Rather confused on Reformers

Originally posted by quizzler
Am i only as smart as God makes me? 

Do i have to wait for God to move my arm before i can do the work of God? 

Am i capable of Thinking without God telling me what to think? 

Is Satan just a puppet and we are puppets and nothing happens without the Great Puppetier causing us to do something?

Does God make us sin even though He is the author of the Bible and told us He can not make us sin? 

Is it God right now pushing my fingers?  Do i have the capability of thought? 

Am i a figment of my imagination?

Is God in such control that my fingers don't move without Him making them move?

Is God in such control that he my thought are the thoughts that he chose for me to have?

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Are you actually asking this questions or are you just trying to be funny?  I'd be happy to reply but I'm guessing that you don't really want to understand the reformation movement or the doctrines espoused therein.  None of these things depict the reformation theology.

God bless

Does God make us sin even though He is the author of the Bible and told us He can not make us sin?

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I'd love an answer to this one, actually. Along those lines, why does a loving God create those sinners, just to burn them in Hell forever?

Originally posted by s0uljah
Along those lines, why does a loving God create those sinners, just to burn them in Hell forever?

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I'm not sure if you're asking anyone or quizzer, who doesn't seem to have his own questions about the doctrines of the reformation, seemingly due to misinformation or misunderstanding.

Anyway, I've answered this for you numerous times.  His purpose in not saving some is not for the good or bad of the unregenerate.  It's not about them.  Regardless of their predestined salvitic disposition they are here for one purpose and one purpose only.  The chosen of God are conformed to the righteousness of Christ by the unregenerate's wickedness.  It's about testing.  It's about contrasts.  How could you learn the godly attribute of forgiveness if no one ever needed forgiving?  How could you learn the godly attribute of patience if you never had to deal with difficult people?  How could you learn what true biblical love is if some people weren't so difficult to love?  How could you fully appreciate the magnificence of God's holiness if you didn't see the utter depravity of mankind?

That help at all?

God bless

Why test the "chosen of God" if they are already chosen?

Does God make us sin even though He is the author of the Bible and told us He can not make us sin?

I'd love an answer to this one, actually. Along those lines, why does a loving God create those sinners, just to burn them in Hell forever?

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God doesn't make you sin. You sin because you want to.

And it's foolish to talk about "those sinners." You are one of them. you sin just like the rest of humanity, it is not something that only others do.

I have to agree with Reformationist. These questions are not about reformation or protestantism, they are just here to provoke a fight. They aren't even logical questions. "Does God make us sin even though he said he can't make us sin?" That's so illogical it has no answer.

Originally posted by s0uljah
Why test the "chosen of God" if they are already chosen?

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Well, that's actually a great question.  I believe it to be because salvation is different from sanctification.  As it says in James it is the testing of our faith that produces perseverance:

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,<SUP> </SUP>knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

God bless

I think God is fully in control. But we have a free will. But we can only do what God allows us to do... but He doesn't make us sin, either.

I don't know how it works, but that's what the "Bible tells me so," so ..... it's above my head.

/me agrees with Reformationist too (what a fitting name for the thread )... God teaches us to be Holy

And we need a lot of teaching, especially me

Originally posted by quizzler
I fully believe that God is soveriegn(if i spelled it right).&nbsp; But I also believe that in His soveriegnity He has given us the ability to make choices.

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I agree completely.&nbsp; Well said.

I just don't understand what reformist believe God controls and doesn't control, per se.

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Well, in my view, God controls&nbsp;all things.&nbsp; How the ability for man to make decisions that seem to be contrary to what God desires is definitely confusing.&nbsp; All I can say on that is that God designed all things to work to the good of those He&nbsp;has chosen, to include the willfully rebellious actions&nbsp;of fallen man.

God bless

Originally posted by paulewog
I think God is fully in control. But we have a free will. But we can only do what God allows us to do... but He doesn't make us sin, either.

I don't know how it works, but that's what the "Bible tells me so," so ..... it's above my head.

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Very true bro.&nbsp; Well said.

And we need a lot of teaching, especially me

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You're not alone in that need bro.&nbsp; We all need the same things.

God bless

Originally posted by quizzler
Thanks for the answers.

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Your welcome brother.

I'm sure i came off to strong at first. I have a tendency to do that.

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Well, I can't say I'm innocent of&nbsp;coming off strongly.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's all about learning and growing though man.&nbsp; I&nbsp;applaud your&nbsp;desire to find the truth.

God bless

Ref have time from your house to answer my posts on the other thread? Thanx bro.

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Ref have time from your house to answer my posts on the other thread? Thanx bro.

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Oh man.&nbsp; I'm sorry.&nbsp; I'll go to it right now.

God bless

Originally posted by Reformationist
Well, that's actually a great question.&nbsp; I believe it to be because salvation is different from sanctification.&nbsp; As it says in James it is the testing of our faith that produces perseverance:

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,<SUP> </SUP>knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

God bless

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Ok, I am lost here man. What? Why do they need their faith strengthened? If they are chosen, and have weak faith, what does it matter how weak it is, if they are chosen already? Circular reasoning, aint it?

Originally posted by s0uljah
Ok, I am lost here man. What? Why do they need their faith strengthened? If they are chosen, and have weak faith, what does it matter how weak it is, if they are chosen already? Circular reasoning, aint it?

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Do you not remember what you were like when you were first saved?&nbsp; Newly saved people are "on fire" for God but don't know the first thing about Him.&nbsp; The devolpment of&nbsp;godly attributes isn't something that happens the second we are saved.&nbsp; It's happens over the course of our lives.&nbsp; Even the Apostles pleaded to Christ for Him to increase their faith.

God bless

Originally posted by s0uljah
Ok, I am lost here man. What? Why do they need their faith strengthened? If they are chosen, and have weak faith, what does it matter how weak it is, if they are chosen already? Circular reasoning, aint it?

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Well you believe that we must have faith in God to be a Christian right? That basically we choose to put our faith in God.&nbsp; But if this is true then why would these people after putting their faith in God need their faith stregnthend?&nbsp; They are already saved right?&nbsp; Basically it comes down that it is God's will that we remain here after becoming a Christian and go through a process of santification.&nbsp; Why does God do this?&nbsp; I do not know.&nbsp; (I seem to be saying that more and more as I learn more and more.)&nbsp; But that is His will.&nbsp; So I do not see how any Christian gets away with not having to&nbsp; answer your question.&nbsp; The only real answer I know of is that God wills it and so it is done.&nbsp;

It is kind of like limited atonement.&nbsp; Many Arminians say to Calvinists how can the Calvinists version of God choose only to save some.&nbsp; Well no one cna get around that question unless one believes in unlimited atonement but if that is so then why evangelize?&nbsp; Also some say "Well how can God choose to save only some and not others specifically?"&nbsp; Well doesn't God do that?&nbsp; God could make it so a guy in Iraq would be in the position of choosing Christ instead of me but He chose that I would be in the right position and not him.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Again everyone has to answer these questions.&nbsp; These types of questions come back and bite you when you are not looking.&nbsp;

As for me I am basically a 5 point Calvinist now.&nbsp; I have thought much about it and feel that it is the closest to the truth of anything out there. I do not know if I go with it 100% but I am in about 90% agreement.&nbsp; (dont you love those %)&nbsp;

Anyways I have not discussed these issues for awhile because I needed to think over my views and to pray.&nbsp; I just had to give my $.02 now because i feel itis the right time to come back.

Quizzler wrote:But I also believe that in His soveriegnity He has given us the ability to make choices.&nbsp; I just don't understand what reformist believe God controls and doesn't control, per se.&nbsp;
&nbsp;

Here is how I explain it:&nbsp; Before you are saved you do not have free choice.&nbsp; ANYTHING you choose is not for God, thus it is sinful and evil (Matthew12:30).&nbsp; Whether you pet the cat or kick the cat, it matters not to God at that point.&nbsp; Once you are regenerate and cleansed by Christ's blood you are a child of God.&nbsp; Now you have free choice.&nbsp; You can sin or not sin.&nbsp; Pet the cat-good, kick the cat-bad or sin.&nbsp; BUT, do not think that YOU are in control.&nbsp;&nbsp;God has fore-ordained what He will allow and what He will not allow.&nbsp; Your sin may be a necessary part of the events that fulfill God's plan.&nbsp; If so, He will allow it, but you will be held accountable for it.&nbsp; As we see with Judas' betrayal.&nbsp; See Matthew 26:23-24 "He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray me.&nbsp; The&nbsp;Son of Man goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to the man by whom the&nbsp;Son of Man is betrayed!&nbsp; It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."&nbsp;&nbsp; Judas was a necessary part of God's plan, but he will be held accountable just as well.&nbsp;

Furthermore, do not try to imagine that God functions according to our timeline.&nbsp; He does not react to us.&nbsp; Your life and mine were laid out before the foundations of the world.&nbsp; Does that make us robots?&nbsp; If so, I would rather be God's robot than sin's.