Are you saved by faith or your works?

Jon0388g

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OntheDL;I think the bible says He is still interceding for us, does it not? He said it is finished. He will also say it is done just prior to His return.

The atonement was completed at the cross, period. This belief that it was not is one of the teachings that QOD identifies as abberant and heterodox according to mainline Protestantism.

Night, do you believe that intercession is part of atonement? If not, what is it for?


The only works we will be judged by is the perfect merit and works of Christ, which are imputed to us.

What about this text?

"For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil." Ecclesiastes 12:14

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:20

"For I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12:36-37


The bible says he that overcomes and endures to the end, the same is saved.
We overcome by the blood of Christ, and His victory over and the overcoming of sin, hell and death at the cross becomes our own by faith.

Amen. But when you say "becomes our own by faith" what do you mean? Imputed not imparted?

Overcoming by the blood of the Lamb is not just Christ's sacrifice, but the change wrought in us by Christ's sacrifice. Remember, blood and water poured out of His side. If there is no change, all we can cry is "Lord Lord".

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling!


Christ + Nothing = Salvation


"...work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Phillipians 2:12-13

"however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained...for our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself." Philippians 3:16, 20-21


Jon
 
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sentipente

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Anyone who has left the Father's side is a rebel. The prodigal son turned away from his rebellion and walked to the waiting father who welcomed him back. He chose to accept salvation.
You forgot to mention that the Father did not go after him nor did He send anyone after him. Show me one human who fits that bill.
 
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PeacefulSDA

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You forgot to mention that the Father did not go after him nor did He send anyone after him. Show me one human who fits that bill.
That is implied with my saying that the Father was waiting for his return.

Luke 15:18- 20: 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

I'm not sure what you mean by your final statement. There is no human like the Father. The best any one can do is to get to know Him so well that they can reflect Him.
 
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PeacefulSDA

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I meant one person who meets the bill of the prodigal son. One person the Father did not pursue and returned on his own.

How many of us have been extravagantly wasteful with the inheritance we have been given as was the prodigal son? How many of us are the lost coin, the lamb wandering away? Jesus gave these three examples and affirmed at the end of the first two that there is joy in heaven when one sinner repents. The last parable in the series, the prodigal son, made that joy and celebration clear as well.

Could these three examples cover all humanity to some degree or another? How many humans do you feel fit the bill of the prodigal? I believe it to be a large number for the world is full of rebellion.
 
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PeacefulSDA

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PB, there is not one human that the Father has not pursued. That is the message of the parable.

The coin and the sheep did not make any move to return, the prodigal did. The father ran to him while he was still a long way off, so he did, indeed go to him and embraced him as the Shepherd did the lost sheep. All three parables also speak to the precious nature of each human in God's eyes.

Did the prodigal's father pursue him? He constantly watched and waited for him to return. His love for his son never faltered. He did run to him at the end, so yes, in those ways he pursued him.
 
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sentipente

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You are missing the deliberate contrast between the prodigal son and the coin or the lost sheep. Humans never left their Master. Humans were deceived. Every human since Adam has been born in the home of their captor. They have grown up not know who their true Master is. Until we understand what really happened in Eden we will never understand what happened at Calvary.
 
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StormyOne

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You are missing the deliberate contrast between the prodigal son and the coin or the lost sheep. Humans never left their Master. Humans were deceived. Every human since Adam has been born in the home of their captor. They have grown up not know who their true Master is. Until we understand what really happened in Eden we will never understand what happened at Calvary.
to further this point, look at the examples before us. How many kids, kidnapped at a young age want to go home and stay with their real parents when they are found? They have to be introduced to their bio-parents because they have no relationship with them. Their relationship remains with the ones who kidnapped them, and it is a long process for bonds to form with the real parents.....

Look at all the possible inferences that can be made from human examples.....
 
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Jimlarmore

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Jim, the difficulty you are having understanding someone who speaks your language makes me wonder about your ability to understand texts written in a language you do not speak. You will continue to cite texts with no regard to their context and there in nothing I can do about that. Thanks for the interaction.

Your welcome my friend but before I let this slide I have to know what you mean by me taking taking scripture out of context. If I have taken these texts out of context to show that man will be destroyed in the end by hell-fire then please provide me with the adjacent texts that show differently than that. Let your logic show my friend otherwise you do indeed stand refuted and rebutted on this issue as you have on several others.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Jimlarmore

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The coin and the sheep did not make any move to return, the prodigal did.

You have no evidence from scripture to indicate the sheep wasn't trying to find his way back. You make a statement of fact without supporting scripture. The coin is inanimate and incapable of moving on it's own so the symbolism for it to move or not is inappropriate. The parables each show how a loving savior seeks to save the lost.

The father ran to him while he was still a long way off, so he did, indeed go to him and embraced him as the Shepherd did the lost sheep. All three parables also speak to the precious nature of each human in God's eyes.

Did the prodigal's father pursue him? He constantly watched and waited for him to return. His love for his son never faltered. He did run to him at the end, so yes, in those ways he pursued him.

Praise God for this truth.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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PeacefulSDA

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You are missing the deliberate contrast between the prodigal son and the coin or the lost sheep. Humans never left their Master. Humans were deceived. Every human since Adam has been born in the home of their captor. They have grown up not know who their true Master is. Until we understand what really happened in Eden we will never understand what happened at Calvary.

Every person is given a measure of faith, and then there is also that organic connection we have to the Creator, so while I agree that humans are deceived and born into the home of their captor, we have always had the opportunity to know the Master, if even on the smallest of levels. We are in exile, no doubt about that. We are captives in a broken world.

Jeremiah 29:11 - 11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile."

Satan won the world in Eden but the plans were already set in motion to take it back at Calvary.
 
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PeacefulSDA

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Jim, my great-grandparents raised sheep. Sheep like external direction and are wont to find their own way to anywhere but lost. They may rush around madly trying to get somewere, but still not find their way home. They will follow the crowd over a cliff. They need a shepherd or a well-trained dog to get where they need to go.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Do you know anything about sheep?

Yep I do. I'm a country boy raised around all kinds of live stock. Some sheep are like cattle in a lot of ways. They graze in the feilds and follow paths they have taken many times before to go to water and come back to the barn during cold weather to get out of the cold wind.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Jimlarmore

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Jim, my great-grandparents raised sheep. Sheep like external direction and are wont to find their own way to anywhere but lost. They may rush around madly trying to get somewere, but still not find their way home. They will follow the crowd over a cliff. They need a shepherd or a well-trained dog to get where they need to go.

Yeah I have heard that , I guess the sheep I was raised around were different than most. The herd I was around was led by an old matriach ewe who knew her way around.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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NightEternal

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Night, do you believe that intercession is part of atonement?

No. My position is the same as outlined in Questions On Doctrine:


Sacrificial Atonement Provided; Sacrificial Atonement Applied



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QUESTION 30

Seventh-day Adventists are frequently charged with minimizing the atoning sacrifice completed on the cross, reducing it to an incomplete or partial atonement that must be supplemented by Christ's priestly ministry; perhaps it might be called a dual atonement. Is this charge true? Does not Mrs. White state that Christ is now making atonement for us in the heavenly sanctuary? Please explain your position, and state wherein you differ from others on the atonement.

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349
May we at the outset state most earnestly and explicitly that Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that Christ made but a partial or incomplete sacrificial atonement on the cross. The word "atonement," in the Scripture, has a wide connotation. While it involves basically the atoning sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross, it also embraces other important aspects of the work of saving grace.

The word "atonement" itself is like some other words used in the Bible, such as "salvation" and "redemption." Salvation involves something that is past, so that one can say, "I have been saved." It also refers to an experience in progress, so that he can say, "I am
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being saved" (see Acts 2:47, R.S.V). It also refers to the future; for there is a sense in which he can also say, "I shall be saved."
Much the same is true concerning the word "redemption." While the purchase price—the ransom—was paid at Calvary, and because of this we can say, "I have been redeemed," yet there are also certain aspects of redemption that are yet future. In Scripture we read of "the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23), and our Saviour, referring to His second advent, bade His followers "look up . . . for your redemption draweth nigh" (Luke 21:28).

The same principle obtains with reference to the word "atonement." Most decidedly the all-sufficient atoning sacrifice of Jesus our Lord was offered and completed on the cross of Calvary. This was done for all mankind, for "he is the propitiation . . . for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

But this sacrificial work will actually benefit human hearts only as we surrender our lives to God and experience the miracle of the new birth. In this experience Jesus, our High Priest, applies to us the benefits of His atoning sacrifice. Our sins are forgiven, we become the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, and the peace of God dwells in our hearts.

In the tabernacle days of old, when the mysteries of redemption were foreshadowed by many typical sacrifices and ordinances, the priest, after the death of the sacrificial victim, would place the blood on the horns of the altar. And the record states that in this act "the priest shall make an atonement for him [the sinner] as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him"
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(Lev. 4:26). Here the atoning sacrifice provided is followed by the benefits of the same atoning sacrifice applied. In Old Testament days both were recognized as aspects of the one great over-all work of atonement. The one aspect provided the atoning sacrifice; the other, the application of its benefits.

Hence, the divine plan of redemption involves more than the vicarious atoning death of Christ though this is its very core; it also includes the ministry of our Lord as our heavenly High Priest. Having completed His sacrifice, He rose from the dead "for our justification" (Rom. 4:25) and then entered into the sanctuary above, there to perform His priestly service for needy man. "Having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb. 9:12) on the cross, He now ministers the benefits of that atonement for those who accept of His mighty provision of grace. Thus the atoning sacrifice, having been completed on Calvary, must now be applied and appropriated to those who are heirs of salvation. Our Lord's ministry is thus involved in the great work of atonement. So as we think of the mighty sweep of the atonement, in its provisions and its efficacy, it is seen to be vastly more comprehensive than many have thought.

We should remember that men are not automatically, involuntarily, impersonally, or universally saved en masse. They must individually accept of grace, and it is our understanding that while Christ died provisionally and potentially for all men, and nothing more can be added, yet His death is actually and ultimately efficacious for those only who individually accept and avail themselves of its benefits
352 In order to be saved, there must be individual repentance and turning to God. The sinner must lay hold of the provisions of the fully completed atoning sacrifice made by Christ on Calvary. And application of the atoning provision of the cross, to repentant sinners and supplicating saints, becomes effective only through Christ's priestly ministry—and this whether a man fully understands it theologically or not.

It is this latter provision of priestly ministry that accomplishes the actual, experiential, and continuous heart cleansing in the individual, not only from the guilt but also from the pollution and power of sin. It is this that makes it efficacious to men. Christ's heavenly ministry in our behalf brings about the realization of peace and the joy of redemption through the gift of the Holy Spirit, which our ministering High Priest sends forth into our hearts. The atonement therefore involves not only the transcendent act of the cross, but also the benefits of Christ's sacrifice which are continually being applied to needy man. And this will continue on to the close of human probation.

For extracts concerning the atonement, see Appendix 661.
I. The Vast Sweep of the Atonement

In common with conservative Christians, Adventists teach an atonement that necessitated the incarnation of the eternal Word—the Son of God—in order that He might become the Son of man; and living His life among men as our kinsman in the flesh, might die in our stead to redeem us. We believe that the atonement provides an all-sufficient, perfect, substitutionary
353 sacrifice for sin, which completely satisfies the justice of God and fulfills every requirement, so that mercy, grace, and forgiveness can be freely extended to the repentant sinner, without compromising the holiness of God or jeopardizing the equity of His rule. "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Rom. 3:26).

In this way God completely justifies the repentant sinner, however vile, and imputes the perfect righteousness of Christ to cover his unrighteousness; and then imparts, through sanctification, His own righteousness to the sinner, so that he is transformed into the very likeness of Christ.

And the wondrous ultimate of it all will come through the glorification of our bodies at the second advent of our Lord, which will bring full and final deliverance from the very presence of sin forevermore. Christ, then, is in Himself the sacrificial offering, the ministering priest, and the coming king. That covers past, present, and future. And this, we believe, will eventuate in the final eradication from the universe forever of all sin and its effects as well as its malign originator. This, we understand, is the ultimate effect of the atonement made on Calvary
II. Atoning Sacrifice and Ministering Priest

We feel it to be most important that Christians sense the difference between the atoning act of Christ on the cross as a forever completed sacrifice, and His work in the sanctuary as officiating high priest, ministering the benefits of that sacrifice. What He did on
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the cross was for all men (1 John 2:2). What He does in the sanctuary is for those only who accept His great salvation.

Both aspects are integral and inseparable phases of God's infinite work of redemption. The one provides the sacrificial offering; the other provides the application of the sacrifice to the repentant soul. The one was made by Christ as victim; the other, by Christ as priest. Both are aspects of God's great redemptive plan for man.






That Seventh-day Adventists are not alone in this concept is evident from the following extracts from a recent book:
The Atonement is the work of God in Christ for man's salvation and renewal.—Vincent Taylor, The Cross of Christ (Macmillan, 1956), p. 87.​
In its nature and scope, the Atonement is both deliverance and attainment. It concerns man's sin and his blessedness; and it cannot be the one without being at the same time the other.—Ibid., pp. 87, 88.​
It is important at the outset to distinguish two aspects of the doctrine which can be separated in thought, but not without grave loss in practice. These are . . . (a) the saving deed of Christ, and (b) the appropriation of His work by faith, both individual and communal. These two together constitute the Atonement.—Ibid., p. 88.​
In consequence, atonement is both accomplished for us and wrought in us.—Ibid., p. 89.​
Perhaps our greatest need today, if we would rise above the poverty of much of our worship, is to experience once more the wonder and reliance upon Christ's ceaseless saving ministry, which is the true centre of Christian devotion and the abiding source of Christian living.—Ibid., p. 104.​
When, therefore, one hears an Adventist say, or reads in Adventist literature—even in the writings of Ellen G. White—that Christ is making atonement now,





355 it should be understood that we mean simply that Christ is now making application of the benefits of the sacrificial atonement He made on the cross; that He is making it efficacious for us individually, according to our needs and requests. Mrs. White herself, as far back as 1857, clearly explained what she means when she writes of Christ's making atonement for us in His ministry:
The great Sacrifice had been offered and had been accepted, and the Holy Spirit which descended on the day of Pentecost carried the minds of the disciples from the earthly sanctuary to the heavenly, where Jesus had entered by His own blood, to shed upon His disciples the benefits of His atonement. Early Writings, p. 260. (Italics supplied.)​
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Take note of this opening statement:

"May we at the outset state most earnestly and explicitly that Seventh-day Adventists do not believe that Christ made but a partial or incomplete sacrificial atonement on the cross."

So, belief in partial atonement at the cross is not orthodox SDA belief, but heresy.

If not, what is it for?

Intercession is part of the process that applies the merits of the atonement already made.

What about this text?

"For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil." Ecclesiastes 12:14

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:20

"For I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12:36-37

What about them? None say that at the cross partial atonement was made only. Neither is dual atonement theory proven by them.

Amen. But when you say "becomes our own by faith" what do you mean? Imputed not imparted?

Imputed. Imparted righteousness is a part of our maturing process and spiritual growth. Salvation is not determined by imparted righteousness.

Overcoming by the blood of the Lamb is not just Christ's sacrifice, but the change wrought in us by Christ's sacrifice. Remember, blood and water poured out of His side. If there is no change, all we can cry is "Lord Lord".

You are confusing overcoming and gaining victory over specific behavioural sins, which is a part of our sanctification experience, with the overcoming of sin and death that Christ alone accomplished through His sacrifice. The latter victory is ours by faith.

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling!

"...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Correct. You had better have things right with Christ and have accepted Him as your Saviour, or you will be trembling in the judgment. It's not saying 'through sheer will power and determination work to maintain the salvation which is already yours by faith out of fear that He will burn you in Hellfire.'

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Phillipians 2:12-13

"however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained...for our citizenship is in heaven,

Christian maturity and growth. Not referring to the assurance of our saved condition. The fruit not the root of salvation.

from which also we eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself." Philippians 3:16, 20-21

Glorification.
 
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PeacefulSDA

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This would be a nice time to also understand the work of the high priest on the Day of Atonement. It was a bit different the all of the other day.

It would also be a good time to remember that we have minutes, hours, days, months and years. Time was created for man's benefit. Remember what we learn about God's time - 2Peter 3:8, 9: 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

To me, this passage says that God does not mark time the way man does. Even if it means that God's time is one day to our thousand, if this time ratio applies to our Lord's work in the heavenly sanctuary, that makes it equal to no more than three days so far, correct?
 
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Cliff2

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Eph. 2:8,9
"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

"The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized." {SC 62.1}

"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." {SC 62.2}

Can you all imagine that, Christs character taking the place of this sinner who has been saved by grace.

Fantastic.
 
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