Jesus had brothers?

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Oblio said:
Scotch sipped through a Straw

So it's not that difficult.. all that you would need to do is post scriptures (truth) which teach that the Orthodox church is the church.

How difficult could that possibly be.. ?

Or, continue to sip your scotch, and wonder why nobody accepts that as truth..

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Markea said:
So what I hear you saying Ob, is that you're not willing to simply present the truth of scripture (the very truth which you claim that the church supports) in order to support your claim that the Orthodox church is 'the church'...

And imo, that speaks volumes.

is it possible that you are requesting a "name (orthodox) " citation from the NT ?

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Hentenza said:
To answer your question, it is not important to dispute this topic. This is a debate forum though, so people will debate everything from this topic to what color underwear the pope wears.

guess I'm a little "idealistic" :sorry:

- just assumed that people would engage in debate because the issue was in some way meaningful to them ...

whoa ! you have the inside scoop on the color of his skivvies

I'm impressed ! ^_^

Rhamiel · Sep 9, 2007

um names like Catholic and Orthodox did not come up until there was a reason to use them, at first it was just called "the church"

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Thekla said:
is it possible that you are requesting a "name (orthodox) " citation from the NT ?

Not at all, all that I am asking is that he (or anyone) use the truth of scripture (because the church supports the truth) to show that the Orthodox church (as it exists today) is 'the church'..

If it's true, then how difficult could that be..?

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Markea said:
Not at all, all that I am asking is that he (or anyone) use the truth of scripture (because the church supports the truth) to show that the Orthodox church (as it exists today) is 'the church'..

If it's true, then how difficult could that be..?

I was asking just this when I requested a point by point response to my previous post (57) ...

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Thekla said:
I was asking just this when I requested a point by point response to my previous post (57) ...

No Thekla, I'm asking you (or any person who claims that the Orthodox church is the church) to simply show this through the truth of scripture.

If it's true, then it should not be that difficult for you. Although if you can't, then that's fine too... I'm simply asking if you can.

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Markea said:
No Thekla, I'm asking you (or any person who claims that the Orthodox church is the church) to simply show this through the truth of scripture.

If it's true, then it should not be that difficult for you. Although if you can't, then that's fine too... I'm simply asking if you can.

in order to do that, you would need to have a sense of Orthodox Christianity (its belief and practice). Given that you seem to have a rather skewed notion of what the EOC is, this may be impossible.

It would also be incredibly time consuming ... maybe you could provide some passages that are "key" to an understanding of Church, and I could provide examples to correlate ?

In this way, I think the discussion would be more fruitful (instead of me taking "shots in the dark").

Would you be willing to try ?

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Thekla said:
in order to do that, you would need to have a sense of Orthodox Christianity (its belief and practice). Given that you seem to have a rather skewed notion of what the EOC is, this may be impossible.

My sense of Orthodox beliefs is primarily derived from what I hear you folks talking about from time to time.. just as your understanding of my beliefs might be derived from what you hear me saying..

Both of these aside.. because OUR beliefs do not define truth, they should be based upon the truth, if in fact we are supporters of the truth as the church of God is said to be, in accordance with the truth..

IOW.. You should be able to show me the truth of your claim that the Orthodox church is the church, simply because it is based upon the truth.. Same with me..

It would also be incredibly time consuming ... maybe you could provide some passages that are "key" to an understanding of Church, and I could provide examples to correlate ?

I don't think that it would be that time consuming.. and of course we would use the truth to show what the church actually is.. that's the point..

In this way, I think the discussion would be more fruitful (instead of me taking "shots in the dark").

Would you be willing to try ?

Sure.. that's what I'm asking..

Oblio · Sep 9, 2007

Markea said:
So what I hear you saying Ob, is that you're not willing to simply present the truth of scripture (the very truth which you claim that the church supports) in order to support your claim that the Orthodox church is 'the church'...

And imo, that speaks volumes.

No, what you have presented is the classic 'No True Scotsman' logical fallacy. It is pointless to respond to a logical fallacy.

For an example of WHAT that fallacy is, please see my signature.

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Okay, Markea

would you mind providing one passage at a time ? (I'm here on and off - as needs at home allow).

Would EO folks help, too ?

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Oblio said:
No, what you have presented is the classic 'No True Scotsman' logical fallacy. It is pointless to respond to a logical fallacy.

For an example of WHAT that fallacy is, please see my signature.

All that I'm asking is that you use the truth (the church supports the truth) of scripture to show that the Orthodox church is the church.. how difficult could that be if it's a TRUE statement..?

Hentenza · Sep 9, 2007

Thekla said:
Thekla said:

guess I'm a little "idealistic" - just assumed that people would engage in debate because the issue was in some way meaningful to them ...

Click to expand...

When I first came to this website, I was idealistic. I used to believe that the issues were discussed to gain understanding and knowledge. Unfortunately, I have come to realize that the issues are not what are being debated but the individual's knowledge which lead me to unfairly judge others. I throw tidbits out every once in a while now but I believe that we should be trying to find our common ground instead of further the discussions that separate us. At the end of the day, Christ is what is and should be our focus. Sorry for the rant.

whoa ! you have the inside scoop on the color of his skivvies

I'm impressed !

Click to expand...

Does that mean that you didn't know that the color of his skivvies matched his hat.

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Thekla said:
Okay, Markea

would you mind providing one passage at a time ? (I'm here on and off - as needs at home allow).

Would EO folks help, too ?

Perhaps we can start with the Lord talking about building His church..

[bible]Matthew 16:13-18[/bible]

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

So the Lord is talking about building His church.. He is inquiring as to what men think of Him.. and then ultimately the bottom line..

Who do YOU say that I am... ?

He then says that Peter's confession of Him being the Christ came from something greater than himself.. ie, it was revealed to Peter by God..

Could this be how the Lord is going to build His church..

For the sake of not going down the popish road.. let's not turn it into a Peter being the rock type of commentary.. if that's ok with everyone.. because I believe that there are some foundational principles being laid down here by the Lord..

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Markea said:
So the Lord is talking about building His church.. He is inquiring as to what men think of Him.. and then ultimately the bottom line..

Who do YOU say that I am... ?

He then says that Peter's confession of Him being the Christ came from something greater than himself.. ie, it was revealed to Peter by God..

Could this be how the Lord is going to build His church..

For the sake of not going down the popish road.. let's not turn it into a Peter being the rock type of commentary.. if that's ok with everyone.. because I believe that there are some foundational principles being laid down here by the Lord..

no problem on leaving Peter out of the discussion in this regard ^_^

yes, the "ekklesia" is "built" on the revealing of Christ as God among us

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Thekla said:
no problem on leaving Peter out of the discussion in this regard

yes, the "ekklesia" is "built" on the revealing of Christ as God among us

OK, so this is a start..

Now with repsect to this feeble beginning.. I would say that it certainly is not restricted to Orthodoxy at this point.. because God can reveal the truth of His Son being the Christ to any person.. would you agree with that.. ?

I do, because we're taught in John that He is that true Light which lighteth every man which comes into the world..

SO I would suggest that there is no restriction there..

Do you agree with that.. ?

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Markea said:
OK, so this is a start..

Now with repsect to this feeble beginning.. I would say that it certainly is not restricted to Orthodoxy at this point.. because God can reveal the truth of His Son being the Christ to any person.. would you agree with that.. ?

I do, because we're taught in John that He is that true Light which lighteth every man which comes into the world..

SO I would suggest that there is no restriction there..

Do you agree with that.. ?

absolutely !

Thekla · Sep 9, 2007

Hentenza said:
When I first came to this website, I was idealistic. I used to believe that the issues were discussed to gain understanding and knowledge. Unfortunately, I have come to realize that the issues are not what are being debated but the individual's knowledge which lead me to unfairly judge others. I throw tidbits out every once in a while now but I believe that we should be trying to find our common ground instead of further the discussions that separate us. At the end of the day, Christ is what is and should be our focus. Sorry for the rant.

Does that mean that you didn't know that the color of his skivvies matched his hat.

Click to expand...

AHA ! there, learn something new every day

I agree -- but I'll take it further; in the EO view, everything (to the Christian) refers back to Christ, and everything we do and know (theology) not only refers back to but is known from Christ. So, in EO, there is only soteriology (no mariology, for ex). This is why to attack some teachings can be met with such an impassioned response -- because it means an "attack on Christ". Though I don't know if
a. that makes sense -or-
b. if it can be explained in less than several years

Markea · Sep 9, 2007

Thekla said:
absolutely !

Ok. So you believe that God is building His church.. and that He is building it upon a person confessing Him as the Christ, the Son of the living God.. and that He can reveal that to whoever He desires.. and that this is in no way restricted to Orthodoxy..

So let's ask some logical questions..

Do we know every member of the body whom God has revealed His Son to..?

Can we set boundaries to His church conisting of a single denomination.. ie, such as the Orthodox church, or the Catholic church..?

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