Old Testament vs. Predestination

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Dale

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KSA in post #20:
"I believe there is no contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament. If the New Testament teaches predestination (and it certainly does), then it must be true."

I thank you for your responses.

I'm certainly not saying that there is any contradiction between Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament clearly does not teach predestination. Since the Calvinists derive predestination almost entirely from the New Testament, if there is no contradiction, then the Calvinist interpretation of the New Testament must be in error.
 
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Dale

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Jeremiah

“This is what the Lord says: What fault did your fathers find in me, that they strayed so far from me? They followed worthless idols and became worthless themselves.”
--Jeremiah 2:5
Those who are in spiritual darkness are “worthless” because of their own decisions, not because they are non-Elect.

“They say to wood, ‘You are my father,’ and to stone, ‘You gave me birth.’ They have turned their backs to me and not their faces; yet when they are in trouble, they say, ‘Come and save us.’”
--Jeremiah 2:27
Calvinists say that mortals, non-Elect, cannot approach God. Jeremiah says that mortals can approach God, but here he tells of those who have "turned their backs" on God.

“When you tell these people all this and they ask you ‘Why has the Lord decreed such a great disaster against us? What wrong have we done? What sin have we committed against the Lord our God?’ then say to them, ‘It is because your fathers forsook me,’ declares the Lord, ‘and followed other gods and served and worshipped them. They forsook me and did not keep my law. But you have behaved more wickedly than your fathers.’”
--Jeremiah 16:10-12
Here Jeremiah confirms what appears to be true. Those who “forsook” Judaism for paganism were not in ignorance of the Jewish God, practicing without understanding, but actively “forsook” what they did understand.

“Through your own fault you will lose the inheritance I gave you. I will enslave you to your enemies . . .”
--Jeremiah 17:4
God did not reject these people before the foundations of the world, as Predestinationists claim. Their errors were avoidable.

“I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.”
--Jeremiah 17:10
God searches the heart, as the Bible says in many places, but He does not give an individual a good heart or a bad one, as the Predestinationists claim.

“O Lord, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the Lord, the spring of living water.”
--Jeremiah 17:13

“If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.”
“Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and actions. But they will reply. ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart.’’”
--Jeremiah 18:7-12

“’This is what the Lord says: Stand in the courtyard of the Lord’s house and speak to all the people of the towns of Judah who come to worship in the house of the Lord. Tell them everything I command you; do not omit a word. Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.”
--Jeremiah 26:2-3
God has not predetermined the results of the Prophet’s speech.

“Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,’ declares the Lord, ‘and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all nations and places where I have banished you,’ declares the Lord, ‘and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.’”
--Jeremiah 29: 12-14
It is up to the believer to “call,” “pray,” and “seek” the Lord God. In response, God will “listen,” “be found,” and “gather.”

“Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes--his own teeth will be set on edge.”
--Jeremiah 30:30
There is no Doctrine of Election in Jeremiah, only sin, repentance, and the consequences of each.
 
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KSA

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KSA in post #20:
"I believe there is no contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament. If the New Testament teaches predestination (and it certainly does), then it must be true."

I thank you for your responses.

I'm certainly not saying that there is any contradiction between Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament clearly does not teach predestination. Since the Calvinists derive predestination almost entirely from the New Testament, if there is no contradiction, then the Calvinist interpretation of the New Testament must be in error.

How would you explain Ep. 1:5 then?

"...having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..."
 
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rockytrails

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John Calvin no one can accuse him of being stupid . He used his mind the use of his mind also was where his trouble started . He used his mind to make the bible more reasonable . and that is why he dared answer the question the bible does not,

why some are saved and not others.

but in so doing he also had to reject some very basic bible truths that God earnestly wants all to believe in Jesus and also be saved.

all though Calvin was correct in his belief that God predestines those who would be saved in Jesus.

Calvin was wrong in believing God predestined those who would not believe in Jesus to that unbelief also.

so why ARE only some SAVED?
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.whysome.html
 
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rockytrails

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How would you explain Ep. 1:5 then?

"...having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..."
the bibles teaching on single predestination
Jerimiah 31:3 tells us of the awe of our election in Jesus planned before the creation of the world just as clearly as ephesians 1:4-6 does.

And king david speaks of it psalm 8:2
psalm 22:9-10
psalm71:5-6

a key bible verse in discussing election and mission work is
Isaiah 55;10,11
it reminds one of this hymns stanzas

Savior shine in all your Glory
on the nations near and far
from the highways and the by ways
call them fourth O Morning Star
guide them whom your grace has chosen
out of Satans dreadful thrall
To the mansions of your Father
there is room for sinner's ALL.


THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION PRESENTED IN QUESTION AND ANSWER FORM

http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/walther/election/
 
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cfmember

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The following quote by Mr. Calvin proves his teaching of DOUBLE-PREDESTINATION. To deny that is to deny the longstanding essence of the dispute with Calvinism.

John Calvin: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Ch 21, Sec. 5)
 
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JesusChristChick

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No one becomes a Christian, God makes them one.
What does the Bible say about this?


I was raised that the Holy Spirit places the desire in your heart. The Holy Spirit is my guide and a part of God by the trinity. Predestination says that God is the Almighty, he elects who is saved. The chosen don't have to do anything, like good works or ministry, God elects the people because it is his good will, it is His good pleasure, people He hasn't chosen will not by saved.

The chosen just have "an assurity" that they will be worshiping God in heaven.

Praise Him!!!! Hallelujah!

In His Service,
~JCC
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kj7gs

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Dale, one of the reasons I stopped attending the Baptist church I was at, was that I didn't want to engage in debates with them that might have them leaving their church. I liked them, no, loved them, and we needed to focus on fellowship and what we held in common, rather than getting them all confused. So I supported them and simply remained silent when questions arose about Arminian conundrums that had logical fallacies as answers, and statements from the pulpit that had me chuckling quietly as the implications sailed over the congregation's heads while they nodded in hypnotized agreement.
You've stacked the deck well with your side of the debate, Dale, even quoting Calvin first thing as the (gasp!) heretic that actually said "devotes to condemnation" and that COULDN'T be true -- could it? God loves everybody of course, and John 3:16 immediately pops into our head to support that love!
And verse after verse is given with explanations to show that Man can reach to God for his own salvation, Arminianism like a giant puzzle of seeds planted, Jesus dying for us, chances given, God imploring everyone to come to Him, and yet we are the ones who have that final piece of the puzzle, that spark of capability, to fill in that final piece that brings us to salvation.
We may as well have the entire puzzle. You say that Calvinists ignore the Old Testament. Not at all. They depend on it. Look at the Israelites. They were a specific group, a nation, also chosen by God. The rest of the world did not have the privilege of fellowship with Him. And we see the results of Calvin's "devoting to condemnation" in the Old Testament as well as the New, with the hardening of Pharoah's heart, a great Flood, verses in Revelation that have the unsaved in derision, and yes, to go along with the Psalms you quoted, other Psalms describing what will happen to those who will not come to the Lord. Parables were told by Jesus, hiding the truth from those who were not meant to believe.
It's not an Author of Evil doing this. An Author of Evil would "give us free will" knowing what our decision would be, and yet creating us anyway. The Calvinist position is that Man, being totally depraved, CANNOT look to God for salvation, and God IS GLORIFIED in their reprobation. And yet for some reason, like Israel of old, he entered into a relationship with some of them. I don't know why, He shouldn't have, we are guilty from birth and stand condemned before Him. And Calvin was correct, Christians can not only have a comfort "founded on His gratuitous mercy" -- we get a DECREE, once and for all determined, eternal, that He will hold His Elect in the palm of His mighty hand, and this too is reflected in Revelation if you read it that way.
The world exterior to God's Elect, does not have any final piece of the puzzle -- because they don't own any piece, God owns the whole thing. The Elect obeyed the Law given them in the Old Testament, the final piece put in place for them, faith given, not taken, Jesus being the propitiation for their sins in the New Testament, forgiving the sins of the Elect. The reprobate (Baptist pastor: "uh, we don't believe in anyone being reprobate" when I let that slip in his Sunday School class) die in their sins, they are not forgiven by Christ with sins handed back in death after if they deny Him. That would make Him ineffective at best, or even a liar, a roulette wheel of grace. No, Dale, Calvin was right on this. And Christians can be comforted in TULIP.
Your position is God saying, "If you will, then I will." And you give lots of verses you believe implies a meaning of the world outside of the Elect. God is sad in His judgement of them, wishing, wanting, hoping for belief. The Calvinist position is "BECAUSE I WILL, YOU WILL!" And God is justified and holy and glorified in His punishment of the wicked, not sad! For the Elect, a wonderful comfort exist knowing that in the face of ANYTHING, His Holy Spirit will stay in our hearts, because He knew us from the beginning. Calvinism is really, REALLY good news for the Christian, Dale. And it's backed up with Scripture, not torn down by it.
 
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Iosias

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In this thread I will look at a part of the Bible that Calvinists know very little about, the Old Testament.

That has got to be one of the daftest things I have read recently. May be you have forgotten that Calvin himself preached 200 sermons from Deuteronomy alone. In addition to this he wrote commentaries on most of the OT which can be found here. The first Englishman to write a verse-by-verse commentary on the whole Bible was John Gill who was a staunch Calvinist. His commentary can be found here. Matthew Henry was another Calvinist, his commentary can be found here.


One of my favourite verses in the Psalter comes from Psalm 65:4

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."
 
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Iosias

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a great article to read:

I would have thought it best to read the Reformed explanation of what we Calvinists believe. :)

Here is the first Head of the Canons of Dordt:

Since all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and deserve eternal death, God would have done injustice to no one if He had willed to leave the whole human race in sin and under the curse, and to condemn it on account of its sin, according to these words of the apostle: that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God (Rom_3:19). All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom_3:23); and, the wages of sin is death (Rom_6:23).

But in this the love of God was made manifest, that He sent His only-begotten Son into the world, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life (1Jo_4:9; Joh_3:16).

So that men may be brought to faith, God mercifully sends heralds of this most joyful message to whom He will and when He wills. By their ministry men are called to repentance and to faith in Christ crucified. For how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent? (Rom_10:14, Rom_10:15)

The wrath of God remains upon those who do not believe this gospel. But those who receive it and embrace Jesus the Saviour with a true and living faith are delivered by Him from the wrath of God and from destruction, and are given eternal life.

The cause or guilt for this unbelief, as well as for all other sins, is by no means in God, but rather in man. Faith in Jesus Christ and salvation through Him, however, is the free gift of God, as it is written: By grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God (Eph_2:8). Similarly, It has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should . . . believe in Him (Phi_1:29).

That God in time confers the gift of faith on some, and not on others, proceeds from His eternal decree. For all His works He knows from eternity (Act_15:18), and He accomplishes all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph_1:11). According to this decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, no matter how hard they may be, and inclines them to believe; those not elected, however, He leaves in their own wickedness and hardness by a just judgment. And here especially is disclosed to us the profound, merciful, and at the same time just distinction between men equally worthy of condemnation, or that decree of election and reprobation which has been revealed in God’s Word. Although perverse, impure, and unstable men twist this decree to their own destruction, it provides unspeakable comfort for holy and God-fearing souls.

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God whereby, before the foundation of the world, out of the whole human race, which had fallen by its own fault out of its original integrity into sin and perdition, He has, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His will, out of mere grace, chosen in Christ to salvation a definite number of persons, neither better nor more worthy than others, but with them involved in a common misery. He has also from eternity appointed Christ to be the Mediator and Head of all the elect and the foundation of salvation and thus He decreed to give to Christ those who were to be saved, and effectually to call and draw them into His communion through His Word and Spirit. He decreed to give them true faith in Him, to justify them, to sanctify them, and, after having powerfully kept them in the fellowship of His Son, finally to glorify them, for the demonstration of His mercy and the praise of the riches of his glorious grace. As it is written: God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. He destined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Eph_1:4, Eph_1:5, Eph_1:6). And elsewhere, Those whom He predestined He also called; and those whom He called He also justified; and those whom He justified He also glorified (Rom_8:30).

This election is not based on foreseen faith, the obedience of faith, holiness, or any other good quality of disposition, as a cause or condition in man required for being chosen, but men are chosen to faith, the obedience of faith, holiness, and so on. Election, therefore, is the fountain of every saving good, from which flow faith, holiness, and other saving gifts, and finally eternal life itself, as its fruits and effects. This the apostle teaches when he says, He chose us (not because we were, but) that we should be holy and blameless before Him (Eph_1:4).

The cause of this gracious election is solely the good pleasure of God. This good pleasure does not consist in this, that out of all possible conditions God chose certain qualities or actions of men as a condition for salvation, but in this, that out of the common mass of sinners he adopted certain persons to be His own possession. For it is written, Though they (the children) were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, and so on, she (namely, Rebecca), was told, “The elder will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:12, Rom_9:13) And, as many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Act_13:48).


As God Himself is most wise, unchangeable, allknowing and almighty, so His election can neither be undone and redone, nor changed, revoked, or annulled; neither can the elect be cast away, nor their number be diminished.


The elect in due time, though in various stages and in different measure, are made certain of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation. They attain this assurance, however, not by inquisitively prying into the hidden and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unfailing fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God - such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, and a hungering and thirsting after righteousness.


The awareness and assurance of this election provide the children of God with greater reason for daily humbling themselves before God, for adoring the depth of His mercies, for cleansing themselves, and for fervently loving Him in turn who first so greatly loved them. It is therefore not true at all that this doctrine of election and the reflection on it makes them lax in observing the commands of God or falsely secure. In the just judgment of God, this usually happens to those who rashly presume to have the grace of election, or idly and boldly chatter about it, but refuse to walk in the ways of the elect.

Holy Scripture illustrates and recommends to us this eternal and undeserved grace of our election, especially when it further declares that not all men are elect but that some have not been elected, or have been passed by in the eternal election of God. Out of His most free, most just, blameless, and unchangeable good pleasure, God has decreed to leave them in the common misery into which they have by their own fault plunged themselves, and not to give them saving faith and the grace of conversion. These, having been left in their own ways and under His just judgment, God has decreed finally to condemn and punish eternally, not only on account of their unbelief but also on account of all their other sins, for the declaration of His justice. This is the decree of reprobation, which by no means makes God the author of sin (the very thought is blasphemous!), but rather declares Him an awesome, blameless, and just judge and avenger thereof.


Some do not yet clearly discern in themselves a living faith in Christ, an assured confidence of heart, peace of conscience, a zeal for childlike obedience, and a glorying in God through Christ; nevertheless, they use the means through which God has promised to work these things in us. They ought not to be alarmed when reprobation is mentioned, nor to count themselves among the reprobate. Rather, they must diligently continue in the use of these means, fervently desire a time of more abundant grace, and expect it reverently and humbly. Others seriously desire to be converted to God, to please Him only, and to be delivered from the body of death. Yet they cannot reach that point on the way of godliness and faith which they would like. They should be even less terrified by the doctrine of reprobation, since a merciful God has promised not to quench the smoking flax nor to break the bruised reed.

Still others disregard God and the Saviour Jesus Christ and have completely given themselves over to the cares of the world and the lusts of the flesh. For them this doctrine of reprobation is rightly fearsome as long as they are not seriously converted.

To those who argue against this grace of undeserved election and the severity of righteous reprobation, we reply with this word of the apostle: But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? (Rom_9:20) And with this word of our Saviour, Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to Me? (Matthew 20:15)

We, however, with reverent adoration of these mysteries, exclaim with the apostle: O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counsel? Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory for ever. Amen (Rom_11:33-36).
 
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