Yet Another Random Newbie

Naraoia

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The folks here are great about making a person feel very welcome.
Yeah, I'm starting to like the place for that very reason. *waves to the old residents* Thanks again for the welcome!
And I am a science nut also. I have a bachelor's degree in Microbiology.
Hmm, Microbiology... do you happen to know something about the Archaea? Last semester we had a couple of lectures on them and I became really fond of those weird ancient things (not that I'm intending to specialise on them, I'm really not made for handling microscopes, test tubes and sterile cultures -but they seem immensely interesting to learn about)
So I have taken all the -ology's. Of course that was several years ago but I still have all my old textbooks.
What do you do now?
 
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Naraoia

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Although most Christians would probably respond with, "Oh, no, God LOVES you," my response would be that every one of us has lied, lusted, stolen, cursed, used God's Name in vain, hated, and/or etc., and therefore, all of us have broken God's Law (basically, the Ten Commandments). Therefore, God's wrath is against every person who has not surrendered to His Son, Christ Jesus, for forgiveness. So, ANYONE who is not a follower of Christ, is under God's wrath.
If it gets too long we can always continue the discussion in another thread :) Anyway, what you say raises a question in me (and I'm sure many, many people raised the same question before me). Let's assume there is a guy who is just Perfect. Never broke any Commandment or Law or any beautiful capitalised Christian ideal in his entire life. I'm not saying such a person exists - I would be most surprised if he did - but still there is a theoretical possibility that leads to uncomfortable questions.

Now, let's assume he's NOT Christian. He thinks Jesus was no more than a weirdo who thought he was the Messiah. He therefore doesn't bother to beg his forgiveness. Now, does the Christian God renounce him just because he didn't want any of Jesus's forgiveness? Does a little prayer and a feeling of guilt count more than a life of goodness?

Probably because the atheist uses reason and logic alone, while the Christian also uses faith. For example, an atheist might say that Science is the way to all truth, whereas a Christian might say that Science is limited to only the natural realm, and therefore cannot discover all Truth, because there is more to existence than just the natural realm (in other words, the supernatural realm, or the spiritual realm).
Yeah, that's a good enough reason, still, it looks a bit silly to me. Never mind.

I certainly don't think science is the way to all truth; when I'm in doubt whether I really love this or that guy, I won't rush to a lab and get my EEG ;) And I do use faith, though it's based on somewhat more empirical premises... I mean, I TRUST that the scientific method actually works. And, for a very personal example, I believe mathematics is something like Plato's ideals behind imperfect laws of nature. I guess there's just as much evidence pro as there is contra, but I am firmly convinced in one direction. What is that if not faith?

Wow. Yes, this is getting very philosophical. Maybe time for a move.
 
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Live4HimAndLoveOthers

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Naraoia said:
If it gets too long we can always continue the discussion in another thread

I agree.

Naraoia said:
Let's assume there is a guy who is just Perfect. Never broke any Commandment or Law or any beautiful capitalised Christian ideal in his entire life. I'm not saying such a person exists - I would be most surprised if he did - but still there is a theoretical possibility that leads to uncomfortable questions.

Now, let's assume he's NOT Christian. He thinks Jesus was no more than a weirdo who thought he was the Messiah. He therefore doesn't bother to beg his forgiveness. Now, does the Christian God renounce him just because he didn't want any of Jesus's forgiveness? Does a little prayer and a feeling of guilt count more than a life of goodness?

Interesting question.

OK, first, there is/was such a Person. That was Jesus. Jesus lived on this Earth and never sinned. He was morally perfect. He never broke a single Commandment or had a sinful thought.

But let's say, for argument's sake, there actually was someone, besides Jesus, who never sinned. First, that person would have to believe everything God said, and agree with God about everything, or else they would be in rebellion against God, which would be sin. But I don't really think that's what you're asking, so let's move on to the main point.

If there was a person (besides Jesus) who was sinless and perfect (never broke any Commandment, etc.), then that person would not need God's forgiveness, and would be able to get into Heaven based on his own perfection, because he/she would have met God's standard of perfection already. That person would be just as morally perfect as God Himself.

The problem is, nobody (except Jesus) fits that category. That's why we all need forgiveness.
 
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AngelDove7

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Welcome to ForU.ms!

:wave:

ButterfliesFloral_pz-Hugs-1.gif
 
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Naraoia

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[...]The problem is, nobody (except Jesus) fits that category. That's why we all need forgiveness.
Why do I feel a sudden urge to open a Bible and delve into the New Testament until I find any tiny scrap of evidence that even he sinned at least once in his life? :D (Answer: because I just LOVE to be nasty :p And alas, I'm too lazy to actually do that. I'm more than seven deadly sins incarnate :ebil:) Anyway, thanks for the opinion. I think I'll just leave theology at this point. It's definitely not for my mindset.
 
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Sylvanspirits

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I'm not sure what Einstein meant by "science without religion is lame", though. It would be very nice to still have him around so that I could ask *wonders*

Got to this a bit late. :sorry:

My interpetation is that he was of the opinion that religion alone tends to make one ignorant (hence, that they are "blind" to how the universe works), but science alone tends to make one think of the world in a strictly mechanical sense, cutting us of from part of our humanity - our sense of empathy. (making us "lame" mechanical creatures)
Basically, that we should avoid the extremes of both sides - religion alone, (For example, the Catholic Church condemning Galileo for stating that the Sun, not the earth, was the center of the universe, defending their position with scripture) and science alone (For example, Social Darwinism - the rich and successful should survive, the poor and homeless must fend for themselfs or die, as they contribute little and bring down the successful.)

I'll use another quote from him. :)

“If one purges the Judaism of the Prophets and Christianity as Jesus Christ taught it of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity.” - Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1949.

IMO, that teaching is that the greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Of course, I can't speak for Einstien, so I might be wrong on what he meant. ;)
 
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Naraoia

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I'll use another quote from him. :)

“If one purges the Judaism of the Prophets and Christianity as Jesus Christ taught it of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity.” - Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1949.

IMO, that teaching is that the greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Of course, I can't speak for Einstien, so I might be wrong on what he meant. ;)
You might be wrong but you do make some sense, though if Einstein really meant what you thought he did, I must disagree with him.

The second Einstein quote is so true in a sense :) The problem is, people as a mass don't seem to be able to follow pure and beautiful teachings and cure all the social ills of humanity.
 
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