which made Crowley its head for the British Isles.
George Pickingill - the master warlock (male witch) of 19th century England, leader of the "Pickingill covens."
Annie Besant - leader of the occult Theosophical society and Co-Masonic hierarch.

Yes, they wanted to learn Masonry's "secrets" and once they had them, they left Masonry, mixed them in with their own ideas, and the result reads like pure gibberish. Have you ever tried to read Mathers? Are you going to condemn Judiaism next, because he turned the Cabala inside-out and then added in his garbage?
Waite made a good living from his two volume "work" on Freemasonry.
By the way, have you ever tried to read and understand Waite? If you want a link, I have one and good luck to you!
Besant was Madame Blavatsky's successor and she was desperate to find anything she could to hold on to Madame B's Theosophists. Have you tried reading Madame B? Good gravy! It was the force of her personality which held that group together, not what she wrote, but she wrote a LOT! Besant had to feed that crowd's appetite somehow to keep fleecing them for their money and she didn't have Madame B's fertile imagination.
When you actually read what these people wrote, most of them stop seeming in any way sinister or impressive and simply sound like nutters or hucksters.

I do very much like the poetry of Yeats, though, and he belonged to the Hermetic order of the Golden Dawn.
Bulwer-Lytton, on the other hand...

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