Dungeons and Dragons

Sad day in Orthodoxy when a Priest does not say that Dungeons and Dragons is evil...

And what, pray tell, do you even know about that priest? Do you know what that holy man has been through? Sad day when sheep believe they're shepards. I apologize for my tone, but I'm pretty annoyed by 'opinion not equal to mine equals apostasy and satanism' stance. We're discussing Dungeons and Dragons, not the Divinity of Christ. And do try to elaborate on your position a tad.

Let's not be annoyed!

I sympathize with your position, repentant, but have to agree with SC that we can't make dogmatic pronouncements (particularly in the name of the Church) on D&D, Harry Potter (which I also believe to be more harmful than good) or anything else that's not dogma. We can't second-guess that priest.

That said, all of this stuff encourages the fantasy of unnatural control over events by humans, something that Christian fantasists like Tolkien and Lewis avoided, and in the case of HP and D&D, generally does it in the same ways in which real-life enemies of God (demons, witches, etc) do (personal might acquired through knowledge and learning (Gnosticism) and methods which involve spells and often some form of death to achieve the power.)

I played D&D, TFT and other RPGs in my time, was a GameMaster (or DungeonMaster - basically takes the role of God) and the new world of computer RPGs has become more openly demonic in general than the Gary Gygax stuff of the 70's ever was - even at the age of 15 I knew that stuff was wrong and taking the roles of the good guys and white magic was:
a) boring
and
b) did not change that feeling. :o
(Just so you young-uns don't think that us old-timers don't understand anything about what you're up to! )

Anybody ever play Morrowind?

Think I started playing that five years ago...on and off since.

Obviously, everybody is going to have different opinions on things. Look at the Iconoclasts way back.

I don't have a problem with it (and I don't think it is unOrthodox), I kinda wish I could get back into it myself.

Oblio said:

I don't have a problem with it (and I don't think it is unOrthodox), I kinda wish I could get back into it myself.

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Me too but it's so hard to find anyone to play with anymore.

rusmeister said:

Let's not be annoyed!

I sympathize with your position, repentant, but have to agree with SC that we can't make dogmatic pronouncements (particularly in the name of the Church) on D&D, Harry Potter (which I also believe to be more harmful than good) or anything else that's not dogma. We can't second-guess that priest.

That said, all of this stuff encourages the fantasy of unnatural control over events by humans, something that Christian fantasists like Tolkien and Lewis avoided, and in the case of HP and D&D, generally does it in the same ways in which real-life enemies of God (demons, witches, etc) do (personal might acquired through knowledge and learning (Gnosticism) and methods which involve spells and often some form of death to achieve the power.)

I played D&D, TFT and other RPGs in my time, was a GameMaster (or DungeonMaster - basically takes the role of God) and the new world of computer RPGs has become more openly demonic in general than the Gary Gygax stuff of the 70's ever was - even at the age of 15 I knew that stuff was wrong and taking the roles of the good guys and white magic was:
a) boring
and
b) did not change that feeling. :o
(Just so you young-uns don't think that us old-timers don't understand anything about what you're up to! )

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Too bad he didn't take your very reasonable approach rather than accusing us of having no faith. I agree to a large extent and it truly permeates every aspect of the entertainment media.

What if we play D&D on the Old Calendar

JustinHesychast said:

And they would probably say that... because it isn't.

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It actually is, Justin, but you are blinded to that fact by the current state of confusion in your life.

I've done my fair share of roleplaying in the Forgotten Realms and elsewhere and really had a good time doing so, but I've seen people become totally lost in it and it lead them to having some strange ideas about reality. An old friend of mine who won't be named got so sucked into fantasy that he's living in a house full of slackers who practice being fighters and samurai, go on ghost hunts to exorcise them from people for a fee, cast runes to give people 'guidance'... all kinds of stuff. Two or three of them are bisexual, too.

Can you say 'deluded'? They're the playthings of demons and they think it's something real.

You have to stop to consider that the adversary works through many mediums, and when you open yourself up to certain things it can effect you in different ways. You might think it's completely natural but it isn't, you know?

Heck, when I was 14 I chanted 3 words repetitively that a ouija board told me, and I ended up on drugs and drinking heavily, hating life and ignoring the God Who made it, living a totally depraved, blasphemous and sinful life with people no better.

Thank God I was given a moment of grace to find Him.

Hey, roll some dice if you want to, engage in a little fantasy. Just don't let anyone con you into any paganism. Life might get a little more messed up than you would hope.

I've never been big on fantasy rpging. D&D being the worst of the lot to me, though one game, Pentadragon was cool just because of the way they did the knightly virtues.

I do like Sci-fi gaming such as Fading Suns, Battletech, and Star Trek. Fading Suns uses something similar to the CC with renamed things (Pancreator for God) and the priests do have powers as well as the dangers. Battletech just uses the same faiths we now have and Star Trek is well Star Trek (though I do have an Orthodox npc on the pbem game I do).

There is one game that is absolutely fun to be the good guys in and that's Deadlands. It's a spagetti western horror of good vs. evil and the blessed (certain holy people, usually priests) can call on the power of God to fight the forces of evil. Oh and most people around you don't know that there's a battle between good and evil going on, evil prefering to hide and cause fear from the shadows.

Other than that, I'd say stay far far far away from the World of Darkness stuff.

JustinHesychast said:

DnD is a fantasy ROLEPLAYING GAME. Unless you start believing it's real, there is absolutely nothing evil about it.

I'm open to your point of view, if you'd like to explain, however.

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I think Justin has a good point that needs to be addressed here.

One of the biggest issues (if you set aside ones about time spent on it) is the nature and effect of the fantasy on real life. I hope, Justin, I can paraphrase your statement correctly as a question: Does it matter whether the actions are real or not? Is doing harm in fantasy harmless? Is participating in magical spells involving Hands of Glory harmless as long as it remains in the imagination? (I hope we all agree that the actual actions are indeed harmful)

One thing that comes to my mind right away is Christ's injunction regarding divorce and adultery.
Matt. 5:28

"But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh at a woman to lust after her hath commited adultery with her alreadyin his heart."

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In it, it is made clear that what happens in the mind is just as real, for spiritual purposes, as actually doing it. I think that says something about a LOT of what goes on in FRPGs.

I do think that Tolkien, in particular, made an excellent case for the responsible use of fantasy as sub-creation (so won't blast fantasy in general), but it is far too easy for our fantasies to go astray, and when the authors or designers are not even Christian, and just plain don't share our (Orthodox) world view, you can expect to find fantasies not pleasing to God all over the place, making the FRPGs quite dangerous, at the very least.

Michael the Iconographer said:

I do understand what you are saying, but there is part of me that even has an issue with the Jedi in Star Wars, no matter how much I do love Star Wars. Yoda may be the most kick butt little green guy in the existence and a most wise old sage, but he still has a power that does not come from God. And all power that does not come from God comes from some place else that is not of God. So while I know Star Wars is fantasy I have to work harder and harder to willingly suspsend my disbelief while watching it the older I get. But Potter, that is just bad stuff and I don't get how Christians can let their children read the stuff.

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What I don't understand is how you can so roundly condemn Harry Potter, D&D and even have doubts about Starwars yet think it perfectly fine to listen to AC/DC, Great White, Def Lepperd and any other number of classic rock bands that have dark themes and very dark, suggestive music.

Obviously, we live in a secular world. So, anything we "get into" that hasn't anything to do with God, could be looked at in a bad way.

That said, if we are "into" God and still like things of this world, do you thing God is going to appreciate that?

Probably not, but I don't speak the mind of God, so I don't know for sure.

Even then, that pretty much knocks out everything from: movies, games, TV, etc.

If we all confessed, right now, how "devoted" we are to God (meaning we aren't "into" secular things), then not one of use would be able to say that we are as devoted as we could/should/whatever be.

Condemning one act of "secularist" isn't going to fix the rest.

(Sorry for the random sentences. )

Dust and Ashes said:

What I don't understand is how you can so roundly condemn Harry Potter, D&D and even have doubts about Starwars yet think it perfectly fine to listen to AC/DC, Great White, Def Lepperd and any other number of classic rock bands that have dark themes and very dark, suggestive music.

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The Classic Rock bands might have dark undertones, but they do not praise openly demonic activity. I have yet to hear a Def Leppard/Great White/Whitesnake/Metallica song which praises witchcraft. AC/DC is very troublesome I must admit because some of their music while being great instrumentally is very problematic lyrically. But at the same time none of those bands go arround playing a game where you practice doing spells on each other or where the characters titles are "the god of ---".

rusmeister said:

I think Justin has a good point that needs to be addressed here.

One of the biggest issues (if you set aside ones about time spent on it) is the nature and effect of the fantasy on real life. I hope, Justin, I can paraphrase your statement correctly as a question: Does it matter whether the actions are real or not? Is doing harm in fantasy harmless? Is participating in magical spells involving Hands of Glory harmless as long as it remains in the imagination? (I hope we all agree that the actual actions are indeed harmful)

One thing that comes to my mind right away is Christ's injunction regarding divorce and adultery.
Matt. 5:28


In it, it is made clear that what happens in the mind is just as real, for spiritual purposes, as actually doing it. I think that says something about a LOT of what goes on in FRPGs.

I do think that Tolkien, in particular, made an excellent case for the responsible use of fantasy as sub-creation (so won't blast fantasy in general), but it is far too easy for our fantasies to go astray, and when the authors or designers are not even Christian, and just plain don't share our (Orthodox) world view, you can expect to find fantasies not pleasing to God all over the place, making the FRPGs quite dangerous, at the very least.

Click to expand...

The kicker in that would be whether or not participating in, and enjoying, the game constituted an honest desire to engage in real paganism.

I mean, have you ever watched Transformers? Was it cool when the big robot shot the gun and building blew up? Did it make you want to blow up buildings? Does that mean you committed the sin of blowing up a building?

The only danger (but a real one) is failing to separate reality from fiction. Justin, just be careful that you don't use fantasy and role-playing as an escape from dealing with the problems of your real life. They can be a great way to socialize with friends, to engage in imaginative improvised acting, etc, but (as I think you know) they aren't your life. Just make sure you stay engaged.

I'll ask it this way: does any fictional account of something we would call sinful become, by proxy, sinful?