@ Miss Shellby
God does not aid in the state of the reprobate. The reprobate destroys himself by his own devices, his own sinful nature. God does however aid in the spiritual state of the elect.
The question, is merely: "Is SALVATION
and REPROBATION,
God's choice? Under Calvanism, every person on the PLANET, through all TIME are reprobate and Hell-bound. It is only God's
forceful interference that irresistably saves
those whom He has chosen. So, to try to accomodate the premise that, "God does NOT reprobate the lost", is non-sequitir. God certainly
chooses the elect to salvation, and He absolutely chooses the unelect for perdition by His choice to
NOT-choose-them!
In
BOTH CASES, both SALVATION
and condemnation
ARE GOD'S CHOICE!
Can we agree, that "BELIEF", and "FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION", are identically the SAME? And also identically the same as RECEIVING CHRIST?
If so, then let's look at the verses you present:
2Thess2:13---this is the verse that Adrian Rogers (television, "Love Worth Finding") presented
in OPPOSITION to predestination. We are chosen from the beginning,
THROUGH OUR OWN BELIEF.
The key to the Eph1:4 verse, is the phrase, "IN HIM"; could that phrase, possibly, present salvation, as "predestined in Christ from the beginning, that whosoever BELIEVES is therefore IN HIM,
BY their belief"? Please look at Eph1:11-14---"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. IN HIM, you also, after litening to the message of truth, the gospel of yoursalvation---
having ALSO BELIEVED, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance..."
OK, let's think about that---having been predestined according to the purpose of His will---does that mean He predestined us, or that He predestined CHRIST, that
whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life? In verse 13 it very clearly says, "the SEAL of the Holy Spirit, is affixed on the very document of our BELIEF"!
You see, passages like Eph1 & Rom9, make very good cases for "Predestined-Election"---until you read other passages that clearly speak of the univerality of salvation. Because salvation is offered univerally (verses to follow at the end of this post), there would be clear contradiction if the passages really meant "predestined-for-salvation"...
In Rom11:2, "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew". Let's jump to Rom8:29---"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn amon many brethren." WHAT is predestined? "them to be CHRISTLIKE". Who-them? "Those whom He
foreknew". In both of these passages, is it
possible, that the FOREKNOWN, are they who BELIEVED? Thus their
salvation would not be predestined, but their predestination-towards-CHRISTLIKENESS, is founded on their BELIEF.
Continuing in Rom11, verse 4: "I left to myself seven-thousand men who bowed-not a-knee to-Baal. Thus then also in the present time a-remnant according-to election of-grace there-has-been." (word-for-word from Greek) Election of grace? Unilateral? Or could this be consistent with, "by grace
through faith"? Verse 11:18-23: "Do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root but the root supports you. You will say, then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Quite right, they bwere broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches (notice this word, BRANCHES, is PLURAL---those who contend this is a PEOPLE, cannot explain why this is PLURAL---it seems to mean, instead, individuals who COMPRISE a people) ...neither will He spare you. Behold then the severity of God; to those who
fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness,
if you CONTINUE in His kindness, otherwise YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. And they also, if they do not cintinue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again, for God is able to graft them in again." Now---which part of this whole passage supports predestination???
John6:44: "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him". The word for "draw" here, is "helkuo"---it means "forcefully-drag". Predestination? Consider John12:32: "And I ...will HELKUO-DRAW/DRAG
all men to Myself." ALL MEN? This is UNIVERSAL, not predestined.
John6:40: "And this is the will of God, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life..."
Everyone. Not a "select few whom God chose beforehand".
John15:16, "You did not choose Me but I chose you"---in that payment-for-our-sins, was accomplished on the Cross, sufficiently and completely, He chose us. But, are those whom He CHOSE, are they also those whom He FOREKNEW? Consider the parable of Matt22:2-14---the king invited a few to the wedding feast, they refused to come. Then the king invited EVERYONE ELSE. They came. But ONE of them refused to put on clean clothes that the king had provided---and he was cast out. Verse 14 is the key: "For MANY are CALLED, but FEW are CHOSEN". In the parable, who all ended up being called? EVERYONE! And who became the CHOSEN? Only those who came, AND clothed themselves with righteousness!
While we are in John 15, please look at verses 1-6, esp 6: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is throwsn away as a branch, dries up, is gathered and cast into the fire." If we are predestined, how then can someone NOT-ABIDE? The passage simply doesn't support predestination.
You don't think Judas was chosen? Please turn back to John6, verse 67-70: "Jesus said to the twelve, 'YOU do not want to go away too, DO you?' Peter answered, 'No---we know you are the Messiah'. Jesus said, 'Did I not choose you,
the TWELVE, and one of you is a devil?'" Jesus chose
all twelve, including Judas. Judas chose to be a devil. Jesus said, "you're not leaving, are you?" Peter said, "We know better". Jesus said, "But one of you DID leave!"
Jn17 is parallel to Jn6---where those given to Jesus,
are they who believed. Consider verses 39 & 40---would you agree that there is
one group (the SAVED, the ELECT) who is to be
raised up? This group is both
they-whom-are-given-to-Jesus, AND
they-who-believed. There is NOTHING here that says "giving preceeds belief"---they are parrallel---They believe, AND are given to Jesus.
Do you see? It is all BELIEF---voluntary belief.
Acts 13:48, uses the verb, "TASSO"---specifically, "tetagmenoi", which exists in the passive voice---very much consistent with the understanding, "they appointed THEMSELVES". In other words, "As many as were INCLINED to salvation, believed."
Heb12---Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith? You might wanna check on the Greek for this: "Jesus is the ARCHEGOS (leader) and TELEIOTES (highest example of faith) of our faith." This simply does not endorse predestination.
Happy to discuss Romans 9, if you wish---it also does not support unilateral election.
Now---I promised to quote some "universality" verses. How about, "God our Savior, desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:4 Desires ALL MEN? Or only the ELECT? It plainly says "all men".
"Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not only ours but also those of the HOLOS KOSMOS entire whole world." WHOLE WORLD? Or only the ELECT? He is the prepitiation for ALL,
if they believe... (1Jn2:2)
"Let the one who is thirsty come; let O THELOS
whosoever will take the water of life freely." Rev22:17
"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and who receive the abundance of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
SO THEN, as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to PAS ANTHROPOS all men,
EVEN SO (in exactly the same way) through one act of rightesouness there resulted justification to PAS ANTHROPOS all men." Rm5:17-18
Condemnation came to ALL, justification came to ALL. Not to a "select few", but to ALL.
Those who RECEIVE the gift of grace and righteousness will reign with Christ. We started this post with the premise, that "BELIEF", and "FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION", and "RECEIVING-CHRIST"---were ALL THE SAME.
Here then are some of the many verses that present salvation, as
universally available. Now, if you understand the verses you presented, AS you presented them, in support of predestination, you have undeniable contradiction with the "UNIVERSALITY" verses (not to MENTION the real apostasy-to-condemnation-of-prior-believers-verses, which we haven't even DISCUSSED here---happy to cite them if you wish!). But if the verses are understood as
I have presented them, as being based on voluntary belief,
then they ALL harmonize perfectly!
Perfectly---under the banner of "Responsible Grace", not "Predestined Election"...
(Did you read Miss Shelby's post on the fact that Judas cast out demons, which combined with Jesus' assertion that the devil cannot cast out demons, leads to the inescapable conclusion that Judas MUST have been saved WHEN he cast out the demons?)