Rosary Medals

Caedmon · Oct 9, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To Joe:

Veronica wiped the Face of Jesus when He fell on the way to Calvary. Tradition has it that the imprint of His Face was left on the cloth she used.

However, it has been theorized that this cloth was actually the folded up Shroud of Turin. A cloth bearing the Face of Jesus was exhibited in Constantinople for years before it mysteriously vanished. Then later, the Shroud appeared in Turin. (or wherever it was that the Shroud first showed up!)

Supposedly, Veronica's name came from the Latin phrase, "Vera Icon," or "True Image."

Kewl, huh?

Where is she in the Bible? I can't find her. Did she really exist? If she didn't, then why is she in the Stations?

Oh, well I thought about this for a second. Like Job, she may not have existed. But then, Job had his own entire story. Why would they put a fictional person in the middle of a historical account?

(oh, and Joe? Please put whatever worries you have about the judgment of your Reformed brothers and sisters in regards to your relationship with Mary and your devotion to the Rosary. You don't pray for their evaluation. Remember what Jesus said about praying in public and secluding yourself when you pray. Your Rosary and your devotions are nobody's business but YOURS and GOD'S. Okay?)

I know VOW... I can't help but feel guilty sometimes though. As long as I'm not thinking about what I'm doing, I'm ok. I mean, I do think about what I'm doing, but I don't. Does that make sense? Anyways, thanks for talking to me.

Oh, and BTW... I got another Rosary at Inquiry this week! It's a little different from my other. It has spherical wood beads, a sleak metal crucifix, and a full-relief Mary medal(as in, the metal is carved out around her image). It's pretty cool. I think I like my other one better though, hehe
(thank you VOW... love you lots, hehe :hug:

)

Caedmon · Oct 9, 2002

Originally posted by Wolseley
You and me both. I remember one time meditating on the Scourging at the Pillar, and how the whip in question was a Roman flagellum, consisting of nine strips of leather into which were tied, at intervals, sharp pieces of metal, bone, glass, or stone, and which would literally take the hide right off a man's back, leaving it a slashed, bloody mess, and how Jesus' Blood must have been flying from His back with every blow, dropping into the dust at His feet in big dime-sized drops.....

I sat there with the tears running down my face in a river and having to stop every so often to mop my nose.......

And in walks my sister.

Talk about feeling like a fool. I had to explain to her what the deal was, because she looked at me like I had more than a few loose screws.

And then later I thought about it, and I decided she could think whatever she blooming well pleased. You can cry over a lot sillier things.

Oh Wols...

That happened to me the other day on campus. I was hurting so bad inside.(school has been extremely difficult for me this semester) So I went to the Chapel garden to pray. I remembered the Rosary and decided to pray it. In short, it was the Sorrowful Mysteries, and as I went through the pain that Christ felt, I began to cry. Those people walking by must have thought I was crazy, tears running down my face with my hands over my eyes, holding a "silly" string of beads. But it helped me so much. It's like He took all my hurts and put them on Himself. It was very good for me. He took my sorrow away, and heaped them on His own back, even if just for that brief time. I know the pain, and the peace, that you know.

Also, I've heard sermons about Jesus scourging as well. One of my pastors said that medical experts have said that if a man had been whipped 39 times with a Roman "cat-of-nine-tails", bare bone and internal organs would have begun to become visible. I can not imagine! How did He carry that beam at all?! Love... Love is what carried that beam... and then we pick up and carry it with Him. What more can I say?

VOW · Oct 9, 2002

To Joe:

I think the story of Veronica appeared to explain the Mandylion, the cloth with the image of Jesus on it.

A fascinating bit of history: the authors of the book I have, The Shroud of Turin, have identified certain characteristics in the Face on the Shroud. (and I'm STILL LOOKING for my copy!) They then studied some of the famous paintings of Christ down through history, and identified the same characteristics in the paintings as found on the Shroud.

To coin a word, "Fascinating!"

Tell us about your second class! Please! Please!

Peace,
~VOW

Caedmon · Oct 9, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
I think the story of Veronica appeared to explain the Mandylion, the cloth with the image of Jesus on it.

A fascinating bit of history: the authors of the book I have, The Shroud of Turin, have identified certain characteristics in the Face on the Shroud. (and I'm STILL LOOKING for my copy!) They then studied some of the famous paintings of Christ down through history, and identified the same characteristics in the paintings as found on the Shroud.

To coin a word, "Fascinating!"

That's interesting. But why would they still include it, if it's not historically accurate? I mean, if the Mandylion is actually the Shroud of Turin, and it has a full body impression on it, then why is it still taught that Veronica wiped Christ's face on a cloth? It would just make sense to revamp the Stations.

Tell us about your second class! Please! Please!

Hehe, ok, I'll scoot my boot' to the RCIA thread then.

isshinwhat · Oct 9, 2002

Thank you Wols and Joe for sharing that.

isshinwhat · Oct 9, 2002

"[R]epresenting us", of course, is a different interpretation than what I have been taught and believe. I don't view that event as significantly as a Catholic would. But I guess I could see her as my "mother", since Christians are all in the same family. My problem begins when I try to refer to her as "queen"; I find that to be very difficult to say.

Hey, Joe!

This passage from Origen really helped me understand the spiritual motherhood of Mary from a Catholic perspective. I pray that you get something out of it, as well.

God Bless,

Neal

Origen (185-254)

The Commentary on the Gospel of John
Book I

6. ...none of these [the other Gospel writers] plainly declared His Godhead, as John does when he makes Him say, "I am the light of the world," "I am the way and the truth and the life," "I am the resurrection, "I am the door," "I am the good shepherd;" and in the Apocalypse, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." We may therefore make bold to say that the Gospels are the first fruits of all the Scriptures, but that of the Gospels that of John is the first fruits. No one can apprehend the meaning of it except he have lain on Jesus' breast and received from Jesus Mary to be his mother also. Such a one must he become who is to be another John, and to have shown to him, like John, by Jesus Himself Jesus as He is. For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, "Woman, behold thy son," and not "Behold you have this son also," then He virtually said to her, "Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear." Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, "Behold thy son Christ."

The Squalid Wanderer · Oct 9, 2002

Dear isshinwhat,

Thank you very much for posting that. That is some very good background theology for our practiced piety.

Wolseley · Oct 10, 2002

Where is she in the Bible? I can't find her. Did she really exist? If she didn't, then why is she in the Stations?

A lot of things aren't mentioned in the Bible, Joe.

But just because the Bible does not mention them doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Oh, well I thought about this for a second. Like Job, she may not have existed. But then, Job had his own entire story. Why would they put a fictional person in the middle of a historical account?

So if Veronica had her own entire story, that would lend more credence to her existance?

The fact is, nobody can "prove" from the historical evidence the existance of Veronica. But we have several old traditions and legends, and we have some ancient relics that came from somewhere. Most legends have their origin in some kernel of fact; and besides, whether Veronica existed or not, it's not a salvational issue.

The story of a woman coming out of the crowd to mercifully wipe the sweat and blood from Jesus' face isn't very far-fetched; we know that many women travelled around with Jesus, supporting Him and His disciples out of their own means (Luke 8:1-3). There is absolutely no reason to disagree with the proposition that Veronica may have been one of these women. She is more or less in the same position, for example, as the story that the name of the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus was Dismas, or that Joseph was an older widower with grown children when he married Mary. Can these be "proven" historically? No. Is there any reason to doubt that the events described could have happened? Again, no.

And in any event, being as she is in the Stations of the Cross, Veronica belongs to a devotion; it's not like we're talking conciliar dogma promulgated by the First Council of Nicaea here.

Caedmon · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by Wolseley
A lot of things aren't mentioned in the Bible, Joe. But just because the Bible does not mention them doesn't mean they didn't exist.

So if Veronica had her own entire story, that would lend more credence to her existance?

The fact is, nobody can "prove" from the historical evidence the existance of Veronica. But we have several old traditions and legends, and we have some ancient relics that came from somewhere. Most legends have their origin in some kernel of fact; and besides, whether Veronica existed or not, it's not a salvational issue.

The story of a woman coming out of the crowd to mercifully wipe the sweat and blood from Jesus' face isn't very far-fetched; we know that many women travelled around with Jesus, supporting Him and His disciples out of their own means (Luke 8:1-3). There is absolutely no reason to disagree with the proposition that Veronica may have been one of these women. She is more or less in the same position, for example, as the story that the name of the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus was Dismas, or that Joseph was an older widower with grown children when he married Mary. Can these be "proven" historically? No. Is there any reason to doubt that the events described could have happened? Again, no.

And in any event, being as she is in the Stations of the Cross, Veronica belongs to a devotion; it's not like we're talking conciliar dogma promulgated by the First Council of Nicaea here.

You raise some interesting points Wols. Ok, so could I legitimately think of "Veronica" as a mythological element, like say, I would look at the Genesis creation story as mythological?

Speaking on Mary(and please don't knock me out for this!), could I take the Assumption and Coronation under the same type of interpretation? I mean, could I understand Mary's Assumption and Coronation as mythological?
*runs and balls up in a far corner, shielding his face and vital organs*

VOW · Oct 10, 2002

/me stands over Joe's grave, weeping softly...

"He had such potential!"

Joe, let's try this. We won't call the Assumption and the Coronation of Mary "Legends" or "Myths." We will call them "Mysteries." Because we don't UNDERSTAND them. Give the Holy Spirit TIME, Joe! He's working extra hard on you right now, and you simply cannot HOLD everything at once, okay?

Peace,
~VOW

Caedmon · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
VOW stands over Joe's grave, weeping softly...

"He had such potential!"

Joe, let's try this. We won't call the Assumption and the Coronation of Mary "Legends" or "Myths." We will call them "Mysteries." Because we don't UNDERSTAND them. Give the Holy Spirit TIME, Joe! He's working extra hard on you right now, and you simply cannot HOLD everything at once, okay?

I'm trying, I'M TRRRYYYY-IIIIINNNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

*string ensemble passionately belts out Barber's "Adagio for Strings" in background*

VOW · Oct 10, 2002

I'm crazy about you, Joe.

~VOW

Wolseley · Oct 10, 2002

Speaking on Mary(and please don't knock me out for this!), could I take the Assumption and Coronation under the same type of interpretation? I mean, could I understand Mary's Assumption and Coronation as mythological?

You can; a Catholic can't. Mary's title of Queen of Heaven is standard Catholic doctrine, and the Assumption is a defined dogma, meaning a Catholic is required to believe it.

*runs and balls up in a far corner, shielding his face and vital organs*

(drill sergeant voice) "Keep in mind, men, that although these shrapnel-proof lower trunk garments are uncomfortable, they can, in fact, prevent injury to various organs located in the lower trunk area, and keep you from becoming a casualty."

A casualty in this case means a eunuch.

Rosary Medals

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