Christian Rock - Evil?

Nutella said:

Do you think christian rock is "evil"? If "yes", why? Or are there only some bands that you would consider "evil"?

I came across this website today and now I'm wondering.....

http://www.av1611.org/crock.html

Click to expand...

Music styles have always been a hot-button issue in most denominations, most likely reaching as far back as the beginnings of the Christianity. In our "elder brother" frame of mind it is quite easy to come to a harsh judgement.

In my own fairly liberal church, we have lost some of our members over the praise music service that was begun about 6 years ago. Many were still bitterly divided when I rejoined the congregation 2 1/2 years ago. Most who have left our fellowship have migrated to one of the other more conservative churches in the area so it has not been a faith breaking issue.

I find many beautful messages in the songs of such groups and Casting Crowns and other contemporary Christian bands. Is the message according to the true teachings of Jesus? Does this message shine through with the music or does it get lost in the beat. I think these are the broad measures that should be used and not does the music style conform to what any one person might deem appropriate.

If we are too hasty in demonizing Christian rock, we distance ourselves from those who appreciate it. I believe it is best to help our young people and old grannies like me who enjoy the genre learn the proper discernment to determine what is pure and what is not - what reveals God and what is of His adversary.

Contemporary Christian music played a huge role in my actually becoming a Christian. I don't believe that it's evil. I think this is one of those issues in which people confuse their own personal tastes with moral absolutes.

I was wondering how long it would be until this topic reared its ugly head.

Nutella, you may as well have thrown gasoline on an open flame, because that is where this thread is surely headed.

I have listened to Christian rock/pop/metal for over 20 years, and also have about 2000 CCM CD's in my collection, so I don't speak as someone not informed on the topic.

First off, let me say that the website you linked to is a pile of sensationalist garbage, started by judgmental 'Christians' who have nothing better to do then demonize and condemn devoted, committed contemporary Christian musicians. It's sick and disgusting, blatant character assassination. Michael W. Smith has demonstrated himself to be 10 times the Christian these people who despise his music are. I have been to many of his concerts, beheld the altar calls and lives changed, and borne witness to his exemplary Christian behaviour and life on and off stage.

'Don't believe everything you read on the net' is generally a good rule.

There have always been and there will always be nay-sayers in the SDA church who will think the way those on this anti-CCM site do, it is unavoidable. As long as people like Sam Bacchiocchi and Brian Neumann are around, the CCM lovers in the church will always face persecution. When Bacchiocchi released his book The Christian And Rock Music, the witchhunt was on and the purge and inquisition of Contemporary expressions of worship was at an all time high. How many youth left our ranks as a result of Bacchiocchi's cursed book, we will never know:

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/rockbook/

It's unbelievable the nonsense we CCM lovers have had to endure in the SDA church. That ridiculous supposed 'scientific' experiment, where plant life was subjected to classical music and flourished while the ones subjected to rock music died within days, is still making the rounds in the church. Then there is the one about how CCM and celebration worship was introduced into the SDA church by Jesuit plants and the RCC to pave the way for ecumenism. Or how about how the 4/4 beat stimulating the base appetites and channeling the desire for sexual intercourse into the frontal lobe of the brain.

You will also hear how they believe music is not neutral and positive lyrical content means nothing, or how the music bypasses the rational, decision making area of the brain (that one was always a favourite of mine.)

Amazing Discoveries has a whole series of lectures on this stuff:

http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/SMVideo.html

Brian Neumann is doing a lot of damage in the church, IMO, and is being needlessly divisive.

I have heard it all, there is nothing they can throw at me I have not already heard.

if you want to read a good, balanced book on this topic, I would recommend Joyful Noise by Ed Christian:

http://www.amazon.com/Joyful-Noise-...4348736?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187469343&sr=1-1

Editorial Reviews

Book Description
Too many Christians assume that the music they like is the music God likes. By forbidding the music they don't like, they alienate the young. Ed Christian argues that music should be judged not by personal tastes, but by its spiritual fruits. God approves of music that leads people closer to Him, whether we like it or not. When it comes to music for the worship service, however, unity is important. Appropriate church music doesn't alienate or offend, but brings people together and lifts them up to God.
The author examines the arguments of those who reject contemporary Christian music in favor of traditional classics and shows how God can use the new music to bless churches and change lives.

From the Author
Kids, if you are sick and tired of people running down the CCM you love, you need this book, because it will help you combat their silly arguments. Great gift idea for parents, teachers, pastors!
Parents, if you are worried about that music your kids are listening to and what it is doing to them, this book will guide you and offer sensible advice that works. Great gift idea for kids! Pastors and Parishioners, if you are wondering about using CCM in your church and weighing the pros and cons, this book will cut through the nonsense and help you think clearly.



And, please, no one post the EGW quotes talking about the Indiana camp meeting and how such music shocks the senses and how such worship cannot be used to praise God, blah, blah, blah. I have heard that one quoted to me hundreds of times over the years. Those quotes are standard ammunition used by those who would love to see all contemporary forms of musical expression crushed out and only the hymnals left standing. Never mind the fact that she was referring specifically to fanaticism and the Holy Flesh movement.

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. If people want to limit themselves to Bach, The Heritage Singers and Del Dekker, go nuts. That never was and will never be me.

NightEternal said:

There have always been and there will always be naysayers in the SDA church who will think the way those on this site do, it is unavoidable. As long as people like Sam Bacchiocchi and Brian Neuman are around, the CCM lovers in the church will always face persecution. When Bacchiocchi released his book The Christian And Rock Music the witchhunt was on and the purge and inquisition of Contemporary expressions of worship was at an all time high. How many of our youth left our ranks as a result of bacchiocchi's curded book, we will never know:

Click to expand...

Reading through his work I found some I agreed with and some I disagreed with. As to contemporary music I do have problems with repetitive music that has little point. I enjoy some contemporary and much of the praise music, however.

I think a book that is better to read, that raises SOME of the same issues but in a more rational way is "The Christian and His Music." I would have to check the book cover to see the author's name, but Bacchiocchi quoted some from him but missed his major point.

He was a teacher of music for years in the Adventists system. He was quite upset about the trend of rock music (secular mostly) influencing the youth. This was several decades ago.

His solution though was to form an inherently Christian style that avoided the problems but allowed for new forms and real worship. In many ways some of the modern praise music has done just that.

I will say also that when I listened in my youth to metal (secular) that it did have a negative impact on my thinking, words or not.

And the difference when listening to the first CD's I got that were Christian was remarkable. At that time I started listening to Boltz, Michael Card, Don Francisco etc.

As for Christian metal..hm...my brother listened to som "Christian death metal" (that really sounds like an oxymoron to me). It sounded a bit like a singing garbage disposer.

I can't say it did much for me.

I am not sure what to think of the studies Bacchiocchi cites. Some of it is a bit odd, and it has been a while since I looked at it but one of the guys doing a study in that book had his own new age issues and was trying to push them through the study. I wasn't sure he was a reliable source.

In any case, I have no problem with modern music but when the song starts to take precedence over the message I think it crosses the line.

I also enjoy most hymns. But even then the repetitive ones of those grate on my nerves.

As for the biblical data, I don't see a whole lot of support for the idea that rather energetic praise is wrong.

You all have probably heard this before but had to post it when a music topic came up:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] An old farmer went to the city one weekend and attended the big city church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well," said the farmer, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang praise choruses instead of hymns."[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Praise choruses," said his wife, "What are those?"
"Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like hymns, only different," said the farmer .

"Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The farmer said, "Well it's like this - If I were to say to you: 'Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well that would be a hymn. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]" 'Martha Martha, Martha, Oh, Martha, MARTHA, MARTHA,
the cows, the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows,
the white cows, the black and white cows,
the COWS, COWS, COWS are in the corn,
are in the corn, are in the corn, are in the corn,
the CORN, CORN, CORN,'

then, if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well that would be a praise chorus."[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On the same week a young big-city Christian skipped his local church one weekend and attended the small town church.
He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well," said the young man, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang hymns instead of regular songs."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Hymns," said his wife, "What are those?"

"Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like regular songs, only different," said the young man.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife. The young man said, "Well it's like this - If I were to say to you, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 'Martha,the cows are in the corn,' well that would be a regular song. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 'Oh Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry
Inclinest thine ear to the words of my mouth.
Turn thou thy whole wondrous ear by and by
To the righteous, inimitable, glorious truth.

For the way of the animals who can explain
There in their heads is no shadow of sense,
Hearkenest they in God's sun or his rain
Unless from the mild, tempting corn they are fenced.

Yea those cows in glad bovine, rebellious delight,
Have broke free their shackles, their warm pens eschewed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Then goaded by minions of darkness and night
They all my mild Chilliwack sweet corn have chewed.

So look to that bright shining day by and by,
Where all foul corruptions of earth are reborn.
Where no vicious animal makes my soul cry
And I no longer see those foul cows in the corn.'

then, if I were to do only verses one, three and four and do a key change on the last verse, well that would be a hymn."[/FONT]

Tall, that was awesome.

As for Christian death metal and thrash metal, I agree, it is an aquired taste.

The band Vengeance Rising was a good case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMCszoP0kVM

That style has a specific purpose and is specifically directed to youth who are already listening to it's secular counterparts and would never in a million years darken the door of the church. I have interacted with these kids, and I can tell you they are pretty much hardened to any other style of music. Most secular death metal is Satanic in its lyrical content, so you can understand the work and careful execution these Christian bands have to do to reach those who listen to them. Anyone who thinks you can reach these extreme kids with Sandi Patti are living in a dream world outside our galaxy.

Nutella said:

Do you think christian rock is "evil"? If "yes", why? Or are there only some bands that you would consider "evil"?

I came across this website today and now I'm wondering.....

http://www.av1611.org/crock.html

Click to expand...

No. But anything that gets in the way of the important issues is wrong. When the Christian Music industry becomes so commercialised and consummerised that it gets in the way of Jesus, then that is wrong.

It's not the music that is wrong, but I think the industry has lost its way a bit. Think about it, you can devalue old hymns by making them a marketing commodity.

tall73 said:

Reading through his work I found some I agreed with and some I disagreed with. As to contemporary music I do have problems with repetitive music that has little point. I enjoy some contemporary and much of the praise music, however.

I think a book that is better to read, that raises SOME of the same issues but in a more rational way is "The Christian and His Music." I would have to check the book cover to see the author's name, but Bacchiocchi quoted some from him but missed his major point.

He was a teacher of music for years in the Adventists system. He was quite upset about the trend of rock music (secular mostly) influencing the youth. This was several decades ago.

His solution though was to form an inherently Christian style that avoided the problems but allowed for new forms and real worship. In many ways some of the modern praise music has done just that.

I will say also that when I listened in my youth to metal (secular) that it did have a negative impact on my thinking, words or not.

And the difference when listening to the first CD's I got that were Christian was remarkable. At that time I started listening to Boltz, Michael Card, Don Francisco etc.

As for Christian metal..hm...my brother listened to som "Christian death metal" (that really sounds like an oxymoron to me). It sounded a bit like a singing garbage disposer.

I can't say it did much for me.

I am not sure what to think of the studies Bacchiocchi sites. Some of it is a bit odd, and it has been a while since I looked at it but one of the guys doing a study in that book had his own new age issues and was trying to push them through the study. I wasn't sure he was a reliable source.

In any case, I have no problem with modern music but when the song starts to take precedence over the message I think it crosses the line.

I also enjoy most hymns. But even then the repetitive ones of those grate on my nerves.

As for the biblical data, I don't see a whole lot of support for the idea that rather energetic praise is wrong.

Click to expand...

I think it is Paul Hamel who wrote that book. He was at Andrews for quite a while.

Regards the Bacchiocci book:

I generally find that most of these books written by non-musicians have missed the mark terribly. (I'm not trying to get all elitest here.) Music is one of the most contextualised things that we have. There are a number of moving hymns and sacred classical works that have less-than-sacred beginnings, but the average church goer doesn't know the original context, so we make up our own, or the Holy Spirit gives us a new context.

I don't too much like Hamel's book, though I haven't read it in its entirety. I do think he does a better job than Bacchiocci though.

NightEternal said:

Tall, that was awesome.

As for Christian death metal and thrash metal, I agree, it is an aquired taste.

The band Vengeance Rising was a good case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMCszoP0kVM

That style has a specific purpose and is specifically directed to youth who are already listening to it's secular counterparts and would never in a million years darken the door of the church. I have interacted with these kids, and I can tell you they are pretty much hardened to any other style of music. Most secular death metal is Satanic in its lyrical content, so you can understand the work and careful execution these Christian bands have to do to reach those who listen to them. Anyone who thinks you can reach these extreme kids with Sandi Patti are living in a dream world outside our galaxy.

Click to expand...

Yeah well that was one he was listening to. I suppose there can't really be that many of them so that is not surprising!

In any case the tape had a nice cover of a man exploding on it.

DrStupid_Ben said:

No. But anything that gets in the way of the important issues is wrong. When the Christian Music industry becomes so commercialised and consummerised that it gets in the way of Jesus, then that is wrong.

It's not the music that is wrong, but I think the industry has lost its way a bit. Think about it, you can devalue old hymns by making them a marketing commodity.



I think it is Paul Hamel who wrote that book. He was at Andrews for quite a while.

Regards the Bacchiocci book:

I generally find that most of these books written by non-musicians have missed the mark terribly. (I'm not trying to get all elitest here.) Music is one of the most contextualised things that we have. There are a number of moving hymns and sacred classical works that have less-than-sacred beginnings, but the average church goer doesn't know the original context, so we make up our own, or the Holy Spirit gives us a new context.

I don't too much like Hamel's book, though I haven't read it in its entirety. I do think he does a better job than Bacchiocci though.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that was the one. One thing is for sure...almost every book I have seen on the subject has a HORRIBLE looking cover!

I'm just wondering why reaching those kids with the TRUTH outside of music is so bad?

I think that the fact that these secular kids are so 'hardened' by the music they listen to just goes to show the powerful impact music does have on the mind. I'm sure if those same kids had been listening to say, the likes of Don Willliams, they wouldn't be so full of hate and anger.

I absolutely do believe that beat and rythmn DO have an impact--either for good or evil.

I love that Tall. Absolutely brilliant. Never heart it before. Context, context, context.

Just what is a "secular kid"?

honorthesabbath said:

I'm just wondering why reaching those kids with the TRUTH outside of music is so bad?

Click to expand...

I think at this point I have to agree.

NightEternal said:

Anyone who thinks you can reach these extreme kids with Sandi Patti are living in a dream world outside our galaxy.

Click to expand...

This made me laugh ........ alot.

honorthesabbath said:

I'm just wondering why reaching those kids with the TRUTH outside of music is so bad?

I think that the fact that these secular kids are so 'hardened' by the music they listen to just goes to show the powerful impact music does have on the mind. I'm sure if those same kids had been listening to say, the likes of Don Willliams, they wouldn't be so full of hate and anger.

I absolutely do believe that beat and rythmn DO have an impact--either for good or evil.

Click to expand...

True, you can reach them outside of music, but even then they are still against most other types of music. I see no difference between the kids who only will listen to heavy metal, death metal, punk, etc and those who won't listen to anything composed after 1825 (I know one of these people, anything after Beethoven just doesn't cut it). If music is involved in evangelism, you won't be able to reach them with a contemporary christian soft rock song. Many of us have selective musical preferences, and we generally want to hold on to that selective preference.

NightEternal said:

I was wondering how long it would be until this topic reared its ugly head.

Nutella, you may as well have thrown gasoline on an open flame, because that is where this thread is surely headed.

I have listened to Christian rock/pop/metal for over 20 years, and also have about 2000 CCM CD's in my collection, so I don't speak as someone not informed on the topic.

First off, let me say that the website you linked to is a pile of sensationalist garbage, started by judgmental 'Christians' who have nothing better to do then demonize and condemn devoted, committed contemporary Christian musicians. It's sick and disgusting, blatant character assassination. Michael W. Smith has demonstrated himself to be 10 times the Christian these people who despise his music are. I have been to many of his concerts, beheld the altar calls and lives changed, and borne witness to his exemplary Christian behaviour and life on and off stage.

'Don't believe everything you read on the net' is generally a good rule.

There have always been and there will always be nay-sayers in the SDA church who will think the way those on this anti-CCM site do, it is unavoidable. As long as people like Sam Bacchiocchi and Brian Neumann are around, the CCM lovers in the church will always face persecution. When Bacchiocchi released his book The Christian And Rock Music, the witchhunt was on and the purge and inquisition of Contemporary expressions of worship was at an all time high. How many youth left our ranks as a result of Bacchiocchi's cursed book, we will never know:

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/rockbook/

It's unbelievable the nonsense we CCM lovers have had to endure in the SDA church. That ridiculous supposed 'scientific' experiment, where plant life was subjected to classical music and flourished while the ones subjected to rock music died within days, is still making the rounds in the church. Then there is the one about how CCM and celebration worship was introduced into the SDA church by Jesuit plants and the RCC to pave the way for ecumenism. Or how about how the 4/4 beat stimulating the base appetites and channeling the desire for sexual intercourse into the frontal lobe of the brain.

You will also hear how they believe music is not neutral and positive lyrical content means nothing, or how the music bypasses the rational, decision making area of the brain (that one was always a favourite of mine.)

Amazing Discoveries has a whole series of lectures on this stuff:

http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/SMVideo.html

Brian Neumann is doing a lot of damage in the church, IMO, and is being needlessly divisive.

I have heard it all, there is nothing they can throw at me I have not already heard.

if you want to read a good, balanced book on this topic, I would recommend Joyful Noise by Ed Christian:

http://www.amazon.com/Joyful-Noise-...4348736?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187469343&sr=1-1

And, please, no one post the EGW quotes talking about the Indiana camp meeting and how such music shocks the senses and how such worship cannot be used to praise God, blah, blah, blah. I have heard that one quoted to me hundreds of times over the years. Those quotes are standard ammunition used by those who would love to see all contemporary forms of musical expression crushed out and only the hymnals left standing. Never mind the fact that she was referring specifically to fanaticism and the Holy Flesh movement.

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. If people want to limit themselves to Bach, The Heritage Singers and Del Dekker, go nuts. That never was and will never be me.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. One or my friends started arguing to me about how Christian rock is evil. He used the old, if you take the lyrics out what do you get" retarded move.

music affects people, there's no question. it's a scientifically proven fact. There is music that induces anger, music that induces love, music that induces worship, and music that induces all kinds of emotions. Music we listen to in order to worship should be music that gets us in a worshipful mood. If there is a certain rock song that gets you into that mood, then it's fine. I don't much care for Christian Rock; it's a little too boring for me, but i'd say it's a healthy alternative to the negative rock that's out there.

Yes it is. I would say the lyrics affect people more than the music though.

how so?

gaara4158 said:

how so?

Click to expand...

The lyrics display the main message of the song, the music just helps it along.