Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Did I say you were unbalanced? Talk about putting words in someone's mouth.
Oh no. Please don't. It's unclear enough already.
God bless
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Did I say you were unbalanced? Talk about putting words in someone's mouth.
Oh no. Please don't. It's unclear enough already.
God bless
Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
What are the other possibilities that you seem to think are so apparent then Dave? What, it was a teamwork thing?
This is past the point of getting nowhere. Look at your own words Dave. Is His knock the reason you are saved, or is it you answering that is the reason? Or are there a bunch of other possibilities to this statement too?
HELLO!! Don't you even see that when you say it was "your anything" that saved you you're giving the credit to what you did? Look at this statement, "It was not my own work that saved me, IT WAS MY RECOGNITION of my need." I don't think it could be any clearer who you credit with the reason you are saved. If you don't see this, just ask yourself one little question. "Was I saved before I did anything?" If you say no, then it's quite obvious where you place the credit for you receiving your salvation.
Please,...clear it up then. Apart from your actions (which, by the way, includes you recognizing something and then acting on it), what exactly did JESUS ALONE secure for you? Are you saved because He died and rose again, or, are you saved because you "accepted" His sacrifice? It should become very clear who is responsible for YOUR salvation.
Yes, that is why He made those He saves. That is not why He made those He did not select to save:
Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
What purpose did He raise Pharaoh up? So that He could show the world that the most powerful man in the world was but an insignificant flea that was subject to the Will of the Creator, DESPITE PHARAOH'S OWN WILL, which you claim is "free."
Romans 9:21
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Does it seem like God has the same plan in mind for all of His creation? One for honor, and ONE FOR DISHONOR. What exactly do you think that dishonor is, Dave? It's eternal condemnation.
Romans 9:22-24
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,<SUP> </SUP>and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,<SUP> </SUP>even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Hmmm...so we have vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and vessels of mercy prepared for glory. Hmmm...seems pretty clear that He makes some for the purpose of destruction and dishonor.
Seriously? You don't mean "seriously," do you? Oh my gosh! Seriously. Sorry if you don't like to hear an opposing viewpoint. Would it be better if I qualified my statements with "coughSarcasmcough?" Would that make them sound more acceptable? I got an idea...
Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
It's not a word game Dave. Is believing something you do? Are the things you do a work?
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Are you sure of that?
"By your endurance you will gain your souls." Lk21:19
"Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9
"Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do, you will save yourself and those who hear you." 1Tim4:16
"For if by the transgression of the one death reigned, much more those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Rom5:17
"As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him." Col2:6
"But as many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name". Jn1:12
Are you SURE that salvation isn't receiving/believing-in/abiding-in Jesus?
Voluntarily???
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Originally posted by Ben johnson
Are you SURE that salvation isn't receiving/believing-in/abiding-in Jesus?
Voluntarily???
I never said it wasn't voluntary Ben. What I said was that fallen man will NEVER voluntarily make the choice to be obedient to God because it's not in his nature to even consider God's righteousness. Those who "voluntarily" receive/believe/abide in Jesus are the ones that God has given a new nature to.
God bless
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"And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light lest his deeds be exposed." Jn3:19-20
"You do not understand, because you cannot hear My word---because you are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do the desires of your father." Jn8:43-44
If Jesus "helkuo-draws-drags" ALL MEN to Himself (Jn12:32), then each receives enough measure of faith to overcome total depravity.
Each man chooses God, or chooses evil. There is no excuse.
Please show me a verse, any verse, that says "God gives them a new nature prior to them turning to Him"?
We are "born again", by faith---faith comes from hearing the Word of God. We receive Him, our old selves die---because of our faith. Faith comes first, then regeneration, sanctification, righteousness.
Everything is on belief.
Some love God, some love evil. Their choice.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Did you mean to support my statement? Because these most definitely do.
Hmmm...seems we've discussed this exact same passage a million times. "Dragging" someone to Christ is saving them. Besides, if we've been given enough measure of faith to overcome our depravity but it does not be save actually save us then what is it that is the reason you specifically "chose" Christ and other don't? Did you receive more grace than someone else? Was there something special about you that made you more receptive to the message of the Gospel? Are you smarter than all the other people that didn't "choose" Christ? It seems very apparent to me that if God gave each and every person the same "measure of faith" that enabled him to "overcome his depravity" then it wasn't what God did that made a difference as to your salvitic state, right? God's actions alone did not save you specifically, right? You still had to "choose" to accept Him, right? So, the difference is something you did, right?
I agree.
Well, what is the nature of man before God changes something? Is it inclined to God? Is it fallen? Is it totally unrighteous? Are you honestly contending that man, in his fallen, depraved, totally unrighteous state makes the righteous decision to be a disciple of Christ? Or do you not see the Fall as debilitating to the spirituality of man? Or maybe you don't consider the choice of discipleship to Christ a righteous one. I don't know that this will make any difference but here goes:
This whole passage depicts what I'm saying:
Ephesians 2:1-10
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,<SUP> </SUP>in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,<SUP> </SUP>among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love WITH WHICH HE LOVED US,<SUP> </SUP>even when we were dead in trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),<SUP> </SUP>and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,<SUP> </SUP>that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.<SUP> </SUP>For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,<SUP> </SUP>not of works, lest anyone should boast.<SUP> </SUP>For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
As a side note, when Paul says "we" in this passage, he's talking about Christians, those who are saved. For instance, he says we "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." The "others" are those who still conduct themselves in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling desires of the flesh and of the mind. Now, we are no longer "children of wrath" but rather "children of God." So, here we have God doing something TO US when we were dead to Him spiritually. Paul even states that those whom God made alive are those "which God prepared beforehand."
So I'll ask you again as I have in the past. All we need to do to save everyone is make sure they hear the Word of God? Because, if you notice, it doesn't say, "faith can come from hearing the Word of God." It says, "faith comes from hearing the word of God." Who is it that you think enables us to "hear (and accept)" the Word of God?
So you are attributing a person's salvation to the choice they make? Strange...all this time I thought it was the loving work of God on an unrighteous creation.
God bless
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
By the way, in one single post you acknowledge that scripture says not all people can "hear" the Word of God:
"You do not understand, because you cannot hear My word---because you are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." Jn8:43-44
and then you attribute the faith that you have to this:
"faith comes from hearing the Word of God"
If that be the case, then all of fallen man, who are of their father the devil, could not "hear" the Word of God.
God bless
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This is opinion, not supported by Scripture. Jesus said, "I will draw all men". All men are not saved. Ergo, dragging is not saving.
You can lead a human to (living) water, but you can't make him drink.
Absolutely right---what I DID, was RECEIVE CHRIST. By my own faith. Am I smarter? No---only, more broken. They have pride, and love of sin. I am convicted and broken---I have nothing, I realize I need Him. I am willing to give up sin for Him. More than willing...
No I do not.
...PAUL does... (Romans 10) Not to be a disciple, but to surrender to Christ, who does the work of salvation IN that man...
It is all belief...
You say He made us alive before we believe (that's WHY we believe)---I say He made us alive, BECAUSE we believed...
(I take the high roooaaaadddd, you take the low rroooaaaddd...)
Belief. Some don't believe, because they love their sinfulness and their evil father. See Jn8:43-44...
So you are attributing a person's salvation to the choice they make?
Yup. Rom5:17. Jn1:12. Jn10:9. Choice, belief, receiving Him & the gift of grace.
Strange...all this time I thought it was the loving work of God on an unrighteous creation.
Just that---but it is all conditioned on our belief, our willing receipt of Him.
Oh they heard what He siad all right---Jesus was saying that they were not hearing with understanding. You seek to portray sinful man as incapable of turning to God without Gods forceful intervention---and that concept is not presented in Scripture. Some people just love sin more than God---a "pride thing". Others, like myself, and I believe you also, were broken and humbled, recognizing our mutual destinies---the very fires of Hell. Broken and hopeless, we turned to Him---reached out our hands, and He lifted us from our mire. He cannot lift those who will not give Him their hands.
There is no pride in Heaven. We boast not in ourselves, but in the Lord---for apart from Him we are nothing. IN HIM we are everything. 2Cor10:17, Jn15:5
(Do we ever move towards agreement? Do we find issues on which we DO agree? Or do we stay the same?)
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Have at it guys, I am out. I will continue this only over the phone, in real time. PM me your number if you want me to call.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Or maybe, just maybe, He didn't mean all men.
You can lead a human to (living) water, but you can't make him drink.
Right. Only God can do that.
So, it wasn't God that saved you when you were dead in your trespasses, right? The reason you specifically are saved is because you chose to receive Christ, right? Tell me again, I seem to have forgotten, who it is you credit with your salvation.
So, first you say the difference is what you do, then you say the difference is the work of Christ. Please explain, if all men are fallen, all receive the same "measure of faith," all have the same work of Christ done in them then what is this difference in individuals that make them more receptive to Christ?
Well, I'd say it's all His grace...and...I believe that the Fall made man depraved. I think you've told me before but please refresh my memory. What do you think specifically happened to man's nature due to the Fall?
That verse speaks of the nature of fallen man, not some fallen men. All fallen men are dead to God because all fallen men are of their father, the devil.
This has NOTHING to do with the choices of man. This is about the work of Christ.
Good verse. I've never contradicted this. But my contention is that the reason they "receive and believe" is because they are given a new nature that is receptive to Him. You see, you conveniently leave out the next verse which says they are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD."
Also a good verse. However, once again, the reason they enter is the new nature God has given them. You see Ben, He doesn't say He is the door for everyone. He says, "I am the door of the sheep." He says, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." Doesn't Christ, who is omniscient know all things? So maybe, by "know" He means He is intimately familiar, He loves and seeks out, those His Father has ordained to salvation before the foundations of the world. Then, in vv. 26,27 He says, "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." So, it seems there's a difference between who are the "sheep" and who aren't BEFORE they hear His voice.
How can you not see the glaring contradiction. I say I believed salvation to be the loving work of God on an unrighteous creation and you say, "Yup. Just that." Then you make it quite clear that you don't think it's "just that." You then attribute it to your belief and willingness.
I know. I've said that same thing time and time again. I've told you over and over in thread after thread that when the Bible speaks of "hearing" it's not talking about with your physical ears. You always say, "Yes it is talking about with the ears." I say, "No, it's not. It's talking about understanding. Look at Job. When He refers to hearing He makes a specific distinction than what the normal phrase would mean, ""I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You" (Job 42:5).
Okay bro. Then it's quite plain that I'm wasting my time talking to you about this. You say stuff like, "just show it to me in scripture." I do. You deny everything I say. You tell me my entire set of beliefs isn't even "presented in Scripture." Well. Gee. I just hope one day I can be so enlightened as you. I tell you what Ben, I'll stop wasting both of our times, okay? Don't worry about responding to this. I'm sure you'll just post a thousand verses that you believe support your position and this will just continue to get further and further from accomplishing anything.
Later,
God bless
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Always fun to debate with you, Don.
With the HEART man believes, resulting in righteousness. It is not written the other way around, it does not say: "God INSTALLS righteousness resulting in belief".
"WHILE you were dead in sin, God made you alive in Him". THROUGH BELIEF. God made us alive, because we believed. We were dead, we believed, it resulted in righteousness, it resulted in us-being-made-alive. Do you think Paul was wrong?
"And this is the will of God, that whosoever beholds Jesus, and believes in HIm, may have eternal life." Jn6:40.
Being "BORN ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF MAN", is "looking on Jesus and believing in Him". Where is the contradiction in what I said?
OK, have it your way. You are right, John8 says, "you hear, but have no understanding". But then Jesus tells them why, doesn't He? "Because you are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do his evil desires". Just like in Jn3 where it says, "but men loved the darkness instead of the light". Where is the divine machination? It's not there. Mankind can choose to love God, or it can choose to love sin. Am I wrong?
Is belief a consequence of His "saving-us", or is our being-saved the consequence of our belief?
I do think these discussions are beneficial, not a waste-of-time. Remember, there are far more than me-&-you here---there are dozens, if not more, of readers...
Did you see my post on another thread? "For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rm10:10 Do you see the context? Man is unrighteous/dead-in-sin, right up until the point he believes. It is BELIEF that causes righteousness, BELIEF that receives Christ and sanctification (washing, purifying) by the Spirit.
With the HEART man believes, resulting in righteousness. It is not written the other way around, it does not say: "God INSTALLS righteousness resulting in belief".
"WHILE you were dead in sin, God made you alive in Him". THROUGH BELIEF. God made us alive, because we believed. We were dead, we believed, it resulted in righteousness, it resulted in us-being-made-alive. Do you think Paul was wrong?
Don---read the words! "Those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness"! This has nothing to do with choices-of-man?
No I don't "conveniently leave it out"---we just disagree on what the will of God IS. You understand this verse to mean, "Who were born by God's forceful interference". I understand it to mean, "Who were born by God's predestination of Jesus, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES will be saved".
"And this is the will of God, that whosoever beholds Jesus, and believes in HIm, may have eternal life." Jn6:40.
Being "BORN ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF MAN", is "looking on Jesus and believing in Him". Where is the contradiction in what I said?
OK, have it your way. You are right, John8 says, "you hear, but have no understanding". But then Jesus tells them why, doesn't He? "Because you are of your father the devil, and you WANT to do his evil desires". Just like in Jn3 where it says, "but men loved the darkness instead of the light". Where is the divine machination? It's not there. Mankind can choose to love God, or it can choose to love sin. Am I wrong?
I'm sorry, Don. I didn't think I was doing this. If I appeared so, then please accept my apology. Rather than saying things again, please just answer the questions I've placed in this post.
Is belief a consequence of His "saving-us", or is our being-saved the consequence of our belief?
I do think these discussions are beneficial, not a waste-of-time. Remember, there are far more than me-&-you here---there are dozens, if not more, of readers...
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Originally posted by Ben johnson
I do think these discussions are beneficial, not a waste-of-time. Remember, there are far more than me-&-you here---there are dozens, if not more, of readers...
I think they're beneficial too Ben. I'm just being a selfish moron. Please forgive me.
I do need to take a break from this and make sure to respond with the right motive.
Have a good weekend. See you online!
God bless,
Don
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And I'm gonna go kill some "hot-dogs" and eat them. God bless you too!
NOTE TO STAFF---no actual animals were harmed in the filming of this post. Stunt doubles and computer animations were used wherever possible...
NOTE TO STAFF---no actual animals were harmed in the filming of this post. Stunt doubles and computer animations were used wherever possible...
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Should I be insulted?
How did I offend you? How can I make it up to you?
(Not the "singing and dancing" thing, I don't do either exceptionally well...)
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- Jun 6, 2002
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Time is an abstract concept that is not addressed by scripture other than the idea of "eternity". Do you mean is He outside looking in? No. He created the universe, and chose cloth himself with it. He is not outside of it.
Only insomuch as He has chosen to be so.
No. He died for not only for the believers sins, but for all.
Yes
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The best book I have ever read addressing the subject on Christ dying for unbelievers sins is The Great Divorce by CS Lewis. Lewis also addresses this issue in Mere Christianity briefly. Lewis is the author that made me an inclusivist. I don't think he would have described himself as such, but I think an honest reading of his writings brings out inherent inclusivism (I also think an honest reading of the Bible brings this out as well). The Great Divorce is a book about Heaven and Hell and why certain people end up in either place. Absolutely my favorite book by Lewis, and a recommended read for everyone.
Note: if you haven't read Mere Christianity, I highly recommend you read that first.
Note: if you haven't read Mere Christianity, I highly recommend you read that first.
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