Would Aileen Wournos be on her way to heaven now??

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Soul_Searcher

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I was just offering different scenarios Ed, but how about these:

John 8:7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8: And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9: And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

or Luke 23:40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

or Luke 17:3: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

or Mark 11: 24: Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25: And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

It seems one need only ask God's forgiveness and repent of one's sins to be forgiven. That's what unconditional love is all about.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by AtheistArchon
- Wow... I'm somewhat shocked at all the people who feel that a simple deathbed conversion can attone for mass murder.  I thought God was just?  Surely... if atheists and nonbelievers burn in hell, then mass murderers must also?

- Can the families of those who were murdered rest easy knowing their killer is safe with God, having earned a place alongside their loved ones who were killed?  I wonder.

- Which is worse: unbelief, or murder?  I mean to you personally... I know what the bible says already.

Yes, God is just. That's why there is His WORD, the BiblE, THAT tells us what to DO and NOT to do.

Apostle Paul  wrote that those who PRACTICE adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries and the like, will NOT inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21).

In FACT, one who HATES his brother (in the faith) is a MURDERER  and NO murderer has eternal lfe abiding in him (1 John 3:15).

I'm NOT saying though that a death-bed conversion is enough to warrant Aileen's passage to heaven. And BTW, even if death-bed conversion were true, NOBODY including king David has ascended to heaven.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Starscream
Notice the implication that she was only 'innocent' up until the time she got pregnant.  I'm so pleased that I don't feel the need to force every person on Earth into nice little pigeon holes.

Let's NOT be coy about this Starscream. Isn't it true that anyone who has NOT had any sexual relations is considered by the society we live in as "innocent?" And getting pregnant at 13  is considered not only as "loss of innocence" but also as sin because no judge in his right mind would marry a 13 year old child. Hence, the sexual relations she had at 13 is seen as fornication by God.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
]I was just offering different scenarios Ed, but how about these:

John 8:7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8: And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9: And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

While it is true that the woman was saved from being stoned to death, these verses do NOT give any indication that the woman will attain eternal life nor is there any indication that her sins were forgiven. No man, including Jesus, condemned her and Jesus exhorted her to sin NO more but that's as far as the story goes. Whether the woman will enter the kingdom of heaven or not is NOT shown in these verses.

or Luke 23:40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

These verses tell us that the thief was assured of salvation by Jesus personally because Jesus had the power on earth to FORGIVE sins (Mark 2:10). But there is NOTHING in the Bible which tells us that the thief ASCNDED to heaven.

Did the thief ASCEND to heaven AHEAD of Christ? Did the thief ASCEND to heaven AFTER Christ ascended to heaven? The Bible does NOT say anything about this. In FACT, the Bible teaches that king David was still buried 700 years AFTER he died (Acts 2:29, 34).

Did the thief ASCEND to heaven WITH Christ? The Bible teaches that Christ ASCENDED to heaven ALONE (Acts 1:11).

or Luke 17:3: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

or Mark 11: 24: Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25: And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

These words were addressed to Christ's DISCIPLES.  These are the ones who have been RECONCILED to God in ONE body (Eph. 2:16) because they have been REDEEMED by the blood of Christ and their sins have been FORGIVEN (Col. 1:13-14).

God does NOT hear the prayer of people who have NOT been RECONCILED to Him because they have NOT been REDEEMED by the blood of Christ and their SINS have NOT been forgiven (Is. 59:2). 

It seems one need only ask God's forgiveness and repent of one's sins to be forgiven. That's what unconditional love is all about.

This belief is NOT in accordance with God's word. To be REDEEMED by the blood of Christ and RECEIVE forgiveness of sins, one must be DELIVERED by God "from the power of darkness and TRANSLATED into the kingdom of His Son where there is REDEMPTION throuh his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins" (Col. 1:13-14).

Ed
 
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Soul_Searcher

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Ed, you are a hard one, which makes this lots of fun. You said, This belief is NOT in accordance with God's word. To be REDEEMED by the blood of Christ and RECEIVE forgiveness of sins, one must be DELIVERED by God "from the power of darkness and TRANSLATED into the kingdom of His Son where there is REDEMPTION throuh his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins" (Col. 1:13-14)."

And how is one to be redeemed if not through prayer to God? How is one to be forgiven if not by asking God or Jesus for forgiveness, again through prayer? I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense, at least not to anyone outside of your little cult. I mean, how else are we 'delivered' by God if not by repentence and prayer and faith in God and Jesus? If it took this woman to her deathbed(as it were) to realize there is a God and God loves her then so be it. Who are you to judge?
 
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Annabel Lee

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Originally posted by edpobre
Let's NOT be coy about this Starscream. Isn't it true that anyone who has NOT had any sexual relations is considered by the society we live in as "innocent?" And getting pregnant at 13  is considered not only as "loss of innocence" but also as sin because no judge in his right mind would marry a 13 year old child. Hence, the sexual relations she had at 13 is seen as fornication by God.

Ed
A 13 year old child can not give their consent. She didn't lose her innocence, it was taken from her.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by AtheistArchon
- Wow... I'm somewhat shocked at all the people who feel that a simple deathbed conversion can attone for mass murder.  I thought God was just?  Surely... if atheists and nonbelievers burn in hell, then mass murderers must also?

I think the idea here is that any sin at all is enough to keep you out if you won't accept forgiveness for it.

This is empirically observable in the mundane world. Wrong things you refuse to admit were wrong will forever stand between you and the people you have wronged; admitting you were wrong lets you move past them.
 
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Havoc

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Originally posted by gunnysgt
Love of others is based on declaring to them the truth (Yes, one truth).

Your truth saves no one.

My truth saves no one.

Others truth saves no one.


This truth-Jesus Christ, saves.

JN 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


No hell according to you and others.

MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Every single person is a sinner, saved or not.

Those that trust upon Jesus Christ for the remission/Forgivness of sin are no longer captive of sin. Still sinners? Most definetly.

Being saved doesn't mean one is perfect, just forgiven, due the shed blood of Jesus Christ at Calvary.

Yes Gunny we're pretty much aware of what you believe, and we're also aware that you believe it is the truth. Many of us believe differently. We've no need to change our beliefs to conform to your beliefs, unless you have proof that yours is the truth, which you do not.
 
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Havoc

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Originally posted by edpobre
You talk about love. Is it love to allow your fellow humans to wallow in FALSE beliefs or doctrines?

Love,

Ed

Of course you're assuming their beliefs are false, it's just as likely that yours are false. No religion has a stranglehold on "the truth".
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Annabel Lee
A 13 year old child can not give their consent. She didn't lose her innocence, it was taken from her.

Annabel, would you please stop that? We're trying to hate a vile murderess here, and if you keep making her human, we'll have to feel sorry for her, and Who'd want that to happen? :)
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Havoc
Of course you're assuming their beliefs are false, it's just as likely that yours are false. No religion has a stranglehold on "the truth".

That's why we are in these forums so that we may have the chance to DISCOVER the TRUTH. But we can NOT benefit from these forums if we do NOT open our minds and soften out hearts.

As you will note, I have ALWAYS been quoting the WORD of God to support what I say. All you have to do is open your Bible and follow my post, like some of you do.

Don't be like the most who PRETEND to KNOW everything and DON'T even READ what others post. These people will be "always learning and NEVER able to come to the knowlege of the truth (2 Tim. 3:7).

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Annabel Lee
A 13 year old child can not give their consent. She didn't lose her innocence, it was taken from her.

I stand corrected. You are right, her INNOCENCE was taken from her. Nevertheless, at 13, Aileen was NO LONGER innocent, right? From there, it was SEX all the way, right? I heard she testified that she had SEX with a thousand men.

And all because her INNOCENCE was TAKEN from her at 13. Poor girl!

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
Ed, you are a hard one, which makes this lots of fun. You said,
This belief is NOT in accordance with God's word. To be REDEEMED by the blood of Christ and RECEIVE forgiveness of sins, one must be DELIVERED by God "from the power of darkness and TRANSLATED into the kingdom of His Son where there is REDEMPTION throuh his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins" (Col. 1:13-14)."
 

And how is one to be redeemed if not through prayer to God? How is one to be forgiven if not by asking God or Jesus for forgiveness, again through prayer? I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense, at least not to anyone outside of your little cult. I mean, how else are we 'delivered' by God if not by repentence and prayer and faith in God and Jesus? If it took this woman to her deathbed(as it were) to realize there is a God and God loves her then so be it. Who are you to judge?

No one can be REDEEMED through prayer because NO sin can be FORGIVEN unless one has been REDEEMED. And God does NOT listen to the prayers of anyone whose SINS have NOT been FORGIVEN (Is. 59:2).

The Bible teaches that "according to the law, almost all things are purged with blood, and WITHOUT shedding of blood, there is NO remission" (Hebrews 9:22). Therefore, in order for SINS to be FORGIVEN, one must first be REDEEMED by the blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross.

And as apostle Paul wrote, REDEMPTION through the blood of Christ and FORGIVENESS of sins is FOUND only in the kingdom of God's Son (Col. 1:13-14).

In John 6:44, Jesus SAID: "No one can come to me UNLESS my Father who SENT me DRAWS him, and I will raise him up at he last day."

This means that God CALLS people by the gospel (2 Thess. 2:14) and those who BELIEVE (the gospel) and are BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38-41; Acts 8:37-38; Acts 16:31-33) are ADDED to the CHURCH (Acts 2:41, 47), which is Christ's BODY (Ephesians 1:22-23) of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:18).Thus, people who are CALLED by God are FOUND only in the ONE  body (Col. 3:15), the CHURCH which is Christ's BODY.

This is how God DELIVERS people from the power of darkness and TRANSLATES them into the  kingdom of His Son which is the CHURCH, his BODY.

This CHURCH is the ONE church that Christ BUILT which Christ CALLED "MY church" (Matthew 16:18). That's the reason why apostle Paul called members of THIS church, "CHURCHES of Christ."

This CHURCH is the ONE church that Christ BUILT which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

This CHURCH is the ONE church that Christ BUILT and LOVED so much that Christ GAVE his life FOR it (Ephesians 5:25).

This CHURCH is the ONE church that Christ BUILT and WILL be SAVED by Christ  (Ephesians 5:23) on judgment day.

The CHURCH that Christ BUILT was composed of apostles (the  original 12 plus Judas' replacement) and DISCIPLES who HEARD the gospel from Jesus and his apostles.

These DISCIPLES were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). And according to Jesus, a DISCIPLE is one who BELIEVES in Jesus and ABIDES or STAYS in his DOCTRINE or TEACHING (John 8:31).

For CENTURIES, this ONE church that Christ BUILT did NOT have ANY living member and the TRUE gospel could NOT be preached.

Then on July 27, 1914, this ONE church that Christ BUILT registered with the Philippine government her first 8 LIVING members in FULFILLMENT of prophecy through the COMMISSIONING by God of HIS last messenger in these last days.

This ONE church that Christ BUILT is today called in Pilipino, IGLESIA NI CRISTO which means Church of Christ.

God is again CALLING people by the TRUE gospel and bringing them to Christ for REDEMPTION through his blood and FORGIVENESS of sin (John 6:44; Col. 1:13-14).

That's why OUTSIDE the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the ONE church that Christ BUILT, there is NO salvation.

Ed
 
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Soul_Searcher

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Ed, Ed, Ed, That's why OUTSIDE the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the ONE church that Christ BUILT, there is NO salvation, you are certainly passionate about this all, but it still doesn't make you right. God calls each of us in many ways, yours is but one of those ways, and your faith is but one among many.

You (as spokesman for your church) set too many rules, too many limits, which is why I don't care for Paul's epistles. Paul was all about rules; Jesus was/is all about love and forgiveness. As Jesus said in Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

But I suppose when he says, "In ALL THINGS," it doesn't mean what he said either? So, if I believe, and ask forgiveness, I should receive it.

Jesus repeats this in Matthew 7:7: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you, 8: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

So it seems it's easier than your administrators tell you it is. And these are Jesus' own words, not mine.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
Ed, Ed, Ed, That's why OUTSIDE the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the ONE church that Christ BUILT, there is NO salvation, you are certainly passionate about this all, but it still doesn't make you right. God calls each of us in many ways, yours is but one of those ways, and your faith is but one among many.

You (as spokesman for your church) set too many rules, too many limits, which is why I don't care for Paul's epistles. Paul was all about rules; Jesus was/is all about love and forgiveness. As Jesus said in Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

But I suppose when he says, "In ALL THINGS," it doesn't mean what he said either? So, if I believe, and ask forgiveness, I should receive it.

Jesus repeats this in Matthew 7:7: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you, 8: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

So it seems it's easier than your administrators tell you it is. And these are Jesus' own words, not mine.

OPEN your eyes and SEE! Jesus was talking to his DISCIPLES (Matthew 21:20 and Matthew 5:1). His DISCIPLES are members of the CHURCH which he BUILT. Initially, Jesus called them "little flock" (Luke 12:32) whom apostle Paul later called Church of Christ.

Ed
 
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Soul_Searcher

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What I see Ed is Jesus speaking to EVERYONE, you, me, the Pope, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, whoever. You're still bent on making Jesus exclusive to your cult and it just isn't so. And by the way, in Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, he was speaking to the multitudes that had come from far and wide to see him and listen to him, not just his disciples.

That is why we read the Gospels, to hear Jesus speak to each of us, speak to our hearts and speak to our souls. To think that you and your cult have the corner on God and Jesus is the worst kind of arrogance, with all due respect.
 
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Grizzly

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Originally posted by edpobre
For CENTURIES, this ONE church that Christ BUILT did NOT have ANY living member and the TRUE gospel could NOT be preached.

Then on July 27, 1914, this ONE church that Christ BUILT registered with the Philippine government her first 8 LIVING members in FULFILLMENT of prophecy through the COMMISSIONING by God of HIS last messenger in these last days.

This ONE church that Christ BUILT is today called in Pilipino, IGLESIA NI CRISTO which means Church of Christ.

God is again CALLING people by the TRUE gospel and bringing them to Christ for REDEMPTION through his blood and FORGIVENESS of sin (John 6:44; Col. 1:13-14).

That's why OUTSIDE the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, the ONE church that Christ BUILT, there is NO salvation.

Ed[/b] [/B]

 

Oh Ed.  I was rooting for you too.  I loved the arguments against the divinity of Jesus.  I mean, c'mon, someone can't be 100% God and 100% man - because that adds up to 200%!  And if you are 100% God then that means it is impossible for you to die.  I was with you.

But now the other shoe has fallen.  It appears that you, and your fellow IGLESIA NI CRISTO members have decided that you are the only TRUE CHRISTIANS.  I'm afraid that you are going to have a really hard time trying to convince people of this one.

 

Here is a link to a website that describes IGLESIA NI CRISTO

http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/

I don't think this website is very flattering.  Ed, maybe you could post a link to a site that was a little more pro IGLESIA NI CRISTO.  I couldn't find one.

 

 

 
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
What I see Ed is Jesus speaking to EVERYONE, you, me, the Pope, Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, whoever. You're still bent on making Jesus exclusive to your cult and it just isn't so. And by the way, in Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, he was speaking to the multitudes that had come from far and wide to see him and listen to him, not just his disciples.

If you open your eyes wide, you will see in Matthew 5:2 that Jesus was teaching his DISCIPLES (verse 1). If you go to verses 13-16, Jesus was telling his DISCIPLES that they are the "salt and the light of the world."

Tell me friend, how can the MULTITUDES be the "salt and the light of the world" unless they are ALL Christ's DISCIPLES? Are they?

That is why we read the Gospels, to hear Jesus speak to each of us, to speak to our hearts and speak to our souls.

The problem is, ONLY the SHEEP of Jesus HEAR his voice and FOLLOW (obey) him (John 10:27). That's the reason why DESPITE Protestants' penchant for "reading" the Bible, they CANNNOT hear Jesus SAY he is a MAN. They also CANNOT hear Jesus tell the FATHER that He is the ONLY true God.

To think that you and your cult have the corner on God and Jesus is the worst kind of arrogance, with all due respect.

You call that arrogance? How about this?

"Whoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God. He who ABIDES in the doctrine of Christ has BOTH the Father and the Son" (2 John 1:9).

Apostle SAYS that anyone who does NOT stay in the teaching of Christ does NOT have God. Isn't John 8:40 a doctrine of Christ? Isn't John 17:3 a doctrine of Christ? Do you STAY in these doctrines friend?

Would it be ARROGANCE if we say that we STAY in these doctrines and therefore we have BOTH the Father and the Son?

Ed


 

 
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Grizzly
 Oh Ed.  I was rooting for you too.  I loved the arguments against the divinity of Jesus.  I mean, c'mon, someone can't be 100% God and 100% man - because that adds up to 200%!  And if you are 100% God then that means it is impossible for you to die.  I was with you.

Thanks Grizzly. I return your praises to God.

But now the other shoe has fallen.  It appears that you, and your fellow IGLESIA NI CRISTO members have decided that you are the only TRUE CHRISTIANS.  I'm afraid that you are going to have a really hard time trying to convince people of this one. 

Not really! The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is God's LAST work of SALVATION. God promised his messenger that He will strengthen him, help him and uphold him with the right hand of His righteousness (Is. 41:10) which is the GOSPEL of Christ (Rom. 1:16-17).

Here is a link to a website that describes IGLESIA NI CRISTO

http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/

I don't think this website is very flattering.  Ed, maybe you could post a link to a site that was a little more pro IGLESIA NI CRISTO.  I couldn't find one. 

 

Thanks for posting these links. I haven't found a pro IGLESIA NI CRISTO site either.

I encourage readers to go to these links then copy and paste these in the Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies thread at the Spirituality, Religion and Ethics forum.

I have read the links you have posted. There is NOTHING in there that we CANNOT refute.

Ed
 
 
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