Lack of finances=lack of faith?

JohnR7 · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer
He cares about the birds and the lillies of the field are in great array so how much more will He care for and array (which means rich apparial) us. 

He feeds the birds, but He does not throw food in their nest. They still have to go out and gather it. He provides food for the babys, but the parents still have to leave the nest to go get it.

I am not that concerned about "rich apparial". I want the people who are coming to christ to feel comfortable and a lot of the time they are not that well dressed. But I think we need to honor God also, and not look like a bunch of rag muffins.

Blackhawk · Oct 10, 2002

part 1 - please excuse how confusing it turned out to be.  I can't get rid of the other junk that is showing up each time I save it.  If anoyone knows how to get rid of it can you please PM me and if you are a staff member can you clear it up?  I have tried but it is all crazy.

Originally posted by Quaffer

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">He most likely did not need it, but He still had it. We don't know if He purchased it at Lord & Taylor <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" oreferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><vath o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></vath><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 11.25pt; HEIGHT: 11.25pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\Owner\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>or if someone gave it to Him. But we do know He wore it.

He only needed transitory. His ministry was only going to be for 3 years.

If you keep getting rid of clothes then you have to keep buying clothes. If we are able to buy better quality then in the long run we spend less money because they don't wear as fast.<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: white; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">

My point in saying all I was saying was to show that your argument about the tomb and other things that Jesus had to borrow were only borrowed because they were transitory is not a good argument.  Why?  Because much of what He owned was just transitory. 

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">Maybe that's what Philip meant and maybe not. It's speculative either way.<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">  [/B]

I do not think it is speculative.  Reread the verses about what happened.  It is veryclear to me that Phillip was saying that even if they spent much money that they could not feed the people.  And that he chose an amount that they would did not have.  he chose an amount that way beyond what they could afford. 

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">You do not know everyone's situation. You are not to judge another man's servant. I have no desire for a BMW, but if God were to give me one, I don't think I'd refuse it. <v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" oreferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><vath o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></vath><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 11.25pt; HEIGHT: 11.25pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\Owner\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>It's true, no one needs to have more money than they can use. That's why we're supposed to give. But how can I give what I don't have? My excess is to become a blessing to someone else.

2 Cor 9:8  [/B][/QUOTE] 

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">Sure if God gives you much wealth (in the Bible wealth is shown as not just a blessing) then yes it is for you to give to others.  However a BMW is not a need.  A need is something I must have in order to survive or live in a functional way.  But no I would not refuse a BMW if God chose to give it to me but I value much greater gifts than a BMW that will breakdown and eventually rust.  That is like the wealth of this world.  It is not the greatest of gifts.  God is the greatest gift of all.  

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">Let me say one other thing.  I can judge the beliefs of another.  I am not sayig that I know that they will go to hell or whatever but I can judge that a BMW is not a need.  And I will say that if someone says that a BMW is a need then they are wrong.  Taking your comment about me not judging "another man's servant" to its logical conclusion one then can't say to the gnostic that they are wrong.  OR what about the beliefs of ceratin radical fundalmentalists?  How can you judge their beliefs if you can't judge the belief of another that says that a BMW is a need?
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: white; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">I am going

Blackhawk · Oct 10, 2002

I don't believe I've taken it out of context at all. We live by faith, according to the Word of God. Not our word, but His. I personally, need things that someone else does not need. And if God want's to work it out so I have something that's a want I'm not going to tell Him "no thanks" [/B]

I would not reject God giving me a want either but that is not the point here. I am saying that welath is not a need and that there are much greater blessings than wealth and that the Bible even suggests that wealth can be kind of a curse. The rich man would not give up his wealth and give it to the poor because he loved it so much. He did not realize that the wealth of God is much more than worldly riches.

Your story. I had to cut it out because of length. [/B]

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I have no problem with this. The problem i have is that when one would question the couple's faith if God did not provide them with those tickets. Material wealth is not necessarily an indicator of a person's faith. In the Bible many were faithful but not rich.

And what about the other times where He told them different? Each situation is different. We're to operate according to how the Holy Spirit leads, each and every time.

Luke 22:35, 36

I think you are right on here. I was showing an example when the disciples got their needs met but not their wants but were in the will of God.

l

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Blackhawk · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew  

If you want to talk about needs, do we really need to live in a house? Why not on the streets or in the desert like John the Baptist. Do we really need bread and water? Why not just locust and wild honey?

If we are speaking of needs then yes we do not need much.  I would even say the only thing I really need is the Lord. 

  If you go by that reasoning, where do you draw the line? Who gives you the authority to say Ok a Christian lifestyle shld be this: No BMWs, no mansions, no.... next you'll be specifying how many CC, land area etc -- it sounds all real Communistic. [/B]

I am not saying that a Christian has to be poor.  I am saying that riches do not show that one has much faith and someone being poor does not mean that one has little.  Also I am saying that BMWs and mansions are not needs but wants but I am not saying that because they are wants that they are necessarily bad.  But what should we really strive for?  I say we should strive for God and if He wants to give us wealth then that is great but if not then that is great also for God gives us what we should have. 

 Then ask yourself also, did Abraham/Job need that many servants and cattle-- hundreds, thousands. The Bible said he was VERY RICH. I'm sure they didnt "need" all that abundance! And if as you say they dont "need" all that, why did God bless them with all that? Did God make a boo-boo? [/B]

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No.  I am just saying that no they did not need all their wealth.  They needed their relationship with God.  God will make His will be done whether we are rich or not.  And I also say that some of us will never be materially rich because God is fulfilling His purposes.  However we should not fret if we are one of the poor ones because materially riches ar nothing compared to God and His other blessings. 

See I am rejecting this judging of individuals faith based upon their welath and I am also rejecting the view that God wants everyoe financially rich.  I think God wants some to be rich and some to be poor.  The thing is whatever God gives to us we do not deserve so we need to praise Him for anything He chooses to give us and be humble in His sovereignty. 

scott · Oct 10, 2002

Here's an interesting concept. What if God bless people not based on their faith but on their faithfulness? Remember the parable of the 10 talents?
Scott

SpiritPsalmist · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by JohnR7
He feeds the birds, but He does not throw food in their nest. They still have to go out and gather it. He provides food for the babys, but the parents still have to leave the nest to go get it.

I am not that concerned about "rich apparial". I want the people who are coming to christ to feel comfortable and a lot of the time they are not that well dressed. But I think we need to honor God also, and not look like a bunch of rag muffins.

I'm not in dissagreement with you John.  We need to be in position with the Lord where either position is OK.  And not be judging because in our opinion someone dresses too fancy or not fancy enough. I, technically, am not a fancy dresser.  But the Lord keeps sending them my way. . .what can I say?

My referrence was to show that God does not want us to be concerned with it. . .If we do what we're supposed to do, He will make the way for supply of whatever it is we need.  Whether is be enough, or more than enough.

JohnR7 · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer
I, technically, am not a fancy dresser.  But the Lord keeps sending them my way. . .what can I say? 

The is a lot of clothing out there. Esp. women's & children's clothing.  It is not unusual for us to pay fifth cents for a pair of pants that sells for up to $30 and twenty five cents for a shirt.

We have a village in the Philippines and just recently we have started to sponser a village in India. It is no problem at all to get clothing, even for free. The problem is having to pay the $2 a pound shipping to get it over there. We have a freight consolidator for the Philippines, so it cost more like $1 a pound. But we still have not found a consolidator for India.

SpiritPsalmist · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I would not reject God giving me a want either but that is not the point here. I am saying that welath is not a need and that there are much greater blessings than wealth and that the Bible even suggests that wealth can be kind of a curse. The rich man would not give up his wealth and give it to the poor because he loved it so much. He did not realize that the wealth of God is much more than worldly riches.

Blackhawk,

I agree with you, wealth is not a need.  There are much greater things than great wealth.  And yes, the Bible says that "the love of money is the root of evil."

I have a problem though with christians who accuse those who do have as being unspiritual because they have.  God has brought me long way out of the "don't have".  God has shown me why I did'nt have and He's helping me clean all that up.  And I look forward to the day that I am completely out of dept and I'm able to pay all my monthly bills on time and even give more to others and help them pay their bills.  Why am I wrong to desire that?  He tells us to give.  How can I obey that command if I never have it to give?

My main desire is Jesus.  My whole life revolves around Jesus. Everything that I am is because of Him.  He does not promise to give me more than what I need.  But as a result of "me abiding in Him, and His Word abiding in me", He just can't help himself. . .He gives me things I don't "need", and when He gives me more than I need, I'm able to bless someone else.

I have no problem with this. The problem i have is that when one would question the couple's faith if God did not provide them with those tickets. Material wealth is not necessarily an indicator of a person's faith. In the Bible many were faithful but not rich.

The thing is that God did supply.  Why do we continue to opperate on "what if's"?  I certainly whould not have questioned their faith.  I can't judge another man's servant.

And what about the other times where He told them different? Each situation is different. We're to operate according to how the Holy Spirit leads, each and every time.

Luke 22:35, 36

I think you are right on here. I was showing an example when the disciples got their needs met but not their wants but were in the will of God.

Again, I have no dissagreement with that.  I believe I keep saying that it varies with each situation.  Most of the time God supplies the job and we have to earn the money we need to buy whatever it is we need.  Sometimes He sends someone to give it to us.   And sometimes, we may just find it on the road.  God builds faith differently in each of us.

Sometimes we get in the way and cause the process to take longer than it should.  Sometimes we tie His hands and the enemy attacks and when we have nowhere else to go then we seek Him.  If we had listened, He could have taught us the lesson we learned without the trial.  But unfortunately, most of us do not learn that way.

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SpiritPsalmist · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by JohnR7
The is a lot of clothing out there. Esp. women's & children's clothing.  It is not unusual for us to pay fifth cents for a pair of pants that sells for up to $30 and twenty five cents for a shirt.

We have a village in the Philippines and just recently we have started to sponser a village in India. It is no problem at all to get clothing, even for free. The problem is having to pay the $2 a pound shipping to get it over there. We have a freight consolidator for the Philippines, so it cost more like $1 a pound. But we still have not found a consolidator for India.

God is good, aint' He

I have a friend who was walking through a dept store and saw a sweater she really liked.  She looked at the tag and is way above her budget.  As she walked away she said, "well God, I really liked that sweater, but it's too much money".  About 20 minutes later she walked by the table again and a sale tag had been put on the sweater and it was now half price.  She bought it.

SpiritPsalmist · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
At least we are agreeing here

They were 12 so you expect them to have a way of budgeting their money. Having a treasurer does not mean they were rich. Thats why they were having a problem feeding the 5000 people. If they were rich the bible could have at least said so and indicate their source of revenue. Since they were moslty spreading the gospel they did not have much time to make money.  

Where does it say they were having a problem.  Asking a question does not signify a problem.  These men had been with Jesus for some time already.  I don't believe they were "worried". 

Their source of revenue was "offerings".

Remember in true spirituality there is no business going to work. It is called "Seek first the Kingdom of God". But we have little faith and thats why we go to work. Spirituality is the opposite of the physical.

Where did you get that?    I guess Paul was unspiritual then when he made tents to support himself.  2 Thess 3:10, that's NT, says "if you don't work, you don't eat".  So you're wrong.

You don't sell souvenirs, you keep them

If they had wanted souvenirs, they each could have had a piece.

Alright explain this error

Mathew 22
 35  And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. 
 36  "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 
 37  And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 

Luke 10
25  And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 
 26  He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" 
 27  And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 
 28  And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."  

In Mathew it is Jesus who answered the question while in Luke it was the lawyer 

Just because the profession of the questioner in each referrence was a lawyer does not mean this is the same event described by two different people.

In Matt 22 the lawyer asks, "which is the great commandment in the law?"

In the Luke 10 the lawyer asks, "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 

The surroundings of each is also different.  Jesus is talking about different things before and after.

I would logically conclude they are two different situations with two different lawyers.

Where's the error? 

JohnR7 · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
   we only need to get clothes from a thrift store or Kmart but we want to get them from Nordstroms or Neiman Marcus.  

Same difference. The people in the Philippines are starting to get a bit "spoiled" and are asking for more of the name brand clothing. It is available at the thrift stores. A lot of it in really good condition. Sometimes it takes a bit of patience to go though the stuff. But there are some good finds there for anyone who is willing to go through it.

We find so much stuff for 10 cents on the dollar it is unreal. I just found a big radio controled car at a garage sale with 4 rechargeable batterys for $5. My son and I have been having a good time playing with that. We could easily fill up our garage with toys that were either very inexpensive or even given to us if we were not careful not to accumilate that stuff.

I have a friend with a small daughter who could have gotten one of those wooden swing play sets for $20 if he was willing to haul it off. Those things can cost as much as $500 or more new.

It just seems to me that the more we give, the more we seem to have. I try to give all this stuff away, but we just keep dragging home more of it all the time. They either give it to us, or the price is so good I just can not pass it up.

SpiritPsalmist · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by JohnR7
It just seems to me that the more we give, the more we seem to have. I try to give all this stuff away, but we just keep dragging home more of it all the time. They either give it to us, or the price is so good I just can not pass it up.

 

You too? 

I've experienced the exact same thing.  I keep giving stuff away and more keeps coming.  God is just too good! :angel:

JohnR7 · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer
About 20 minutes later she walked by the table again and a sale tag had been put on the sweater and it was now half price.  She bought it.

My problem is my wife works in a clothing store. She is the one who marks the price down on that stuff. It reaches a point where they put a dollar or two dollars on things and then she starts to buy it.

The good thing is that she is allowed to take it back. A lot of it she does end up returning. About half of it. Sometimes when they mark it down for clearance, you can get better deals at the store new, then you can get at the thrift shop.

spiritualscientist · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer

 

Where does it say they were having a problem.  Asking a question does not signify a problem.  These men had been with Jesus for some time already.  I don't believe they were "worried". 

 

Who said they were worried? We were discussing their financial wealth. You were on the opinion that Jesus was very rich. But I was trying to say if He was rich the disciples would not have said they don't have enough money to feed the 5000. Try to stick to the context of our discussion.

 

Where did you get that?    I guess Paul was unspiritual then when he made tents to support himself.  2 Thess 3:10, that's NT, says "if you don't work, you don't eat".  So you're wrong.

I meant true spirituality. Spirituality is in degrees. While we are in physical form we cannot be able to attain 100% spirituality. The more we need to move into spirituality (seek the Kingdom of God) the more we must forget the physical. Here I am talking about total dedication to God as in worship and prayers 

 

If they had wanted souvenirs, they each could have had a piece.

They each got a piece.

 

Where's the error? 

There is no error only if we assume there were different lawyers But there is no reason to be confident that it is not an error.

Alright what about this

Matthew 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 
Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God

In Matthew it is "poor in spirit" in Luke it is just "poor" 

Blackhawk · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer

I have a problem though with christians who accuse those who do have as being unspiritual because they have.  God has brought me long way out of the "don't have".  God has shown me why I did'nt have and He's helping me clean all that up.  And I look forward to the day that I am completely out of dept and I'm able to pay all my monthly bills on time and even give more to others and help them pay their bills.  Why am I wrong to desire that?  He tells us to give.  How can I obey that command if I never have it to give?

I do not have a problem with those that have but give.  Those that God has blessed with wealth but yet they are very spiritual.  I do not think you are wrong to desire to pay your bills on time or anything like that.  My problem is with people who say the opposite of what you have a problem with.  The ones that say that if you do not have a lot of money then that is because you do not have enough faith.

I live a confortable life.  I am rich compared to 90% of the world because I am an american. But even by American standards I am confortable.  I am not rich in american standards but I have more than enough money to pay the bills and I praise God for that.  I praise Him that I am healthy and that He has given me a job and cheap seminary housing.  So I have no problem with you desiring to have enough money to pay bills on time. I believe w are commanded to be god stewards of the money He has given us to use. 

I guess to make it blunt I reject this theory.  That if you are a Christian and rich you have much faith and if you are a Christian and poor it is because you do not have enough faith.   

My main desire is Jesus.  My whole life revolves around Jesus. Everything that I am is because of Him.  He does not promise to give me more than what I need.  But as a result of "me abiding in Him, and His Word abiding in me", He just can't help himself. . .He gives me things I don't "need", and when He gives me more than I need, I'm able to bless someone else.

Amen!

The thing is that God did supply.  Why do we continue to opperate on "what if's"?  I certainly whould not have questioned their faith.  I can't judge another man's servant.

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I amjust trying ot make my point.  I have no problem with what you said about the vouple.  God provides for us.  And He does so in ways that go way beyond what we need.  However sometimes it is in ways that we do not expect.

Again, I have no dissagreement with that.  I believe I keep saying that it varies with each situation.  Most of the time God supplies the job and we have to earn the money we need to buy whatever it is we need.  Sometimes He sends someone to give it to us.   And sometimes, we may just find it on the road.  God builds faith differently in each of us.

Sometimes we get in the way and cause the process to take longer than it should.  Sometimes we tie His hands and the enemy attacks and when we have nowhere else to go then we seek Him.  If we had listened, He could have taught us the lesson we learned without the trial.  But unfortunately, most of us do not learn that way. [/B]

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I have no problem with that. Again I only have a problem when riches become a measuring rod of faith.  God does have use of financially poor Christians.  but I believe all Christians are rich because we have a relationship with God. 

Also I have problems with some Christians who put so emphasis on the material gifts of God.  I think that they miss God which is the true gift of salvation.  I know what you believe but many of the people in the WOF movement put an emphasis on how to get rich and not on God. 

Anyways, I think we are saying the same things now.  So unless you disagree with me saying that God does not want all to be financially rich then I think we can go on to other things. I hope we run into each other somewhere else.  It has been interesting discussing this with you.   

Andrew · Oct 10, 2002

"I think God wants some to be rich and some to be poor."

The bolded part simply goes against scripture.

If it were true, why did Jesus say the Spirit is upon me to preach good news to the poor? What's the good news? that God wants some to be poorer still?

Why did Christ redeem us from the curse of the law, one of which is poverty? Deu 28/Ga 3:13

That bolded part simply goes against Christ's atoning work.

God wants us to prosper, plain and simple, but there's Godly prosperity and there's bad prosperity (both are discussed in the book of wisdom). We're just after the former.

Blackhawk · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
"I think God wants some to be rich and some to be poor."

The bolded part simply goes against scripture.

What scripture?

If it were true, why did Jesus say the Spirit is upon me to preach good news to the poor? What's the good news? that God wants some to be poorer still? [/B]

The good news is the gospel.  The good news is that our sins our forgiven because Jesus died for them ona cross.  To quote a song that i like. 

He paid a debt He did not owe. I owed a debt I could not pay.  I needed someone to wash my sins away.  And now I sing a brand new song. Amazing grace all day long.  Christ Jesus paid the debt that I could never pay. 

That is the good news.  Not Burl Ives song "Silver and Gold" from Rudolph.  (sorry I am in a song mood)

Why did Christ redeem us from the curse of the law, one of which is poverty? Deu 28/Ga 3:13

That bolded part simply goes against Christ's atoning work.

God wants us to prosper, plain and simple, but there's Godly prosperity and there's bad prosperity (both are discussed in the book of wisdom). We're just after the former. [/B]

Click to expand...

well deut 28 is speaking about blessings but we can't just say that we will be materially blessed becuae of it. I think that you also have a problem because this was a covenant with God and certain people.  Also not all Godly men in the Bible were financially blessed because of their faith.  Best example is Job. 

Also what about this scripture?

Matt 6:19-21
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
(NAU)

 

spiritualscientist · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk

Also what about this scripture?

Matt 6:19-21
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
(NAU)

 

Thank you. This should summarize the debate we are having here. I don't know why it is hard for some Christians to understand this scripture.

SnuP · Oct 10, 2002

We are saying that by storing up treasures in heaven, God has this tendency of blessing us on earth with earthly riches. These riches are not treasures to us, so we tend to give them away (we are not storing them). God desires to pour you out a blessing that you cannot bear, but only if all of your treasures are in heaven and not on earth.

I meant true spirituality. Spirituality is in degrees. While we are in physical form we cannot be able to attain 100% spirituality. The more we need to move into spirituality (seek the Kingdom of God) the more we must forget the physical. Here I am talking about total dedication to God as in worship and prayers

This is simply untrue. At salvation we reciece all of God, all of God, all. The problem is that many have a simple problem of releasing it. It like buying a new computer system with all of the bells and whisles. when you first get it home you already own every thing, but it may take you months to learn all of the software, and years the master it. When we are saved we become exactly like Jesus, except for our old habbits which seem to pop up and our fears and our judgements and our character. But we have everything that Jesus had at our disposal, all the power and athority and spirituality. We are perfect, exept for our flesh. But like Jesus we are given power over our flesh, but we must chose to use it, we must chose to release it. You can do everthing that Jesus did starting tomorrow if you will just do two simple things.

1. Love the Lord your God with all that you are (ie look to Him in everything for everyanswer).

2. Love your neighbor as yourself (stoping being so selfish and become selfless)

This concept make up the basis for the entire WOF movement.

Andrew · Oct 11, 2002

quote: "What scripture?"

2Co 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

¥ prosperity part of the cross!

Ro 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

¥ now it says all things -- not basic needs!

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

¥ well here's your health and wealth "gospel" in a nutshell.

1Ti 6:17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

¥ hmmm again doesnt sound like just basic needs which we aren't supp to enjoy!

1Co 4:8
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

¥ can the poor reign in life?

Prov 3:16
Length of days is in her right hand, In her left are wealth and honour.

¥ hmmm Godly wealth from the Lord that comes with honour!

Prov 8:18
Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity.

¥ again Godly wealth endures!

Prov 8:21
endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.

¥ filling their treasuries.... basic necessities? doesnt sound like it!

Prov 10:4
A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.

¥ quite clear remaining poor isnt praised.

Prov 10:15
A rich man's wealth is his strong city; the poverty of the poor is their ruin.

¥ again, poverty is something good, plain and simple!

Prov 10:22
The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

¥ yes, no need to feel apologetic cos Jesus sure aint apologetic for it!

Deu 28:
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

¥ can the poor be high above all nations??

2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

¥ wow! blessings overtaking me! doesnt sound like basic needs!

3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

¥ sounds pretty much material to me!

5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.

6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

8 The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

plenteous in goods? But Lord, some say only what's needed! ok they're wrong!

12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

so are the poor lending? more like they are the borrowers!

13 And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

want me to go on? let's see...prosperity is part of redemption:

39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.

plus

Ga 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Hallelujah! We are redeemed from poverty!!! so how can one say God wants some poor!!!???

Lack of finances=lack of faith?

Is not having money or having little money a sign of weak faith or no faith?

No, money has no bearing on who you are as a Christian

No, the poorer actually have a deeper faith than the rich

Yes, weak faith.

If you are a real Christian you cannot be poor.

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