End Times - Should We Worry?

When will the rapture be?

  • Next ten years.

  • Next hundred years.

  • Next thousand years.

  • I have no idea.


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Brian45

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Originally posted by jenlu
Brian45...this is just the kind of backwards interpretation I'm talking about...you take what's happening now and read it back into the Bible somehow...every generation has natural disasters, wars, famine's etc. that could fit (if one is willing) "end times" scenario's...(if it weren't for those time texts I would add)...that's one thing I have changed since moving form a dispensationalist...I used to do it all the time...

 

No jenlu , your wrong , I take what's happening in bible prophecy and read it into what's happening in the world now  .
 
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jenlu

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What's happening in Bible prophecy?????you automatically assume the ozone and ice caps are "whats happening" in Bible prophecy...my advice...try not reading anything into the Bible...it can and always will be able to stand alone...no need for additional information...When the Word talks about beasts, dragons, temple's, tribulations...etc either it is absolutely understandable as it is or in previous Books(especially O.T) it is explained very well...I'm not saying it's easy, but I am saying you don't need to read Scientific American or The Wall Street Journal or anything to try to understand...
 
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jenlu

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Brian

I'm not sure I understand your question, and how it relates to my points...If you want to know if I'm a dispensationalist, I'm not...I've already revealed that...but I used to be...and I understand some of the critical errors I made when reading the Bible(prophecy or not)...one was allowing my timeframe or point of view to effect the Bible's clearly described point of view...

I believe Christ's victory is complete and the continual consummation of that victory occurs everyday in the lives of his own...
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by jenlu
What's happening in Bible prophecy?????you automatically assume the ozone and ice caps are "whats happening" in Bible prophecy...my advice...try not reading anything into the Bible...it can and always will be able to stand alone...no need for additional information...When the Word talks about beasts, dragons, temple's, tribulations...etc either it is absolutely understandable as it is or in previous Books(especially O.T) it is explained very well...I'm not saying it's easy, but I am saying you don't need to read Scientific American or The Wall Street Journal or anything to try to understand...

This seems like a sure way to gain some worldly wisdom, but the Bible says that we should pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Why not let the Spirit of truth lead us to the truth, instead of trying to rely on our own human wisdom, which is foolishness to God? Just a suggestion, See Ya!
 
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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
This seems like a sure way to gain some worldly wisdom, but the Bible says that we should pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Why not let the Spirit of truth lead us to the truth, instead of trying to rely on our own human wisdom, which is foolishness to God? Just a suggestion, See Ya!

If the Holy Spirit guides christians today into ALL TRUTH, then why are we here debating what prophecy is all about?  You are saying you have ALL truth?
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by Frank
If the Holy Spirit guides christians today into ALL TRUTH, then why are we here debating what prophecy is all about?  You are saying you have ALL truth?

Hello Frank,

Are you angry today? No, I never claimed to have a hold on all truth. I don't believe that any man has all this knowledge that will unlock the mysteries of the end time events. It's like a puzzle that we must put together, and there are many pieces to be put together.

You that hold on to the past always like to laugh at us who believe that Christ is still to come, like maybe you are trying to compare that with the verse that tells about the scoffers in the last days. Your equivelant to that is trying to say that our belief can not be true because it is a kinda new teaching, but I would also point you to Daniel's words when he said, "knowledge would be increased in the last days."

 
 
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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Hello Frank,

It's like a puzzle that we must put together, and there are many pieces to be put together.
 

God is in the puzzle making business?  I didn't realize that the Bible was a puzzle.  You are contradicting yourself man.  Either John 16:13 means "all truth" or it doesn't.  When Jesus told the disciples that the holy spirit will guide them into ALL truth, that's exactly what it means.  Is not partial truth, it's ALL truth.  Are we guided by the holy spirit into ALL truth today or not? If we are not, then why not?  Desn't the revelation of all truth include instructions on how to solve the puzzle?
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by Frank
God is in the puzzle making business?  I didn't realize that the Bible was a puzzle.  You are contradicting yourself man.  Either John 16:13 means "all truth" or it doesn't.  When Jesus told the disciples that the holy spirit will guide them into ALL truth, that's exactly what it means.  Is not partial truth, it's ALL truth.  Are we guided by the holy spirit into ALL truth today or not? If we are not, then why not?  Desn't the revelation of all truth include instructions on how to solve the puzzle?

I meant to say that the mystery of the end times is like a puzzle. But hey, if you think you got a corner on all the truth, then tell us, but I'll warn you to be very careful, so you don't trip over that stumbling block :scratch: :(
 
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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
I meant to say that the mystery of the end times is like a puzzle. But hey, if you think you got a corner on all the truth, then tell us, but I'll warn you to be very careful, so you don't trip over that stumbling block :scratch: :(

Actually I never claimed to have ALL the truth.  In fact, I don't even believe that I have the Holy Spirit...at least not in the same way the apostles did, so there you have it. 

You still did not answer my questions.  Is the holy spirit guiding people today into ALL the truth or not?
 
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in ten years...the increase in "knowledge" is gonna make now look like we're at snails speed...BTW "knowledge" in what area...Science, Religion, etc...my point is, that is a very unreliable or unmeasurable way of predicting an end...as I've said before...many generations can account for many so called signs of the times...only one can fit the time frame though...
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by Frank

You still did not answer my questions.  Is the holy spirit guiding people today into ALL the truth or not?

It depends on what you mean by all. Yes, the Spirit is guiding those who are truely seeking. They are receiving answers for their questions. But He is not going to tell you or anyone all the answers to all of lifes most difficult questions and problems. Our knowledge is very limited and it always will be, until we get there. He is guiding people to see the spiritual side of things, and not just the worldly side. If we only see the worldly, then we are blind. Only the Holy Spirit can open our understanding so that we may see, and then the spiritual side is seen.

This is why we need help to see.  1 Corr. 13:12 - "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
 
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Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
It depends on what you mean by all. Yes, the Spirit is guiding those who are truely seeking. They are receiving answers for their questions. But He is not going to tell you or anyone all the answers to all of lifes most difficult questions and problems. Our knowledge is very limited and it always will be, until we get there. He is guiding people to see the spiritual side of things, and not just the worldly side. If we only see the worldly, then we are blind. Only the Holy Spirit can open our understanding so that we may see, and then the spiritual side is seen.

This is why we need help to see.  1 Corr. 13:12 - "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

So the people that wrote an "infallible" Bible were VERY LIMITED in knowledge and blind?  It souns like you are putting way too much faith in some people with limited abilities? Either ALL means ALL, or it doesn't man.  It depends what I mean by ALL?  What did the Bible mean by ALL TRUTH?

"But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will not disclose to you what is to come" John 16:13

Why aren't people writing inspired books to add to the Bible today?
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by Frank
So the people that wrote an "infallible" Bible were VERY LIMITED in knowledge and blind?  It souns like you are putting way too much faith in some people with limited abilities? Either ALL means ALL, or it doesn't man.  It depends what I mean by ALL?  What did the Bible mean by ALL TRUTH?

"But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will not disclose to you what is to come" John 16:13

Why aren't people writing inspired books to add to the Bible today?

Hello Frank,

You may want to edit that verse. You misquoted the part that says will to will not.

I believe that worldly men did not have the truth and they could not see it. They were blind to it. I'm not saying that they were dummies, but they could only see the physical truth. They were blind to the spiritual truths. They could only see one side of the truth, but when the Spirit was given to men, they now have the ability to see both sides. In other words, they can see the whole truth or all truth, not just half of it. Then they were given the ability to see the same things the Prophets were able to see.

I don't put my faith in men, but I do believe that the Bible in it's entirety was inspired of God. The men that wrote the Bible wrote the words of God. They could see the physical truth (common sense), but they were also given the spiritual truth (uncommon sense). When a lost man reads the Bible, it appears to be a good story, but when a saved man reads it, it comes alive. I have no doubt that it is the living word, written for all time and it is just as revelant today as the days that it was written. 
 
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franklin said:
I take it the question in this forum is when will the Rapture happen?

NEVER! The Bible doesn't teach it! Matthew 24:34 :)

Franklin, I find your dogmatic statement about the nonexistance of a rapture in the Bible quite surprising. I've always assumed that anybody who takes the Bible even remotely literally believes there is a rapture. The clear teaching of such passages as 1 Co. 15 and 1 Th. 4 reveal some previously undisclosed truths about the resurrection of saints. Though even in the OT the fact of the resurrection (both of saved and unsaved) was revealed, there were many facts-especially those specifically relating to the resurrection of the church-which were unrevealed. One of the most important newly revealed facts about our resurrection in the mind of Paul as he wrote to the Thessalonians was that living saints will be translated at the same time that the dead in Christ are resurrected. Thus, we will be "caught up" (the origin of the term "rapture", never mentioned as such in Scripture) to be with the Lord forever. My point is that everyone who believes in the authority of the Scriptures must acknowledge that there is a rapture.

The question of where this rapture falls in the eschatological timeline is the subject of much debate. However, even amillenialists, who take an extremely nonliteral approach to eschatology, usually acknowledge a literal resurrection and translation, and place it concurrent with the second coming of Christ.

If I may "briefly" comment also (for those who are interested) on my belief about the time of the rapture, let me just say that it is exactly such date setting which has soured so many Bible-believing Christians on the subject of eschatology. The aim of eschatology is never to determine times and dates, and in fact, the explicit teaching of Scriptures with regard to the time of the rapture is that it is imminent, meaning that it could occur at any moment. However, since many generations of believers have died since the promise of an imminent rapture was given, it is clear that just because an event can occur at any moment, doesn't mean that it will occur at any moment. Also, there are no signs for us to watch for to indicate the nearness of the rapture (though posttribulationism often redefines "imminency" to allow for this), so we can say absolutely nothing definitive about the time of the rapture; we can only say that it is nearer now than it ever has been until the present (obviously).
 
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funkyd said:
If I may "briefly" comment also (for those who are interested) on my belief about the time of the rapture, let me just say that it is exactly such date setting which has soured so many Bible-believing Christians on the subject of eschatology. The aim of eschatology is never to determine times and dates, and in fact, the explicit teaching of Scriptures with regard to the time of the rapture is that it is imminent, meaning that it could occur at any moment. However, since many generations of believers have died since the promise of an imminent rapture was given, it is clear that just because an event can occur at any moment, doesn't mean that it will occur at any moment. Also, there are no signs for us to watch for to indicate the nearness of the rapture (though posttribulationism often redefines "imminency" to allow for this), so we can say absolutely nothing definitive about the time of the rapture; we can only say that it is nearer now than it ever has been until the present (obviously).

I know there are many views on WHEN the rapture will occur, but, to me the rapture will occur when the Son of Man appears on the clouds. As Jesus says in Matthew 24:30.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations will mourn. They will see the SON of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great authority. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and thy will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Do any of you disagree with this being the rapture?

For, only the elect are gathered, are they not?

Now, in Revelation 14:14, a description is given of one coming upon a cloud to reap for the harvest is ripe. This is the only reference that I can see that matches Matthew 24:30. And, it also matches Daniel 7:13.

Both these occur AFTER a description is given of beasts. In Daniel, four beasts are mentioned. One like a lion with 1 head and 0 horns. One like a bear with 1 head and 0 horns. One like a leopard with 4 heads and 0 horns. And a fourth with 1 head and 10 horns. In Revelation, one beast is described which appears to represent an alliance of these four Daniel beasts, because the beast of Revelation has 7 heads (1 + 1 + 4 + 1), ten horns (0 + 0 + 0 + 10), speaks like a lion, has feet like a bear, and a body like a leopard.

This beast is given FULL authority for only 42 months and its reign begins prior to the appearance on the cloud and before the pouring forth of the vials of God's wrath.

Therefore, if we can agree with the above, we can reasonably conclude that the rapture will take place during the 42 month reign of the beast of Revelation which could be the alliance of the four beasts of Daniel.

This to me is when the rapture will occur.
 
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Which, to me, signifies the great burden and challenge that will face those who will be left behind. For any of the Jews, Muslims, Atheists, etc. to accept Christ while the Beast rules AND the wrath of God is being poured out will be a GREAT challenge indeed! In fact, so great will be this challenge, that they will certainly be blessed for their faithful decision.

If anyone converts after the rapture, they will certainly be blessed. In my opinion. The possibility will still exist, but the burden great.

How would the latter sentence nullify the fact that the "ELECT" are reaped??
 
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Atkin

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cbk said:
I know there are many views on WHEN the rapture will occur, but, to me the rapture will occur when the Son of Man appears on the clouds. As Jesus says in Matthew 24:30.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations will mourn. They will see the SON of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great authority. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and thy will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Do any of you disagree with this being the rapture?

For, only the elect are gathered, are they not?



This beast is given FULL authority for only 42 months and its reign begins prior to the appearance on the cloud and before the pouring forth of the vials of God's wrath.

Therefore, if we can agree with the above, we can reasonably conclude that the rapture will take place during the 42 month reign of the beast of Revelation which could be the alliance of the four beasts of Daniel.

This to me is when the rapture will occur.


Christ WILL GATHER HIS ELECT that is not the question. Meeting him in the air

is where one should not get over excited. Christ gathers his elect on Earth and protects them on Earth during the rapture.
Mount Zion is RIGHT HERE ON EARTH REVELATION 14:1

Revelation 14:4-5 is straightforward. They are redeemed from the sins and spiritual dirt on earth, pure but on earth separate from sin.

Read Revelation 14 The 144000 are on Mount Zion and they follow the lamb wherever He goes around Earth. Is there some fear that Christ cannot protect his elect while they are with Him on earth?. Surely, you would not be a believer in Christ if you do not believe that Revelation 14:4 is FULL protection on earth by Christ.
 
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