A discussion of the Catholic and Orthodox views on Mortal sin and realted issues

kamikat said:

So, what is your interpratation of Matt 19:9?
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

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3And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

4Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said:

5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away?

8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

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Jesus teaches us from the beginning a lawful marriage can not be taken apart. A lawful marriage joined two ppl, a man and a woman together as one.

Fornication, where the parties are not lawfully married is the exception.

Unless you are a fornicator, one who is not lawfully married or one who has relations with someone with out the benifit of marrige, you are NOT free to marry.

Those who are lawfully married are not free to marry another person just becuase they have a bill of divorce.

Unfaithfulness between two who have been made one does not break this covenant, nothing does.

Tell me truthfully, every divorce the Orthodox church allows was due to unfaithfullness? Are you sure about that?

There are many divorcees that have come into your church, were they all divorced becuase of unfaithfullness?

Benedicta00 said:

Jesus teaches us from the beginning a lawful marriage can not be taken apart. A lawful marriage joined two ppl, a man and a woman together as one.

Fornication, where the parties are not lawfully married is the exception.

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I see no "lawfully married" in that verse. Where does it say "unlawfully married" in Matt 19:9

Tell me truthfully, every divorce the Orthodox church allows was due to unfaithfullness? Are you sure about that?

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Considering that I don't know every single person in the ORthodox Church, I'd say "I have no idea"
Are you sure that every annullment in your church is between two people who lawfully married? (there's at least one couple in my family who were told they just needed to make a larger "donation" in order to get theirs through).

There are many divorcees that have come into your church, were they all divorced becuase of unfaithfullness?

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What happens prior to becoming Orthodox is of no concern. One comes into the Church as a new babe in Christ.

kamikaze said:

I see no "lawfully married" in that verse. Where does it say "unlawfully married" in Matt 19:9

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It says, accept for fornicators. What is a fornicator? one who sleeps with someone they are not married to.

Read the verse again, And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

The exception to "re-marry" is for those who are not lawfully married, for fornicators. Those are who is free to "put away their wife" and marry another. Why? because they were never lawfully married in the first place.

Where does Jesus say this? Read the verses, He explains to the Pharisees what a lawful marriage is and it is what GOD joins together as one flesh and said that no man can take what HE joins apart.

No where did he say that adultery takes two who were joined by God as one, apart. No where does He say that.

What He said was, fornicators, those who were not join together as one flesh by God, are free to marry. They are free to marry becuase they were never married to begin with.

And further more, the Pharisee and Jesus are discussing who is free to marry.

Read it again, The Pharisee ask, is it lawful to put away you wife for any old reason?

Jesus said, from the beginning God intended man and women to be joined together as one flesh. So from the beginning God said it was not so. Once God joins two ppl together as one, they are one and no man can undo that.

So then, Jesus goes on to say, anyone who does do that, who puts his wife away and tries to re marry- will commit adultery ( a serious sin to the Jews) and anyone who will try to marry a woman who was put away, also will commit adultery.

The ones who are free to put their wives away and marry are those who were never really married in the first place.

Only God can marry. Only death breaks the covenant.

Considering that I don't know every single person in the Orthodox Church, I'd say "I have no idea"
Are you sure that every annulment in your church is between two people who lawfully married? (there's at least one couple in my family who were told they just needed to make a larger "donation" in order to get theirs through).

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That's a shame, they are being lead into sin. The Church does not 'teach' that bribery breaks the covenant. This is what clerics and divorced ppl choose.

It's sad indeed, but a divorced person could go about it honestly and insist on a honest process. If one party paid off the Church the other party can always contest it.

So no the Church does not 'teach' that divorce is okay. That is the difference between us, your does.

What happens prior to becoming Orthodox is of no concern. One comes into the Church as a new babe in Christ.

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So you also claim you have the power to say a lawful marriage between two baptized Protestants or between two baptized Catholics was invalid?? Nice how you can say that grace never flowed or how you think you can just take it away when it did.

Benedicta00 said:

So you also claim you have the power to say a lawful marriage between two baptized Protestants or between two baptized Catholics was invalid?? Nice how you can say that grace never flowed or how you think you can just take it away when it did.

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When Protestants come into the Catholic church, they have to get remarried. Isn't that saying that the Catholic church says a lawful marriage didn't happen?

kamikat said:

When Protestants come into the Catholic church, they have to get remarried. Isn't that saying that the Catholic church says a lawful marriage didn't happen?

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ah, no they don't. If they were both baptized and married in their faith lawfully, meaning neither being a divorcee. Their marriage is recognized by the Church.

Benedicta00 said:

I'm still wanting to know why they believe they have the power to undo a valid ordination?

But then again, they believe they also have the power to undo a valid sacramental marriage too.

What God as joined, no man can take apart.

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Actually I did my *own* research, and it seems the Orthodox will generally not require a Catholic priest who converts to be ordained again, though they do require an Anglican one to be ordained on conversion. They have a theological principal called "economy".

See, they do have theology! http://www.scoba.us/resources/economy.asp

(They just don't like to admit it. )

Benedicta00 said:

ah, no they don't. If they were both baptized and married in their faith lawfully, meaning neither being a divorcee. Their marriage is recognized by the Church.

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Hmm, ok. Could it vary from location to location, ie a more liberal or more conservative priest saying something else? My neighbors claim that their priest required them to get remarried just after their confirmation service when they were brought into the church.

This thread is 31 pages long....

I suggest we agree to agree to start a NEW thread on this whole divorce topic....

Can we come together as Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox to take a stand against ridiculously long threads that have nothing to do with the OP?

Da_Funkey_Gibbon said:

Actually I did my *own* research, and it seems the Orthodox will generally not require a Catholic priest who converts to be ordained again, though they do require an Anglican one to be ordained on conversion. They have a theological principal called "economy".

See, they do have theology! http://www.scoba.us/resources/economy.asp

(They just don't like to admit it. )

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I'm sorry but this is completely contrary to my own research of just a year or so again. I specifically have spoken about the issue to a Greek Orthodox Bishop, an OCA priest, and an Antiochian priest. All tell me the same thing that if a Roman Catholic priest were to convert and want to serve as a priest he would have to be ordained, (two of them even said he would have to be chrismated)

Well, yeah - even that source in the end chalks it up to spiritual discernment, hence the term generally, but I did see another one that was clearer.

Well wikipedia says it is a matter of "much debate" in EO, which would be accurate, but to say flat out that Orthodoxy doesn't recognise any sacraments outside its own communion seems to be a vast oversimplification at best, especially seeing as they are willing to recognise the non-RC/Anglican apostolic churches outside Orthodoxy.

It really depends on the decision of a bishop in charge -
I do think that the general experience is that priests will be ordained (it is not considered to be re-ordination)...

However, it does really depend on the bishop.

I am sure that Serbs would definitely ordain those coming from Latin confession while Anglicans may or may not have to be ordained (Serbs in diaspora generally have extremely large respect for Church of England - even after 1999 bombing and current UK policy towards Serbia) - depending on which particular confession they come from -

Also, I am not an expert - this is just what I've been told by our priesthood and bishop here in Australia.

Many years.

Da_Funkey_Gibbon said:

Actually I did my *own* research, and it seems the Orthodox will generally not require a Catholic priest who converts to be ordained again, though they do require an Anglican one to be ordained on conversion. They have a theological principal called "economy".

See, they do have theology! http://www.scoba.us/resources/economy.asp

(They just don't like to admit it. )

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Interesting.

zhilan said:

This thread is 31 pages long....

I suggest we agree to agree to start a NEW thread on this whole divorce topic....

Can we come together as Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox to take a stand against ridiculously long threads that have nothing to do with the OP?

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Change to 40 posts/page... it'll only be on page 8 then!!

kamikat said:

Hmm, ok. Could it vary from location to location, ie a more liberal or more conservative priest saying something else? My neighbors claim that their priest required them to get remarried just after their confirmation service when they were brought into the church.

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Kamikat, you're going to run out of gas on this one.

I could care less about who is liberal and who isn't. Clerics and bishops disobey the Church all the time. It's sad but true.

We are talking about what the Church actually teaches.

Valid marriages outside of Catholicism, we recognize that grace does flow to those who are validly baptized outside the Church.

When ppl come into the Church, the Church will look at the circumstances of their marriage and determine if it was valid or not. There are many many things to determine, I couldn't possibly discuss all the scenarios.

When I went through RCIA 15 years ago to be confirmed, me and my husband, who is also Catholic had to 'get married' becuase we were two baptised Catholics who got married by a judge. We had no business doing that, we were not lawfully married in God's eyes.

Do you get it? It all depends.

What the point here is, we do not TEACH that you can divorce your spouse for any reason if you have a valid, sacramental marriage.

Even two unbaptized Atheist coming into the Church might not have to be married again if they only received a civil marriage.

Their marriage would be considered valid, but not a sacramental for obvious reasons, they aren't baptized.

I'm not a 100% sure but after baptism and entrance into the Church, I think then the grace would naturally flow to them, I dont believe they would have to have a ceremony.

So again the difference is recognizing that baptized persons outside the Church indeed has the grace of God.

Benedicta00 said:

Kamikat, you're going to run out of gas on this one.

I could care less about who is liberal and who isn't. Clerics and bishops disobey the Church all the time. It's sad but true.

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Do you always have to be so short? I just put that forth because that's what I've been told. I'm not pushing it, I'm just asking for clarification.

kamikat said:

Do you always have to be so short? I just put that forth because that's what I've been told. I'm not pushing it, I'm just asking for clarification.

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No I don't have to be, sorry.