A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

holdon · Aug 25, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Why should I have to? Can you prove from sripture that the US belongs to its current inhabitants? Can you prove from scripture that Canada belongs to Canadians? Can you prove from sripture that England belongs to the English? Can you prove that Mexico belongs to the Mexicans from scripture?

No?

Then to require I prove that Palestine belongs to the Palestinains from the bible is nothing more than the logical fallacy of the Double Standard.

Since there are international conventions and treaties to which Israel is a party, no, it is not simply a matter of "to the victor goes the spoils." That is an archaic concept in today's international community.

.

Other nations no, but Israel is the ONLY nation who has a God given mandate to a certain territory. This supersedes all "international conventions" for one who takes God seriously.

Biblewriter · Aug 25, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Who has denied the words of the prophets are the words of God?

How is rejecting the legitimacy of someone's pet interpretation equal to denying the words of God?

It's not.

Ummm . . rejecting the legitimacy of dispenationalist eschatology does not equate to rejecting God's word.

Simply illogical argumentation based on an assumption, unproven, that dispensationalist teaching is actually based on what the word of God says, rather than some personal, fallible, and errorprone interpretaton of it.

.

I was answering your implication that dispensationalists "deify the prophets."

If you did not mean that their words were not the word of God. What did you mean/

Biblewriter · Aug 25, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
These are the menacing words of Hal Lindsey, the father of Apocalyptic Christian Zionism, author of over 20 books with sales exceeding 50 million copies, whose weekly radio program Week in Review is aired by several Christian radio stations:
"God said to Abraham, the father of all Jews: "I'll bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you." This promise was extended to protect all the descendants (sic) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I believe that if the US ever turns its back on Israel, we will no longer exist as a nation. DonÕt take this lightly, for throughout history the rise and fall of empires can be directly related to how they treated the Jews."
So, here we have Lindsay elevaitng the Jewish race, ie the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for special treatment.

Where are his cries regarding how God will judge a nation that looks the other way regarding the sufferings of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli Regime?

See, it is racist by nature to hold the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Jews, up for special treatement, which if given will result in special blessing, an which, if not given, will result in special cursing, but to not hold the Palestinian people, or any other people, up to the same level.

One only has to look at his words to see how he emphasizes the Jewish race above all others.

That meets the defintion of racism.

the promise he uses wasn't given to a race . . it was given to an individual, Abraham. Abraham is dead. This promise doesn't apply to the nation of Israel in any way. And so his misapplication of it to elevate a race for special treatement is very problematic and misuses God's word to teach a racist ideoelogy.

You may not like that being pointed oiut, but liking it and truth have no relation.

You are referring to when this promise was first made to Abraham.

Genesis 12:1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy fathers house, unto a land that I will show thee: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

But it was repeated to Jacob, who later became Israel.

Genesis 27:6And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son. 27And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed: 28Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine: 29Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mothers sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

Then it was repeated again in regard to the entire nation of Israel.

Numbers 24:5How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel! 6As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the rivers side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters. 7He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted. 8God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. 9He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

So the promise, although first given to Abraham, was later expressly extended to the entire nation of Israel. As it was never retracted, it remains in force today. Hal Lindsey was only citing express statements of scripture.

Notrash · Aug 27, 2007

Biblewriter said:
You are referring to when this promise was first made to Abraham. Genesis 12:1
<cliping few items>
Then it was repeated again in regard to the entire nation of Israel.

Numbers 24:5How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel! 6As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the river’s side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters. 7He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted. 8God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. 9He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

So the promise, although first given to Abraham, was later expressly extended to the entire nation of Israel. As it was never retracted, it remains in force today. Hal Lindsey was only citing express statements of scripture.

I must say, I did not realize this verse in Numbers. It seems from reading verse 8 that this passage is written after a time of Jacob perhaps during the time in the wilderness and the time of Joshua. And yet the present tense use of the word ARE in vs 5 indicates that the blessing has been continued to Israel. One could argue that it was only to those who were keeping the tabernacle, but at that time after the falling away of those who had crossed the red sea and had worshiped the Golden Calf, most all the nation did follow the tabernacle. I am glad for your wording that it remains in force for today.... for this is what I am finding also.

There is an interesting connection here with Joshua and Jesus as they both 'possessd the land' and fulfilled the promise.

A couple thoughts and questions. And I'm sure you've dealt with these before.

We've learned from Romans 11 (and other places) the idea that Gentile believers are grafted into the root of the olive tree and that only the Remnant was saved even way back in the time of Elijah, not the genetic seed, but the spiritual seed....(even in Elijah's time). Thus could even this promise be referring to the "Spiritual Seed", "Joshua/Jesus"? Paul discusses this promise and the singular Spiritual Seed in depth as we'll see.

Now in Ephesians 2 we read.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, (THESE 'BOTH' or the TWO below ARE ISRAEL AND GENTILE) and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross,thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

John Michael Talbot had a beautiful song from the 1980 period title 'no longer strangers' that was based on this passage.

(Perhaps a few mistakes here concerning the 'commonwealth' idea.)
This is re-emphasizing the that Gentile believers are ingrafted and adopted into the 'commonwealth of ISRAEL and are now as one body, the body of Christ who is the head. Furthermore, He Jesus has PUT TO DEATH the enmity that seperated them. Believers in Christ are no longer strangers or foreigners to the blessings of the Commonwealth or Israel or it's COVENANTS OF PROMISE nor do those promises and blessings apply to a genetic Israel and it does not seem as though they Did before.

Then in Ephesians chapter 3 Paul begins with a mentioning his calling to bring (the gospel) particularly to the Gentiles.

He made known to me the mystery....... 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.

There is some very powerful verses in the middle of this chapter where Paul say that the mystery and purpose before the world began is the gathering of peoples of all nations under Christ, again connecting the protoevangelion of Adams time with the Gospel, all nations of the earth will be blessed through thee" that was given to Abraham.

Ephesians 3: and to make all see what is the 9fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

He has a doxology that resembles the brief doxology of Romans 11. But at the end of that Doxology...

to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever.

It almost seems as though having people from all nations in a fellowship under a Head of God/Christ is the purpose of everything thus far... and for ever and ever...the "everlasting Gospel of the protoevangelion".

Before going on to practiacal applications and instruction, Paul reaffirms the one-ness of the Body in Chapter 4. verse 4.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

Click to expand...

Notrash · Aug 27, 2007

And now we come to Galatians 3.

And here we begin to find reinforcement for the idea of the Gentiles being ingrafted into the promises that were given to "SPIRTUAL ISRAEL". These are Pauls words, not mine.

5. Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

15Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," </I>who is Christ. 17And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, (Christ's coming confirmed the covenant Dan 9:27) that it should make the promise of no effect. 18For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

21Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (this is the same idea as Romans 11:32) 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We also have the story of the bondwoman and freewoman in Chapter 4 and have this. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise

On an interesting sidenote, Paul is saying that the scripture says to "cast out the bondwoman" and is actually seems to be advocating casting the persecuters out of Jerusalem or casting out the "temporal world" from our lives. Rom 12:1,2. So also are we to 'cast out' todays Sanhedren out of making govornment rules and oppressing free society.? This is what they did in the 1200's and some of the reasons the Sanhedren have been expelled from various countries from time to time.

Then, after some discussion of circumcision, at the end of the chapter we have a sort of confirmation without any doctrinal disertation.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Now just 'walking according to this rule' doesn't make one part of the "Israel of God', but Paul has been firm about telling his Jewish and Gentile converts not to submit themselves back under the yoke of the laws or rituals as circumcison, for they are already 'the Israel of God'.

From the context of the Chapter and also especially the message of the Ephesians sections, it is all but perfectly clear Paul is refering to the body of Christ as "The Israel of God" and inheiritors of the promises. The Gentiles are called out of the world, just as Jews are called out of the Law's of religion into one body that still maintains the heritage and promises of God mentioned in Romans 9: 2-5.
These verses collaborate Roman 9-11 and especially Romans 9:6 which says, Not 'all' Israel" is 'of ' Israel. Now, since the Israel of God and the heirs of the promises are the Body of Christ, (not the religious church that we see, but those elect and called).. where is it shown that these promises that you mentioned are to be fulfilled in something other than the Body of Christ? This is an especially pertinent question since so often Jesus and the Disciples and Paul affirmed the fulfillment of prophecies and eternal promises in the life of Christ and the foundations of the church.

Should we (the church) actually be struggling for the physical 'promised land' for the Christian Church.....or should we be focusing on 'and praying for a casting out the bondwoman' whereever we live and looking forward to the 'new Jerusalem".

Again, none of these passages.....nor Dan 9, nor Rom 11, nor 2 Tim 2:15 nor Thessalonians, establish proof or discussion for a RE-seperation of the Body of Christ into a once again Law obeying "Jewish Israel" and a 'raptured church'. In fact these verses and letters from Paul seem to conclude that it always was the 'Spiritual seed' and the 'Spiritual Israel' that the promises where given to.

Are there some who think the descendants of Hagar will Inheirit a law abiding millenial kingdom??? Paul says: Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law. The son of the freewoman shall inheirit the promises. (Spiritually, who we are)

If you (or any of the others) care to clarify how the Israel of God is not now the True one body of Christ, I'd be interested to know.

We have seen from Romans 9 that the Idolatrous unsaved Israel was among those reserved for destruction similar to the way Pharoah armies that perished in the Red Sea. So also I believe that EZekiel 12:21ff was refering to the last generations of the prophets at that time and to the ending of the 'rebellious house' that Danial was told about. And there are several verses in the Gospels that refer to things happening so that the prophets might be fulfilled, and that allude to all the prophets speaking of the this time of Christ. (I'll try to round those verses up)

I noticed that you didn't offer a response to EZ 12:21 and following passage and also didn't offer a response to my reply to the discussion of Isaiah 61 which Jesus quoted from. And that reply being that the event of the 'acceptable year of our Lord, is the same even as 'the day of vengence of our God' as according to the way it was written in Hebrew Poetry. This 'vengence' would eventually be against all who would not recieve the propitiatory death of Christ or his teaching.....and also in the near time frame, when the wrath of God was poured out on Jerusalem for killing the prophets and Christ and for an ending of the 'rebellious house'. And that the futher context of the prophecy could be attributed directly to rebuilding the cities of the desolation and the double honors bestowed upon the disciples.

Main point of discussion

Now the main point in starting this response was to expose what Paul says about the promise that you quoted in Numbers. "Blessed is he that Blesses you and cursed is he that curseth you." This promise is part of the exact same promise that God made to Abraham and that Paul actually refers to as 'the Gospel' and that promise being ....in thee (his spiritual seed as Paul clarifies) will all the nations of the earth be blessed. Now if Paul also says that these promises are meant to the seed being Christ,(not seeds) and that Israel and Gentile is now Joined together under one body of Christ of ALL the NATIONS of the earth, Then Does not the blessing and cursing promise that you quoted in Numbers NOW apply ONLY to those true believers in Christ..... the 'Sons of God"..... the Israel of God, the Body of Christ.??? Didn't Paul say that God would repay those who had injured Him more than one time in his letters. And also ..... Jesus said almost as a curse.... Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Paul also said to the High Priest ..... the lord smite thee... if I recall correctly... I'm sure there are other blessing and cursing parallels and examples in the Gospels and Epistles. The Woe's to the Pharisee's and Saducees come immediately to mind.

Thus there is examples, ample evidence through precedence and confirmation in Scripture that even the blessing/cursing promise refered to seed of 'faith', fulfilled in Christ himself and then to the Disciples and the unified Body of Christ, the Sons of God, the Israel of God. And this being so, it stands as further proof against the teachings of especially the new scofield bible in which these promises were newly reassigned to the fabricated state of Israel. This again is where the church is weakened by assigning these things falsly, and closing their eyes. Who shall we believe? Paul or Scofield??

Now saying this about the Millstone, there are often times when people will innocently say something that turns out untrue or misleading while a person is attempting to build his/her house on Christ and the decisions of His/Her Life on rocks of truthfull information. There are other times when people have malicious selfish or reckless intent, envy, strife, or revenge in their hearts and mind. I would think God would hold far more accountable those who would intentionally and/or malitiously offer false information rather than those who may have been misled into providing false information. God can be the judge on all things, and he is full of grace and mercy to all.

holdon · Aug 27, 2007

Notrash said:
And now we come to Galatians 3.

And here we begin to find reinforcement for the idea of the Gentiles being ingrafted into the promises that were given to "SPIRTUAL ISRAEL". These are Pauls words, not mine.

We also have the story of the bondwoman and freewoman in Chapter 4 and have this. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise

On an interesting sidenote, Paul is saying that the scripture says to "cast out the bondwoman" and is actually seems to be advocating casting the persecuters out of Jerusalem or casting out the "temporal world" from our lives. Rom 12:1,2. So also are we to 'cast out' todays Sanhedren out of making govornment rules and oppressing free society.? This is what they did in the 1200's and some of the reasons the Sanhedren have been expelled from various countries from time to time.

Then, after some discussion of circumcision, at the end of the chapter we have a sort of confirmation without any doctrinal disertation.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Now just 'walking according to this rule' doesn't make one part of the "Israel of God', but Paul has been firm about telling his Jewish converts and Gentile converts to not submit themselves back under the yoke of the laws, for they are already 'the Israel of God'.

From the context of the Chapter and also especially the message of the Ephesians sections, it is all but perfectly clear Paul is refering to the body of Christ as "The Israel of God" and inheiritors of the promises. The Gentiles are called out of the world, just as Jews are called out of the Law's of religion into one body that still maintains the heritage and promises of God mentioned in Romans 9: 2-5.
These verses collaborate Roman 9-11 and especially Romans 9:6 which says, Not 'all' Israel" is 'of ' Israel. Now, since the Israel of God is the Body of Christ, (not the religious church that we see, but those elect and called).. where is it shown that these promises that you mentioned are to be fulfilled in something other than the Body of Christ? This is an especially pertinent question since so often Jesus and the Disciples and Paul affirmed the fulfillment of prophecies in the life of Christ and the foundations of the church.
Should we (the church) actually be struggling for the physical 'promised land' for the Christian Church.....or should we be focusing on 'and praying for a casting out the bondwoman' whereever we live and looking forward to the 'new Jerusalem".

Again, none of these passages.....nor Dan 9, nor Rom 11, nor 2 Tim 2:15 nor Thessalonians, establish proof or discussion for a RE-seperation of the Body of Christ into a once again Law obeying "Jewish Israel" and a 'raptured church'. In fact these verses seem to conclude that it always was the 'Spiritual seed' and the 'Spiritual Israel' that the promises where given to.

Are there some who think the descendants of Hagar will Inheirit a law abiding millenial kingdom??? Paul says: Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law. The son of the freewoman shall inheirit the promises. (Spiritually, who we are)

If you (or any of the others) care to clarify how the Israel of God is not now the True one body of Christ, I'd be interested to know.
We have seen from Romans that the Idolatrous Israel was among those reserved for destruction as Pharoah armies that perished in the Red Sea. So also I believe that EZekiel 12:21 and following was refering to the last generations of the prophets at that time and to the ending of the 'rebellious house' that Danial was told about.

I noticed that you didn't offer a response to EZ 12:21 and following passage and also didn't offer a response to my reply to the discussion of Isaiah 61 which Jesus quoted from. And that reply being that the event of the 'acceptable year of our Lord, is the same even as 'the day of vengence of our God' as according to the way it was written in Hebrew Poetry. This 'vengence' would eventually be against all who would not recieve the propitiatory death of Christ or his teaching.....and also in the near time frame, when the wrath of God was poured out on Jerusalem for killing the prophets and Christ and for an ending of the 'rebellious house'.

Main point of discussion

Now the main point in starting this response was to expose what Paul says about the promise that you quoted in Numbers. "Blessed is he that Blesses you and cursed is he that curseth you." This promise is part of the same promise that God made to Abraham that Paul actually refers to as 'the Gospel' and that promise being ....in thee will all the nations of the earth be blessed. Now if Paul also says that these promises are meant to the seed (not seeds)being Christ, and that the Body of Christ of Israel and Gentile is now Joined together under one body of Christ of ALL NATIONS, Then Does not the blessing and cursing promise that you quoted in Numbers NOW apply ONLY to those true believers in Christ..... the 'Sons of God"..... the Israel of God, the Body of Christ.??? Didn't Paul say that God would repay those who had injured Him more than one time in his letters. And also ..... Jesus said almost as a curse.... Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Paul also said to the High Priest ..... the lord smite thee... if I recall correctly... I'm sure there are other blessing and cursing parallels in the Gospels and Epistles. The Woe's to the Pharisee's and Sacucees come immediately to mind.

Thus there is examples, ample evidence through precedence and confirmation in Scripture that even the blessing/cursing promise have been transfered to Christ himself and then to the Disciples and the unified Body of Christ, the Israel of God. And this being so, it stands as further proof against the teachings of especially the new scofield bible in which these promises were newly reassigned to the fabricated state of Israel. This again is where the church is weakened by assigning these things falsly, and closing their eyes. Who shall we believe? Paul or Scofield??

Now saying this about the Millstone, there are often times when people will innocently say something that turns out untrue or misleading while a person is attempting to build his/her house on Christ and the decisions of His/Her Life on rocks of truthfull information. There are other times when people have malicious intent, envy, strife, or revenge in their hearts and mind. I would think God would hold far more accountable those who would intentionally and/or malitiously offer false information rather than those who may have been misled into providing false information. God can be the judge on all things, and he is full of grace and mercy to all.

I will gladly let Biblewriter respond in detail.

But here are a few points:
1. Israel always refers to natural descendants of Jacob
2. The olive tree is not Israel: it bears Israel "naturally".
3. The gentiles are not engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel.
4. The Church exists since Pentecost. (and it will be raptured at the rapture). It is as dispensationalists call it: "a parenthesis" in God's dealing with mankind.

Well, I'll leave at that.

Notrash · Aug 27, 2007

holdon said:
I will gladly let Biblewriter respond in detail.

But here are a few points:
1. Israel always refers to natural descendants of Jacob
2. The olive tree is not Israel: it bears Israel "naturally".
3. The gentiles are not engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel.
4. The Church exists since Pentecost. (and it will be raptured at the rapture). It is as dispensationalists call it: "a parenthesis" in God's dealing with mankind.

Well, I'll leave at that.

Thanks again for your dispensational lenses.

From reading the opening sections, the forum welcomes both dispensationalist of all kinds and non-dispensationalists.

We (I)have been taught the "parenthesis of the church" But it is "Israel" from Abraham (technically Jacob) to the Prophets who are the true parenthesis in Gods saving of "all nations" who are under Adam through the protoevangellion of Gen 3:15. See, I can give out authoritarian styled opinions also. This is what Paul is refering to in Gal 3 especially vs 7-9 and
Eph 3:9-13

and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

.

Salvation to all nations under Adam. Israel was the stewards of the seed though blinded by the law.
I'll now hand your dispensational "laws of interpretation" back to you.
As terrel would say: Thanks for not dealing with the substance, verses and logic of the post but rather offering opinions from your dispensational perspective.
So your casting a vote for Scofield rather than Paul... correct?

Not rash.

holdon · Aug 27, 2007

Notrash said:
Thanks again for your dispensational lenses. From reading the opening sections, the forum welcomes both dispensationalist of all kinds and non-dispensationalists.

Sure. Pot and kettle, shall we say? I'am talking about those lenses.

We (I)have been taught the "parenthesis of the church" But it is "Israel" from Abraham to the Prophets who are the true parenthesis in Gods saving of "all nations" who are under Adam through the protoevangellion of Gen 3:15.

No denying that the time from Abraham to the prophets was a special time. Some of us here would call that: a dispensation. Smile. Now, as to the "protoevangelion" of Gen 3:15, it's rather a curse for the serpent than an invitation to be saved. But crushing Satan's head is certainly good news.

See, I can give out authoritarian styled opinions also. This is what Paul is refering to in Gal 3 especially vs 7-9 and
Eph 3:9-13 .

Salvation to all nations under Adam. Israel was the stewards of the seed though blinded by the law.
I'll now hand your dispensational "laws of interpretation" back to you.
As terrel would say: Thanks for not dealing with the substance, verses and logic of the post but rather offering opinions from your dispensational perspective.
So your casting a vote for Scofield rather than Paul... correct?

Not rash.

Sorry, I don't know much about Scofield. So, give me Paul anytime.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 27, 2007

Sorry, I don't know much about Scofield. So, give me Paul anytime.

Anyone that believes in a future "Rapture" has heard of Scofield.

1 Corin 4:18 And as if I were not coming unto you certain were puffed up; 19 I shall be coming/eleusomai <2064> yet swiftly/tacewV <5030> toward you, if the Lord may will, and I will know not the word of those puffed up, but the power;

Reve 22:20 he saith--who is testifying these things--`Yes, I come/ercomai <2064> swiftly/tacu <5035> !' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.

holdon · Aug 27, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Anyone that believes in a future "Rapture" has heard of Scofield.

1 Corin 4:18 And as if I were not coming unto you certain were puffed up; 19 I shall be coming/eleusomai <2064> yet swiftly/tacewV <5030> toward you, if the Lord may will, and I will know not the word of those puffed up, but the power;

Reve 22:20 he saith--who is testifying these things--`Yes, I come/ercomai <2064> swiftly/tacu <5035> !' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.

I didn't say that I had never heard of Scofield.

But it was definitely Paul who came up first with the future rapture:

1 Thess 4:16 for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

4:17 then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. 4:18 So encourage one another with these words.)

Notrash · Aug 27, 2007

holdon said:
Sure. Pot and kettle, shall we say? I'am talking about those lenses.No denying that the time from Abraham to the prophets was a special time. Some of us here would call that: a dispensation. Smile. Now, as to the "protoevangelion" of Gen 3:15, it's rather a curse for the serpent than an invitation to be saved. But crushing Satan's head is certainly good news.
Sorry, I don't know much about Scofield. So, give me Paul anytime.

Well Pauls 'dispensation' of Grace that he refers to in I think Galations..or Ephisians.... is the Dispensing of certain knowledge from God to Paul. The knowledge itself is not the dispensation nor is it the epoch of time that is refered to by Paul as the dispensation.... but it is the giving of the Knowledge. If there is a 'dispensation' in Pauls instance it is the 'dispensation of the knowledge and the Epoch of the "Everlasting Gospel" which is that of Everlasting to Everlasting... the same protoevangellion that Paul refers to as "THE GOSPEL" when talking of the Promise to Abraham... "in thee will all the nations of the earth be blessed"

Hmmm Protoevangellion.... interesting name for a curse.. The curse of serpent is 3:14...The good news is that God promised to overthrow the damage done by Satan in the Garden and that being the judgement of eternal death by the symbolic language of bruising or 'crushing Satans head'. They were kicked out of the garden. This was done at the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ... who was the JUST dying for the UNJUST thereby offsetting any accusations of injustice or of God not holding to His law that anyone could throw against God when he offers and promises Eternal life. This is the Gospel available to all nations under Adam.

It is my belief that Adam/Eve believed God even though it is unstated and thus God sacrificed an innocent animal (possibly a lamb or sheep) to provide their temporary covering until Christ came. Remember how David danced naked.....without covering or shame as a type of the restoration of Edenic state before the fall through Christ. Not to get too carried away with these thoughts now.... Paul has some reference to this idea, but cant' think of where now.

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
"Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."

Some scriptures say "crush his head" and I'm not sure of the differences, but it's not that important for this instance.

Now remember in Isaiah 53, He was BRUISED for our iniquities.....

Now talking about the Holy Spirit (helper) who would come after Jesus died and ascended in John 16; 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. The Teaching Ministry of Christ, the Death and Resurection is the Bruising or Crushing of the Serpent. His Crushing of Satan's kingdom may come in the lake of fire.

There are further thoughts and connections that can be made... but some are assumptive/speculative and not detailed or clearly defined in Scripture. Such as that God foreknew Adams/Eves temptation and fall and allowed for it by allowing the tree of Knowledge of Good AND evil and the Serpent in the Garden. Thus the Garden scenario provided the opportunity decided before the foundation of the world, as scriptures allude to, to cast out Satan, provide for lawful redemption of that created in His image (man), and judge Satans desiring to be 'like' God and judge his rebellion which is contrary to being contented to develop abundance and fullness of Life as a being created in His likeness and Image..(we are already (g)ods).
As many have realized there is no temptation or tree of the knowledge of Good and evil in the eteral kingdom, but only the tree of life and Satan and rebellion are cast into the lake of fire.

:preach:

A personalized parallel....when some sinners are first becoming convicted of sin and guilt and the desire to live eternally with him... ..... and yet guilt and insecurity remains.....some can become despaired in thinking that there is no way of Salvation as they continue to 'miss the mark of doing and being 'good'.....they fall into a cycle of repenting and confessing evey sin, each and every night and pleading forgiveness. But while continuing to ASK, SEEK, KNOCK, logic in an introspective way would say, wait, I am a created being, HE is the Creator who Created 'ME" in a world where temptation and sin exists and with a seeming natural bent towards it. Wouldn't HE also Create a way for His Created beings to excape the uncertainty and fear of these recurring sins...of eternal death? Yes, the answer is that GOD is reponsible to Provide the way of Escape since He allowed temptation and sin to be a possibility. That way is Found in faith in Christ (GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH) to pay for the judgement of my sin. All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Eph 2:5-9

The blind man called out to Jesus... Son of David.... have mercy on me... and said it again. SON OF DAVID, have mercy on me..... Jesus response..was What would you have me do for you. Although seeming unneccesary...It is an important question... What do we want from Jesus..... Do we have faith that HE is Willing and Desireous to Grant that request? Do we believe that He is ABLE to grant that request? If so, Identify the request and Ask faith believing. Anyone asking for something other than to have their sins (past, present, future) forgiven and to be granted eternal life with their Creator as their first request of faith....doesnt' seem to get the big picture of the possibility of dying tomorow. Although God in his wisdom could answer those other prayers to build that persons faith, for He is God. ....... All who call upon the name of the Lord (Jesus) will be saved. God has confirmed them all (nations) in disobedience that HE might have mercy on All (nations) :preach:

done.

God is not willing that any should perish but all to come to eternal life... So we dont' have to ask "according to His will" on the salvation request..

Notrash · Aug 27, 2007

holdon said:
I didn't say that I had never heard of Scofield.

But it was definitely Paul who came up first with the future rapture:

1 Thess 4:16 for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

4:17 then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. 4:18 So encourage one another with these words.)

Offering 'other' lenses to Holdon. (dont' like to be pigeonholed, but the lenses presntly are acquiring a pretertist/amillenial tint to them, but the ideas of that pigeonhole are acquiring me, not me adopting them.

Could the first resurection of Rev be refering to an individuals resurrection from the dead (spiritually) as Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:1, 2:5,6, especially verse 6, Jesus alludes to in Matt 22:31,32, and in John 11:17-44. I'm sure this is mentioned other times too.

I have some thoughts concerning the Thess passage, but not refined enough to offer them. But Thess does not neccisarily refer to a "pre-millenial" caught up.

I'll take my lenses back now.. thanks...

holdon · Aug 27, 2007

Notrash said:
Offering 'other' lenses to Holdon. (dont' like to be pigeonholed, but the lenses presntly are acquiring a pretertist/amillenial tint to them, but the ideas of that pigeonhole are acquiring me, not me adopting them.

Could the first resurection of Rev be refering to an individuals resurrection from the dead (spiritually) as Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:1, 2:5,6, especially verse 6, Jesus alludes to in Matt 22:31,32, and in John 11:17-44. I'm sure this is mentioned other times too.

I have some thoughts concerning the Thess passage, but not refined enough to offer them. But Thess does not neccisarily refer to a "pre-millenial" caught up.

I'll take my lenses back now.. thanks...

Resurrection is never "spiritually". It is a bodily resurrection.

Lasik may also be an option for you...

holdon · Aug 27, 2007

Notrash said:
Hmmm Protoevangellion.... interesting name for a curse.. The curse of serpent is 3:14...The good news is that God promised to overthrow the damage done by Satan in the Garden and that being the judgement of eternal death by the symbolic language of bruising or 'crushing Satans head'. This was done at the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ... who was the JUST dying for the UNJUST thereby offsetting any accusations of injustice or of God not holding to His law that anyone could throw against God when he offers and promises Eternal life. This is the Gospel available to all nations under Adam.

It is my belief that Adam/Eve believed God even though it is unstated and thus God sacrificed an innocent animal (possibly a lamb or sheep) to provide their temporary covering until Christ came. Remember how David danced naked.....without covering or shame as a type of restoration. Not to get too carried away with these thoughts now.... Paul has some reference to this idea, but cant' think of where now.

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
"Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."

Some scriptures say "crush his head" and I'm not sure of the differences, but it's not that important for this instance.

Now remember in Isaiah 53, He was BRUISED for our iniquities.....

Now talking about the Holy Spirit (helper) who would come after Jesus died and ascended in John 16; 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. The Teaching Ministry of Christ, the Death and Resurection is the Bruising or Crushing of the Serpent. His Crushing of Satan's kingdom may come in the lake of fire.

There are further thoughts and connections that can be made... but some are assumptive/speculative and not detailed or clearly defined in Scripture. Such as that God foreknew Adams/Eves temptation and fall and allowed for it by allowing the tree of Knowledge of Good AND evil and the Serpent in the Garden. Thus the Garden scenario provided the opportunity decided before the foundation of the world, as scriptures allude to....to cast out Satan, provide for lawful redemption of the created image, judge Satans rebellion, and the desiring to be 'like' a God...... rather than content to develop fullness of Life as a create being in His likeness and Image..(we are already (g)ods)......and yet still . As many have realized there is no temptation or tree of the knowledge of Good and evil in the eteral kingdom, but only the tree of life and Satan and rebellion are cast into the lake of fire.

A personalized parallel....when some sinners are first becoming convicted of sin and guilt and the desire to live eternally with him... ..... and yet guilt and insecurity remains.....some can become despaired in thinking that there is no way of Salvation as they continue to 'miss the mark of doing and being 'good'.....they fall into a cycle of repenting and confessing evey sin, each and every night and pleading forgiveness. But while continuing to ASK, SEEK, KNOCK, logic in an introspective way would say, wait, I am a created being, HE is the Creator who Created 'ME" in a world where temptation and sin exists and with a seeming natural bent towards it. Wouldn't HE also Create a way for His Created beings to excape the uncertainty and fear of these recurring sins...of eternal death? Yes, the answer is that GOD is reponsible to Provide the way of Escape since He allowed temptation and sin to be a possibility. That way is Found in faith in Christ (GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH) to pay for the judgement of my sin. All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Eph 2:5-9

The blind man called out to Jesus... Son of David.... have mercy on me... and said it again. SON OF DAVID, have mercy on me..... Jesus response..was What would you have me do for you. Although seeming unneccesary...It is an important question... What do we want from Jesus..... Do we have faith that HE is Willing and Desireous to Grant that request? Do we believe that He is ABLE to grant that request? If so, Identify the request and Ask faith believing. Anyone asking for something other than to have their sins (past, present, future) forgiven and to be granted eternal life with their Creator as their first request of faith....doesnt' seem to get the big picture of the possibility of dying tomorow. Although God in his wisdom could answer those other prayers to build that persons faith, for He is God. ....... All who call upon the name of the Lord (Jesus) will be saved. God has confirmed them all (nations) in disobedience that HE might have mercy on All (nations) done.

God is not willing that any should perish but all to come to eternal life... So we dont' have to ask "according to His will" on the salvation request..

You got quite some musings there in this post. Just dropping by to clarify:

Gen 3:14,15 are the curse to the serpent. That Satan's head gets crushed is good news, but that in and of itself wouldn't save people. They still need to believe on Christ for their salvation.

Notrash · Aug 27, 2007

holdon said:
You got quite some musings there in this post. Just dropping by to clarify:

Gen 3:14,15 are the curse to the serpent. That Satan's head gets crushed is good news, but that in and of itself wouldn't save people. They still need to believe on Christ for their salvation.

Christ is the Seed of the woman promised. Thats the Great news.

The Garden is where the offense occured that ended eternal life, casting them away from the tree of life. The Garden is also where the promised rememdy occured. Faith in the Living God/Creator and his ability to accomplish the bruising of Satans head is similar to faith in the Living God who did accomplish that Bruising in the past. (the crucifiction and resurrection) That Adam/Eve had children could be symbolic of the obedience part of their faith. And this is why Jesus went back from Abel to Zechariah? when he cast the responsibility and blood of the murdered prophets onto 'this generation'.

For the wages of Sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal Life. (to all nations Paul says other places. (Through the promised SEED of the woman through faith in the Living God.)

Notrash · Aug 27, 2007

holdon said:
Resurrection is never "spiritually". It is a bodily resurrection.

Lasik may also be an option for you...

Again, authoritative lasik operation for meee... ?? :wave:

No thanks..

Ephesians 2: 6 is a spiritual raised up. Col 3:1, Col 2:2 although not actually called 'resurrection'. Jesus says... I AM the resurrection and the Life...and also I AM the God of Abraham...etc.. RESURRECTION life and RESURRECTED LIFE begins when we are raised up from the dead and seated in heavenly places with HIM. Eph 2:1-9, Where oh death is thy sting Paul says...

holdon · Aug 27, 2007

Notrash said:
Christ is the Seed of the woman promised. Thats the Great news.

The Garden is where the offense occured that ended eternal life and cast them away from the tree of life. The Garden is also where the promised rememdy occured.

For the wages of Sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal Life. (to all nations Paul says other places. (Through the promised SEED of the woman through faith in the Living God.)

I would say: The Cross is where the promised remedy occurred. But we agree in the main I think.

holdon · Aug 27, 2007

Notrash said:
Again, authoritative lasik operation for meee... ?? No thanks..

Ephesians 2: 6 is a spiritual raised up. Col 3:1, Col 2:2 although not actually called 'resurrection'.

Exactly! Although it can be said (with Paul) that we are now raised up, it cannot be said that we have been resurrected. These are 2 different words in the original. You had Eph. 2:6 "raised" mentioned before, along with Mt 22 and Jn 11 where it is "resurrected", hence my reaction. Different thought, different word.

Biblewriter · Aug 28, 2007

Notrash said:
Again, none of these passages.....nor Dan 9, nor Rom 11, nor 2 Tim 2:15 nor Thessalonians, establish proof or discussion for a RE-seperation of the Body of Christ into a once again Law obeying "Jewish Israel" and a 'raptured church'. In fact these verses and letters from Paul seem to conclude that it always was the 'Spiritual seed' and the 'Spiritual Israel' that the promises where given to.

I am preparing for an extensive trip across much of America, so I have not had the time to answer your many posts and will (D.V.) soon be gone for some weeks. But I will try to address this one.

I know of no dispensationalist that teaches a future economy based on law, instead of grace. But Romans 11 distinctly says:

15For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This passage begins with how much better Israel's reconciliation will be than its casting away was. It then warns us of a similar casting away if we are not faithful, and says "God is able to graft them in again," "if they abide not still in unbelief." My thread "the unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentance" quotes many scriptures that expressly promise that Israel will eventually repent. Paul quotes one of these scriptures in verse 26. The passage ends by saying that Israel is beloved for their father's sakes, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

The end result of what you are saying is that "the branches were broken off, that I might be graft in." Paul clearly denounces this attitude. You have devoted much energy to prove that Paul was not saying what his words say. But they are very simply, if accepted in simplicity.

If you (or any of the others) care to clarify how the Israel of God is not now the True one body of Christ, I'd be interested to know.

I would not try to clarify that, because I do not believe it. The Israel of God is now the body of Christ, but the operative word here is now. The passage above is only one of many that clearly states that Israel will be restored.

I noticed that you didn't offer a response to EZ 12:21 and following passage and also didn't offer a response to my reply to the discussion of Isaiah 61 which Jesus quoted from. And that reply being that the event of the 'acceptable year of our Lord, is the same even as 'the day of vengence of our God' as according to the way it was written in Hebrew Poetry. This 'vengence' would eventually be against all who would not recieve the propitiatory death of Christ or his teaching.....and also in the near time frame, when the wrath of God was poured out on Jerusalem for killing the prophets and Christ and for an ending of the 'rebellious house'. And that the futher context of the prophecy could be attributed directly to rebuilding the cities of the desolation and the double honors bestowed upon the disciples.

Ezekiel 12 clearly states that the prophecies directly referred to apply to Ezekiel's near future. This has no bearing on the general discussion. I did not think your comments about Hebrew parallelism deserved an answer. This is because it is, in my estimation, only a clever way to avoid what the prophets say.

Main point of discussion

Now the main point in starting this response was to expose what Paul says about the promise that you quoted in Numbers. "Blessed is he that Blesses you and cursed is he that curseth you." This promise is part of the exact same promise that God made to Abraham and that Paul actually refers to as 'the Gospel' and that promise being ....in thee (his spiritual seed as Paul clarifies) will all the nations of the earth be blessed. Now if Paul also says that these promises are meant to the seed being Christ,(not seeds) and that Israel and Gentile is now Joined together under one body of Christ of ALL the NATIONS of the earth, Then Does not the blessing and cursing promise that you quoted in Numbers NOW apply ONLY to those true believers in Christ..... the 'Sons of God"..... the Israel of God, the Body of Christ.??? Didn't Paul say that God would repay those who had injured Him more than one time in his letters. And also ..... Jesus said almost as a curse.... Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Paul also said to the High Priest ..... the lord smite thee... if I recall correctly... I'm sure there are other blessing and cursing parallels and examples in the Gospels and Epistles. The Woe's to the Pharisee's and Saducees come immediately to mind.

Thus there is examples, ample evidence through precedence and confirmation in Scripture that even the blessing/cursing promise refered to seed of 'faith', fulfilled in Christ himself and then to the Disciples and the unified Body of Christ, the Sons of God, the Israel of God. And this being so, it stands as further proof against the teachings of especially the new scofield bible in which these promises were newly reassigned to the fabricated state of Israel. This again is where the church is weakened by assigning these things falsly, and closing their eyes.

Your problem is that you are doing exactly what you are accusing us of doing. You are using your interpretation of the meanings of various scriptures to set aside the express statements of many other scriptures. The following passage has unquestionably not been fulfilled and is completely incompatible with what you say. But it is only one of many such.

Ezekiel 20:33As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Again, Ezekiel 47 and 48 precisely describe of the future borders of the land, and say how it is to be divided. You either believe this, or you don't.

Who shall we believe? Paul or Scofield??

This is great for building prejudice, but contributes nothing to the discussion.

Oye11 · Aug 28, 2007

Biblewriter said:
I am preparing for an extensive trip across much of America, so I have not had the time to answer your many posts and will (D.V.) soon be gone for some weeks. But I will try to address this one.

Have a great trip brother. Be safe, eat well, and enjoy the fresh air and scenery.

Plus a little reprieve from message boards would do any man good...

A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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