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DaveKerwin

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Reformationist,

I do not hold tight to that doctrine. I have thought this over many times, and come to a few conclusions. This is a difficult issue because of the fact that we are inside of time, and God is not bound by this like we are.

Does mankind have free will ? Yes.

Does God know all, and have a will for us ? Yes.

How do these merge? Well... kinda like oil and water. It is my belief that we cannot know for sure what the case is. I can see why people who hold different beliefs on this, because of what the scripture says. The Bible tells us that God is not willing that any should perish. What do you do with that? Did Jesus die for all he made or only some of whom he made? I believe he died for everyone.

God knows who will be in heaven, and who will be in hell. I am saved, so I will be there. But what about my brother Patrick? Did God elect him? If he did, I can stop trying to witness to him, because he will be in heaven anyway. You know what, forget evangelism, thats for people who don't trust God's election process. CoughSarcasmCough.

I believe that we are free, free to choose whatever we want in this life. I also believe that God can step in and stop us if he so chooses. God knows already who will be with him, and who will not. But he has not made some people strictly for the purpose of eternal torment (he wills all to be saved). It is a strange situation for us humans to be in, because time has us bound. Did God predestine me to be saved? Yes, as he did everyone. But I made the choice to believe. Others will not make that choice, and therefore will not be in heaven.

TO GOD, there is election, because he has foreknowledge, but to us, there is free will, because we are here now, inside of time, choosing how we live.
 
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Ben johnson

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thepalmtree and Ben, please refrain from changing the topic of this thread. If you wish to address the OSAS vs. OSNAS topic please start another thread.
The question of the thread, seems to be "are we elect?" Part of the response to that, is to demonstrate the Scriptures that speak of real apostasy.

If we can fall-from-salvation, then we cannot be "elect". It is theologically and intellectually sound.

"Election" is, by definition, "osas". "Non-election", can be "osas" or it can be "osnas". How then to not engage in "osas" or "osnas" debates? If you restrict the discussion to remove all possibility of disagreement, how then can we discuss?

;)
 
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thepalmtree

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Thanks ben. I didn't know their was already a thread about losing your salvation in soteriology. I was just browsing that one. I've never really heard about the OSAS and losing your salvation before. I 've gone to non-denom and baptist churches never heard anything like this. I tried to witness to some people today, but i wonder if i have the right to tell someone someting i might not be able to live up to or something i could lose in the furture. Thank-you for taking the time to post. I've already gone over those verses but i think in light of the new angle i'll go over them again.

 

I'm sorry i posted before i saw the note about continuing the discussion else-where. My apologies. I don't know all the forum rules yet.
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
The question of the thread, seems to be "are we elect?" Part of the response to that, is to demonstrate the Scriptures that speak of real apostasy.

No.  Losing or retaining one's salvation does not necessarily have to enter a discussion on the validity of predestined election.  I'm talking about the basis for receiving salvation, Ben, not keeping it. 

If we can fall-from-salvation, then we cannot be "elect". It is theologically and intellectually sound.

If it's too hard to answer within the confines of a clear cut question then just don't Ben. 

"Election" is, by definition, "osas". "Non-election", can be "osas" or it can be "osnas". How then to not engage in "osas" or "osnas" debates? If you restrict the discussion to remove all possibility of disagreement, how then can we discuss?

Two things.  First, I agree that the two topics are very closely tied to each other.  Second, I have not restricted this discussion in any way that "removes the possibility of disagreement."  What I've tried to do is avoid this thread from going so far off topic that the original questions are lost in the process, which is basically what happens when you and I discuss these things.  I'm trying to avoid that.  It's nothing personal.  I have just never seen a semblance of order in these types of discussions and I'd like to try and manage that.  You and I are both notorious for bringing up so many "off the topic" topics that that request was as much for myself as for you.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Does mankind have free will ? Yes.

By this do you mean mankind has the ability to make decisions?  Or do you believe that mankind has the ability to make any decision? 

The Bible tells us that God is not willing that any should perish. What do you do with that?

I believe that if He sovereignly Wills none to perish none will.  The fact that some do makes it, in my opinion, obvious that He's not talking about everyone.  I believe He is referring to none of His elect perishing.  Also, I have never implied that God delighted in the death of the wicked.

Did Jesus die for all he made or only some of whom he made? I believe he died for everyone.

Don't you see that when you say this you are saying that His death was not effective in the lives of some that He desired to be saved?  Consider the magnitude of that.  The death of God was not powerful enough to ensure that everyone would be saved.  You are saying He died for people and, though the purpose of His death was to save all, the very purpose of His death was not accomplished.

God knows who will be in heaven, and who will be in hell. I am saved, so I will be there. But what about my brother Patrick? Did God elect him? If he did, I can stop trying to witness to him, because he will be in heaven anyway.

But that's not what the doctrine of election states.  Evangelism is definitely a tool God uses to bring people to a knowledge of Himself.  However, it is not the power, clarity, or passion of the evangelist that makes the difference.  It is God who makes that person receptive.  If He has not done so, you could say anything and it won't make a difference.

You know what, forget evangelism, thats for people who don't trust God's election process. CoughSarcasmCough.

Come on man.  There's no need to respond like this. :(  

I believe that we are free, free to choose whatever we want in this life.

You mean within limits, right?  I mean, you can't choose to jump to the moon, right?

I also believe that God can step in and stop us if he so chooses.

Please explain how your will can be free if God can just "step in and stop you."  Also, why is it that you can acknowledge that He can stop you, but you have difficulty acknowleging that He can start you doing something that is against your nature, like loving Him, or having faith in Him?

God knows already who will be with him, and who will not. But he has not made some people strictly for the purpose of eternal torment (he wills all to be saved).

Really?

Romans 9:22-23
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,<SUP> </SUP>and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory

It is a strange situation for us humans to be in, because time has us bound. Did God predestine me to be saved? Yes, as he did everyone. But I made the choice to believe. Others will not make that choice, and therefore will not be in heaven.

So, since God does the same thing for everyone, you're saying you're saved&nbsp;because you chose to be saved, right?&nbsp;

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by thepalmtree
I'm sorry i posted before i saw the note about continuing the discussion else-where. My apologies. I don't know all the forum rules yet.

It's not a forum rule, just something I requested.&nbsp; Anyway, iIt's no big deal.&nbsp; I didn't mean to make it sound like it was.&nbsp; I, too, enjoy discussing doctrine with Ben, at least most of the time ;).&nbsp; I just want to try and stay on topic, for once.

God bless
 
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sola fide

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I'm an adherant to the doctrine of predestination-election, and the main thing that boggles my mind is how non-adherants of this doctrine answer for the repetative use of the term "elect" and "before the foundation of the world" in the new testament. How can such phrases be ignored that are so clearly used in scripture?
All Christians acknowledge that in some manner they were "called". So does this phrase only apply to those who have first accepted Christ by their own will? I would say no. I would say that the elect of God are "called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ" (Jude 1).
I wonder if there is truly one example in scripture of one person who served God who was not first called by God. I don't believe there is.
To be called doesn't mean that we just decide to come...it means that one has been beckoned and then comes. And with God, who is strong enough to resist that beckoning? No one.
Those He calls come to Him...those He passes over perish...it's as simple as that.
Another question that I have for non-adherants to this doctrine is how they answer to Romans 9 (Jacob and Esau). For the most part I've seen that they shy away from it. So, how do you answer to it?
 
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Ben johnson

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I believe that if He sovereignly Wills none to perish none will.
How many times is "boulema" used in the NT? Where?
How many times is "thelema" used in the NT? Where?
Don't you see that when you say this you are saying that His death was not effective in the lives of some that He desired to be saved? Consider the magnitude of that. The death of God was not powerful enough to ensure that everyone would be saved. You are saying He died for people and, though the purpose of His death was to save all, the very purpose of His death was not accomplished.
This has the flavor of opinion. Critical to sound doctrine and pure theology, is the concept of "exegesis"---the procedure of uncovering what the Scripture really says. Exegesis is objective, eisegesis is subjective. To say, "God was not powerful enough to ensure that everyone would be saved", denies the possibility that God could have sovereignly chosen to not-force-salvation---thus it becomes each person's choice. Can that possibility be exposed in Scripture?
Don't you see that when you say this you are saying that His death was not effective in the lives of some that He desired to be saved? Consider the magnitude of that. The death of God was not powerful enough to ensure that everyone would be saved. You are saying He died for people and, though the purpose of His death was to save all, the very purpose of His death was not accomplished.
You ignore verses such as John3:19: "...the light has come into the world, and men oved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil." And John8:43-44, "You do not understand My words because you cannot hear Me; you are of your father the devil and you want to do the desires of your father." You see, free will and choice has been present since creation. Deut30:15 presents it, clearly. "I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life." Ezekiel 11 has a passage oft used in support of "PREDESTINED-ELECTION": "I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people and I shall be their God." THERE---see? PREDESTINATION!!!

...well, until we read the next verse: "But as for those whose hearts go after their detestable things and abominations, I shall bring their conduct down upon their heads" declares the Lord God.

Those who turn to God, He changes their stone-hearts to flesh. But those who DESIRE abominations and detestable things over God, HE CONDEMNS! No force, complete free will.

Does God desire ALL TO BE SAVED? Yes. Undeniable in 1Tim2:4. Will ALL be saved? No. Then is His sacrifice ineffective for some? YES! Why? Because they love sin more than Him. Exegesis---Scripture's words, not mine.
boggles my mind is how non-adherants of this doctrine answer for the repetative use of the term "elect" and "before the foundation of the world" in the new testament.
That's because of what else it says. "You did not choose Me but I chose you", Jn15:16 "I chose you before the foundation of the world", Eph1:4. And yet, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rm10:9-10 "For faith (unto salvation) comes from HEARING the Word of God" Rom10:17. The question that will answer this whole concept, is: Does God CALL anyone who does NOT end up saved?

Scripturally, every last person who ever lives is called! So, YES God calls those-who-WILL-not-be-saved. What do you possibly think Jesus meant with the parable in Matt22:2-14? Verse 14 plainly says, "For MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN."

He chose us before the foundation of the world. Actually, that's not what it says! It REALLY says, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." Please consider this line of theology for a moment---suppose it is JESUS who is predestined from before the foundation of the world, and salvation is IN CHRIST---is it possible, just maybe, that "His choosing us, is equivalent to our RECIEVING HIM?" In 2Thess2:13 it says, "For God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit, and through faith in the truth". Faith in the truth? Faith-unto-salvation-in-the-truth. Where does faith-unto-salvation come from?

Faith-unto-salvation comes from hearing.

Faith-unto-salvation is NOT a unilateral gift bestowed by God!

Consider the entire passage of John15---in verse 16, "you did not choose Me but I chose you"---but in verse 6, "if anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, dries up, and ...is cast into the fire." Verse 4: "Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you".

2Timothy2:11-13: "For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him He also will deny us; if we are faithless He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself." Verse after verse after verse presents salvation as voluntary---and it CONTINUES to be voluntary WHILE WE LIVE. Salvation, is "abiding in Christ" (1Jn4:15-16). "Anyone who does NOT abide ...is cast into the fire." "If we endure, we shall reign with Him; if we deny Him and DON'T endure, He will deny us and we will NOT reign with Him. If we are faithless we CANNOT reign with Him, for how can the faithless be saved? They cannot. Yet HE remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

"He Himself has said, 'I will NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU!' " Heb13:5

...but there is NOTHING in Scripture that says "we cannot leave and forsake Him", and many, many verses that warn us against doing just that.

"How much severer do you think he will deserve, who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS saved, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Therefore, DO NOT throw away your confidence (which is JESUS---see verse 19!). For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise." Heb10 (several verses)

Romans 9 is hypothetical---verse22, "WHAT IF"! Besides, the NAS Bible (and Niv) translates "atimia", as "common". Thus, the "time' " (honor) and the "atimia" (dishonor, or common), are both saved. I believe this understanding is the intent of the writer---even though the "atimia" seems to indicate an unsaved vessel in a similar analogy in 2Tim2:20-21.

In Romans 9, it is generally accepted that "JACOB" and "ESAU", are archetypes---that is, each represents a PEOPLE. Nevertheless, the INDIVIDUAL Jacob was loved because of his obedience, while Esau was condemned because of his disobedience.

"It depends not on the man who will or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." This harmonizes perfectly with the idea of "salvation is received, by free will"; our salvation depens NOT on us NOR on our works, but we are saved when we receive Christ---and He does the work of salvation IN US! Salvation is Christ, all of Christ, and none of us. Yet He works not our salvation, until we believe. No contradiction whatsoever.

"For He has mercy on whom He desires, and hardens whom He desires." Does this remove OUR culpability in receiving mercy or hardening? Please read Exodus 9:33-34: Pharaoh sinned and hardened HIS OWN heart. Yet, in the VERY NEXT VERSE, 10:1, "GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart!" Was Pharaoh culpable? YES! Did God harden his heart unilaterally? NO! You can consider this as "under the Semitic view" (that all things are attributed to God, whether He does them or not), or that God HONORED Pharaoh's self-hardened-heart!

Salvation is by belief. It is God's will (thelema-desire) that all men be saved. But only those who BELIEVE are saved, only THOSE become the "chosen from the beginning", through their own faith. Those who love unrighteousness, and love detestible things and abominations, and want to do the desires of their chosen father the devil, these will perish---because they have chosen it, not because they are not-chosen-by-God...

(Why do I feel like I have just written a college paper???)

;)
 
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cougan

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Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest
heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast,
and every transgression and disobedience received a just
reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation,
which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was
confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he
stands take heed lest he fall.

Hebrews 12:15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of
the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up
cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have
received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a
sacrifice for sins,

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ,
you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from
grace.
 
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eldermike

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GAL 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

I know you don't want to discuss OSAS, so I will not mention it.

The whole idea of election begins with the fall from grace, original sin, Adams sin. It was taught this way before the reformation, even in the time of the split of the Baptist and Catholics. This is not a reformation idea in the least. Placing the burden of my sin as the seperation between God and man is equal to throwing away the OT. The yoke of slavery is the idea that your work is salvation,,,,it's that simple.
You can post 100's of scripture about works but they are all about slavery. They are a description of the circumsized, the slaves, the lost.

We were born dead, what had we done before we were born that condemed us? What did you do before your mother and father ever met each other that caused you to be born "dead"? Not one single thing.
You can do not one thing to gain salvation any more than you could have been born alive.

You must go back to the idea that the fall of man from grace is something you can't fix.

Blessings
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by eldermike
GAL 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

I know you don't want to discuss OSAS, so I will not mention it.

The whole idea of election begins with the fall from grace, original sin, Adams sin. It was taught this way before the reformation, even in the time of the split of the Baptist and Catholics. This is not a reformation idea in the least. Placing the burden of my sin as the seperation between God and man is equal to throwing away the OT. The yoke of slavery is the idea that your work is salvation,,,,it's that simple.
You can post 100's of scripture about works but they are all about slavery. They are a description of the circumsized, the slaves, the lost.

We were born dead, what had we done before we were born that condemed us? What did you do before your mother and father ever met each other that caused you to be born "dead"? Not one single thing.
You can do not one thing to gain salvation any more than you could have been born alive.

You must go back to the idea that the fall of man from grace is something you can't fix.

Blessings

I absolutely agree Mike.&nbsp; Very nice post.

God bless
 
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Ben johnson

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GAL 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Working backwards in Galatians, from this verse:

4:21 "Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? For Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. ...so then, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free."

4:9 "Now that you have known God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to be enslaved all over again?"

3:18 "For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a romise."

3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit are you now perfected by flesh? Abraham believed God; therefore be sure it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The righteous shall live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law... ...in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Sirit through faith.

2:18 "For if I rebuild what I once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me, and the life I live in the flesh now, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Do you see the foundation of the whole book? They began in the Spirit, the seek to finish by law. In 5:3, "I testify to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have FALLEN FROM GRACE." Do you suppose, just maybe, that Paul, really MEANT, "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace"?

You will respond, "They never really LEFT Law, they were never really SAVED." Read on:

"You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole dough."

"You were running well". "You began in the Spirit, in faith, you seek to finsish by law." "You knew God, rather He knew you; yet you turn back again to law."

"You are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace."

Which part of this supports "predestined-election"? No part of it.

Sound doctrine and pure theology must consider the Bible as a whole---we cannot just lift a verse hear or there, we must read it in context---the whole context.

I think, when he wrote, "fallen from grace, severed from Christ", I think he really meant "fallen and severed". Contextually, there is no other meaning possible. "You BEGAN well..."

In the entire Scriptures, Paul never supported "OSAS", let alone "predestined-election"...

...but Paul very much wrote about "perseverance", "abiding in Christ", "remaining in salvation"---a choice...

:)
 
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eldermike

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No, you didn't understand me, it's my fault, let me try antother way.

Paul is pleading with ones that have heard the truth, started to get the idea and then went right back to the slavery of the law. You are making the assumption, just like they did, that because they are keeping the law that they are saved. Some may have been saved and were now under the burden of the law for no reason. Others were never saved because they perfered the slavery of the law over the message Paul preached to them
 
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eldermike

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You cannot choose to "abide" God is not a ride we catch, or a cab we hail!
God chooses us, we decide how to respond to God, not how to live in God. God lives through our sacrificed lives once we respond to His call on our hearts. Your writing reveals that you are trying to earn His grace. There is no earned grace, that should be called wages. If you work for it, you are owed it. Grace is free.
 
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Ben johnson

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You are making the assumption, just like they did, that because they are keeping the law that they are saved.
No, I understand from the whole book of Galatians that they truly were saved, but someone has led them back to followihng Law---thus, "you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace". Those who are never saved in the first place, cannot be severed from Christ, cannot be fallen from grace. First they must be IN Christ, they must be IN grace...
You cannot choose to "abide" God is not a ride we catch, or a cab we hail!
Salvation is abiding in Christ (Jn15:1-11,1 Jn4:15-16). Salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus (1Jn1:3-6). Salvation is receiving Christ, and walking in Him (Jn1:12,Col2:6).

Walking in Christ, is abiding in Him. Keeping ourselves in His love (Jd21). Walking in the Spirit rather than the flesh (Rm8)...
God chooses us, we decide how to respond to God, not how to live in God.
There is only one way to live in God, it total surrender to His Lordship (Master!).

Show me one verse that says "God chooses us to salvation, WE don't receive HIM"?
 
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