Is all the Bible scripture?

2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Very convenient, Ed. Dodging the issue by changing the focus doesn't help. You made the claim that the KJV is "the perfectly, inspired, inerrant, preserved Word." So it is natural to ask you what was that "perfectly, inspired, inerrant, preserved Word" in 1610, one year prior to the KJV. If there was no perfectly preserved Word of God prior to the KJV, then pity Jesus because he didn't refer to them.


While it is beside the point of the discussion, I will answer you question. As for me, my faith is in Jesus Christ as revealed/testified to in the Scriptures. And as much as any translation (German, Polish, Urdu, KJV, NKJV, NAS, GW, NET, etc.) reflects the autographs, that is the revealed Word of God, which reveals Jesus Christ and God's saving plan.

Where is the Word of God?

-According to Modern Scholars -

1. It is not confined to the covers of one Book.

2. It is not available to the public apart from modern scholarship.

3. It is not available in its infallible form.

4. It is certainly not an AV 1611, nor even close to it.

5. It takes a library of at least 100 books to look for it.


6. It includes church traditions and "superstitions

7. It is only a "message."

8. It is Jesus Christ, and Him ONLY.

9. It is something separate and distinct from "words" in a Book.

10. It can almost be found in an ASV, RSV, NIV, NKJV, etc.

11. No one man can obtain it and those who get more of it than anybody else
are Hebrew and Greek philologists.

This is from the Basic English vs. Same meaning

2Pe 1:16 For when we gave you news of the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, our teaching was not based on stories put together by art, but we were eye-witnesses of his glory.
2Pe 1:17 For God the Father gave him honour and glory, when such a voice came to him out of the great glory, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.

2Pe 1:18 And this voice came from heaven even to our ears, when we were with him on the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 And so the words of the prophets are made more certain; and it is well for you to give attention to them as to a light shining in a dark place, till the dawn comes and the morning star is seen in your hearts;
2Pe 1:20 Being conscious in the first place that no man by himself may give a special sense to the words of the prophets.

2Pe 1:21 For these words did not ever come through the impulse of men: but the prophets had them from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by Hervey
Hi Ed:

God did not use men to preserve His Word. God is the one who preserves His own Word, and does not need men to do that for him !

God's Word is perfect, but our translations are not perfect !

The Greek manuscripts are not perfect , from which your translations came from !

God did not preserve His Word in "any" translation !

His Word is preserved in 'our' hearts ! If your heart goes up against the will of God, that is planted in your heart, then your walking in death, when your heart goes up against its own heart !

God put his commandments in our hearts.

We read to study and get a greater understanding, but that understanding in already in our hearts ! The written Word confirms that, which is already in our hearts !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

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Yes there are some greek manuscripts that are corrupt. Two of the major ones are the Codex Vaticanus & Codex Sinaiticaus. These are know to be the oldest manuscripts but they were manuscripts corrupted either by Orgien or Marconi or whoever corrupted them. This is where all the modern translations come in at.

For more info see:BIBLE TEXT CORRUPTION

Greek vs. AV 1611

Where the Greed reads one way and the A.V. 1611 reads the other, rest assured that God will judge you at the Judgment on what you know. Since you don't know the Greek (and those who know it, alter it to suit themselves), you had better go by the A.V. 1611 text.

1. The Greek texts are NOT the originals.

2. YOU are not a Greek, and if you were, you couldn't find "the originals."

3. God showed Larkin, Scofield, and Bullinger more from an English text
than he did W & H, A.T. Robertson, and nestle from a Greek text.

4. If you HAD "an accurate translation" of the Greek,
it wouldn't make any kind of reading in English,
due to differences in idiom, sentence construction, and grammar.

5. The "modern" versions, in the "common language,"
are NOT from the originals, or even from the God honored Greek text.

6. If anyone led you to believe any differently,
HE IS AFTER YOUR POCKETBOOK OR YOUR BILL-FOLD.

Did some of my posts get deleted?

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What is the Word of God?

Did God ever speak?
If He ever did, where is the record of what He spoke?
Who has it?
Can YOU get it?

If you cannot get a copy, what have you been called to study? to read? to preach? Paul said, "Preach the Word" (II Tim 4:2).

What is the Word?
Is it a message, or a book? Is it both? Which book?
When Paul said, "preach the Word," what was "the Word?"

Did he mean...
1. ...Preach the ethical/moral content of the world's great religions?
2. ...Preach Socialism as a Christian form of world government?
3. ...Preach reconciliation of institutions to the "Kingdom of God"?
4. ...Preach the translation "he" thinks is the "best available"?
5. ...Preach the Sermon on the Mount, omitting the verses on Hell-fire?

This is the issue that the Christian must settle before he enters any ministry which resembles the Christian Ministry. One can take the term "Christian Ministry" and by applying the new scientific definition of "meaning" he can make the words mean "social therapy", "ideological involvement," "sensitivity dynamics," or "total commitment to the environmental thrust," etc.
If you have no absolute and final authority to preach - don't preach.

If you cannot get a copy, what have you been called to study? to read? to preach? Paul said, "Preach the Word" (II Tim 4:2).

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And I'm sure he pulled out his "trusty" KJV translation to get the right word!

Because someone does not use the KJV does not mean the person is not preaching Christ and him crucified.

Have you heard one sermon I've preached? Have you determined that you know what and how I teach?

Suppose I said that I preach/teach from the Greek Bible. Would you call me unfit for ministry? What if that was the modern Greek Bible? Does that change your answer? Suppose I preach from the bishop's Bible or the Geneva Bible? They differ from the KJV. Would you call me unfit for ministry? Suppose I told you I preach/teach from the Urdu translation. Would you call me unfit for ministry?

Good thing God hasn't placed you in the deciding role of who is a Christian, who is faithful in the proclamation of the Word, and dictating to everyone what is the Word.

It might be interesting to see what the translators of the KJV had to say about their own translation. In case you want it, I can post it. They showed humility and reverence in their translation, they recognized that it was a translation.

Mr Ed, Seems that you are a "loner"...I am also to a certain degree, I am mostly an introvert. You come on to me a couple different ways, one is I think you are a believer but evrything has to be proven to you (which is probably not bad)... Certainly God spoke, how about at the burning bush, how about to Moses on the Mt., how about to Adam in the garden, how about to all present when Jesus was baptized... and when Jesus spoke that also was God speaking... Where ya been my man? You also come on to me as being just a bit egotistical, a smarter than you type...but that is okay if that is you, but is it to God? I speak this unoffensably... Troop
1Cor.1 Verses 26 to 28

[26] For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
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This arguement is old.

KJonly's are largly seclusionists. They gain identity in the fact of their dismissal of other version possabilities. They cannot be diswaded in their belief because they view confrontation as persecution for their knowing the truth. They will argue that you do not study your bible, then they will post long copies of other peoples works. They will tell you you cannot have the truth unless you believe as they do, yet they will argue among their own as the the proper hermenutic.

I will not ask for I know the outcome. I say all this based on lengthy, pointless discussions with other KJonly's, Ed, but you have given me no reason to believe otherwise.

What has happened to the OP?

I just have a Final Authority I can hold in my hand and read.
Whats so bad about that?

What and where is YOUR Final Authority?
ed

As do the rest of us, but without the added burden hyper-piety.

For some reason, it is not widely known that the KJV translators themselves wrote, in their original preface, that there is nothing wrong with using other translations of the Bible - which begs the question of the KJVO advocates - if the people who were 'inspired to create the perfect version' believed that, why should you deny it?
They wrote (original emphases and spelling):

"There be many rare names of certaine birds, beastes and precious stones, &c. concerning which the Hebrewes themselues are so diuided among themselues for iudgement, that they may seeme to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, the[I couldn't decipher the end of this word] because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Hierome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margine do well to admonish the Reader to seeke further, and not to conclude or dogmatize vpon this or that peremtorily? For as it is a fault of incredulitie, to doubt of those things that are euident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (euen in the iudgement of the iudicious) questionable, can be no lesse then presumption. Therfore as S Augustine saith, that varietie of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures."

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Source: Facsimilie KJV 1611 edition, Thomas Nelson Publishers. Online scan of this: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/1967/trpref10.htm

These same translators also affirmed that every translation is the word of God, in answer to those who objected to their publishing a new translation(!) (Their spellings):

"Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and auow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee haue seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God."

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Same source. Online scan: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/1967/trpref7.htm

Originally posted by Thunderchild

However, the same author in the same passage says that Jesus claimed she was not dead - that she was asleep (in a coma).

The author claimed that she was dead, and claimed that Jesus said she wasn't - the author directly contradicted Jesus's own words - and that in the self same passage.

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Nowhere does the text imply she was in a coma. Jesus said that she "sleeps" which was a euphemism for death. If you read John 11:11-15 in the story of Lazarus' death you will see Jesus use the same wording:

These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

Jesus is the resurection and the life, so in His eyes Jairus' daughter was only asleep. That is the context. There is no contradiction here.

God Bless

Is it "heresy" to believe, that the King James Bible is perfect?

It is amusing yet appalling that a King James Bible believer, who BELIEVES the Bible to be inerrant, is called a "heretic" by people who claim to believe that the Bible is inerrant.
"Heresy", according to Webster, is "an opinion or doctrine contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs."
It is "generally accepted" that the Bible is the perfect word of God. I have often told people, "I don't believe that the King James Bible is the inerrant word of God. I believe that the BIBLE is the inerrant word of God. But if you ask me to give you a copy of that Bible, I'll hand you a King James Bible."
Critics of the King James Bible believe that the "Bible" is the inerrant word of God. BUT, ask them to hand you a copy of that inerrant Bible that they "believe" in, and you will find that it doesn't exist anywhere on this earth!
We King James Bible believers simply believe what they CLAIM to believe. And for that we are called "heretics."
Actually the "heretic" label is designed more to scare young adherents away from the inerrant Bible, than to honestly define the name callers feelings. It is hoped by the Bible critic that the fear of being labeled a "heretic" will discourage zealous Christians from REALLY believing what Bible critics claim to believe.
In fact, if it is generally accepted by fundamentalists that "the Bible is the inerrant word of God" and the Bible critic can find a mistake in every Bible that you put in his hand, then... who really is the heretic?

>>"heretic" label is designed more to scare young adherents away from the inerrant Bible

I still think the problem is that the English language is not as good of a language as the Greek and even the Hebrew languages are. Ask anyone who knows multiple languages, and they will say that english by far is the most difficult and complex.

English speaking people in general seem to be getting away from God and the natural result is that the English language is going to get away from God. The Bible warns us about a time when there will be a falling way, or a great apostasy. Thanks, JohnR7

John, you know that in the days of Noah the world was of one language.........English is fast becoming the one world language again.........as in the days of Noah..........Interesting.
ed





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The men on the translation committee of the King James Bible were, without dispute, the most learned men of their day and vastly qualified for the job which they undertook. They were overall both academically qualified by their cumulative knowledge and spiritually qualified by their exemplary lives.
Among their company were men who, academically, took a month's vacation and used the time to learn and master an entirely foreign language; wrote a Persian dictionary; invented a specialized mathematical ruler, one was an architect; mastered oriental languages; publicly debated in Greek; tutored Queen Elizabeth in Greek and mathematics; and of one it was said, "Hebrew he had at his fingers end". Yet head knowledge can be a curse if not tempered by a fervent, pious heart.
In this, the spiritual realm, they were light years ahead of many today who flaunt their education yet fail in any attempt at a practical, personal witness.
This company was blessed with men known for their zeal and tact in debating and converting Romanists to Christ. They spent hours in private and family devotions. Many did the work of evangelism and even that of missionary representatives of later Queen Elizabeth. One, lived to the age of one hundred and three years. In the closing years of his life, after preaching for two full hours he said to his congregation, "I will no longer trespass on your patience" to which the entire congregation cried out with one consent, "For God's sake go on". He then continued his exposition of the Word of God at length.
Yet humanity was a universal trait shared among them as is so amply revealed in the Epistle Dedicatory. "So that if, on the one side, we shall be traduced by Popish Persons at home or abroad, who therefore will malign us, because we are poor instruments to make God's holy Truth to be yet more and more known unto the people, whom they desire still to keep in ignorance and darkness; or if, on the other side, we shall be maligned by self conceited Brethren, who run their own ways, and give liking unto nothing, but what is framed by themselves, and hammered on their anvil;" Yet, in spite of their outstanding character, they never claimed divine inspiration. (A claim which, if they had made, would over joy their detractors as evidence of a prideful spirit.) They never even claimed perfection for their finished work.
Does this mean that, because they did not claim God's hand in translating the Scripture that He could not be or was not in control of their commission? For the answer we must look to the Bible, our final authority in all matters of faith and practice.
When John the Baptist was accosted by the Levites in John chapter one and asked if he was Elijah (John 1:21) he answered that he was not Elijah. Yet in Matthew chapters 11:7-14 and 17:10-13 Jesus Christ plainly stated that John was Elijah.
Did John the Baptist lie? No. Did Jesus Christ lie? Of course not. The answer is very simply that John was Elijah but he didn't know it! Thus we see from our Bible example that a man can have God working through him and not know it. Likewise, God could easily have divinely directed the King James translators without their active knowledge.