A Question for Trinitarians
- Thread starter edpobre
- Start date
- Status
desaccord. If what you said was true, then there'd really be no point to this forum (General Apologetics, not CF as a whole) at all.
All religions bear a common foundation in the desire to make the world a better place. Even LaVey's Satanism is not exempt from that rule, although the behavior of LaVey Satanists may seem frightfully evil and inexplicable to your religion and mine.
Only through discussion can one arrive at a consensus.
Upvote
0
Originally posted by jukesk9
We CANNOT question God's WISDOM. God REVEALS His PLANS in the PROPER dispensation of times. The prophecies regarding the re-emergence of the TRUE churchof Christ were FULFILLED at the place and time PRECISELY appointed by God.
There is NO verse in the Bible which CLEARLY shows that the apostles taught that Jesus is God. The verses that Trinitarians USE to support this FALSE Trinity doctrine do NOT categorically say that Jesus is God. It is the Trinitarians' INTERPRETATION of these verses that SEEM to make Jesus God.
God is MANIFESTED (made evident) THROUGH the things He has CREATED and THROUGH Jesus by the miracles, wonders and signs that God DID through Christ (Acts 2:22).
Either Thomas was MISTAKEN in addressing Jesus "my God" or Thomas addressed this statement to BOTH Jesus, HIS Lord, or the FATHER, HIS God.
At any rate, Thomas has NO authority to DECLARE who God is. Simply put, Thomas CANNOT over-ride what Jesus TAUGHT in John 8:40 and John 17:3.
BTW, from whom did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Did God talk to Thomas and told him that Jesus is God? Did Jesus TEACH that he is God? Wouldn't you want to verify the reliability of Thomas' source of infornmation? Please show me these verses that show from whom Thomas LEARNED that Jesus is God.
Apostle Paul could NOT have written that Jesus is God. Apostle Paul KNEW that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Paul KNEW that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Apostle Paul wrote that our Lord Jesus Christ HAS a God and FATHER (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3).
God DID miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus (Acts 2:22).
God APPOINTED Christ, the MAN to judge the world in righteousness (Acts 17:31).That's why apostle Paul used God and Christ interchangeably.
God DID miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus (Acts 2:22).
Apostle Paul is saying here that Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3). An IMAGE or FORM of God is NOT the REAL God.
Ed
We CANNOT question God's WISDOM. God REVEALS His PLANS in the PROPER dispensation of times. The prophecies regarding the re-emergence of the TRUE churchof Christ were FULFILLED at the place and time PRECISELY appointed by God.
There is NO verse in the Bible which CLEARLY shows that the apostles taught that Jesus is God. The verses that Trinitarians USE to support this FALSE Trinity doctrine do NOT categorically say that Jesus is God. It is the Trinitarians' INTERPRETATION of these verses that SEEM to make Jesus God.
God is MANIFESTED (made evident) THROUGH the things He has CREATED and THROUGH Jesus by the miracles, wonders and signs that God DID through Christ (Acts 2:22).
Either Thomas was MISTAKEN in addressing Jesus "my God" or Thomas addressed this statement to BOTH Jesus, HIS Lord, or the FATHER, HIS God.
At any rate, Thomas has NO authority to DECLARE who God is. Simply put, Thomas CANNOT over-ride what Jesus TAUGHT in John 8:40 and John 17:3.
BTW, from whom did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Did God talk to Thomas and told him that Jesus is God? Did Jesus TEACH that he is God? Wouldn't you want to verify the reliability of Thomas' source of infornmation? Please show me these verses that show from whom Thomas LEARNED that Jesus is God.
Apostle Paul could NOT have written that Jesus is God. Apostle Paul KNEW that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Paul KNEW that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Apostle Paul wrote that our Lord Jesus Christ HAS a God and FATHER (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3).
God DID miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus (Acts 2:22).
God APPOINTED Christ, the MAN to judge the world in righteousness (Acts 17:31).That's why apostle Paul used God and Christ interchangeably.
God DID miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus (Acts 2:22).
Apostle Paul is saying here that Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3). An IMAGE or FORM of God is NOT the REAL God.
Ed
Upvote
0
The Flesh of Jesus was the image. The Spirit within him Was God himself with holding the same name for who ever sees Jesus sees the Father. And (which was proven before.)
Luke 8
38 Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying,
39 Return to thine own house, and show how great things GOD hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things JESUS had done unto him.
40 And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.
Luke 8
38 Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying,
39 Return to thine own house, and show how great things GOD hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things JESUS had done unto him.
40 And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.
Upvote
0
Jesus is the Father of creation and Born agains, the Son in incarnation, and the Holy Spirit in Nature.
(1 john 2:1)My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
(Colossians 2:9) That in him dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily
(ISAIAH 9:6 )
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(1 john 2:1)My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
(Colossians 2:9) That in him dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily
(ISAIAH 9:6 )
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Upvote
0
jukesk9
Dixie Whistlin' Papist
- Feb 7, 2002
- 4,046
- 83
- 52
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Sorry Ed, but I don't think you refuted the Scripture I posted very well.
We CANNOT question God's WISDOM. God REVEALS His PLANS in the PROPER dispensation of times. The prophecies regarding the re-emergence of the TRUE churchof Christ were FULFILLED at the place and time PRECISELY appointed by God.
So Christ promising He would ALWAYS be with us isn't exactly what He meant? His death and atonement for us wouldn't be applied until 1900?
The verses that Trinitarians USE to support this FALSE Trinity doctrine do NOT categorically say that Jesus is God. It is the Trinitarians' INTERPRETATION of these verses that SEEM to make Jesus God.
The same could be said about your group and its interpretations claiming Jesus is not God.
Either Thomas was MISTAKEN in addressing Jesus "my God" or Thomas addressed this statement to BOTH Jesus, HIS Lord, or the FATHER, HIS God.
That isn't a very strong argument. And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Seems pretty straightforward to me. My Lord AND my God.
Please show me these verses that show from whom Thomas LEARNED that Jesus is God.
Why? Clearly Thomas calls him God. Why wasn't he rebuked by Jesus? Because he understood when Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."
Apostle Paul could NOT have written that Jesus is God.
Well then who wrote, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior, Jesus Christ."?Is there another we can claim wrote Titus? Paul clearly calls Jesus God here.
We CANNOT question God's WISDOM. God REVEALS His PLANS in the PROPER dispensation of times. The prophecies regarding the re-emergence of the TRUE churchof Christ were FULFILLED at the place and time PRECISELY appointed by God.
So Christ promising He would ALWAYS be with us isn't exactly what He meant? His death and atonement for us wouldn't be applied until 1900?
The verses that Trinitarians USE to support this FALSE Trinity doctrine do NOT categorically say that Jesus is God. It is the Trinitarians' INTERPRETATION of these verses that SEEM to make Jesus God.
The same could be said about your group and its interpretations claiming Jesus is not God.
Either Thomas was MISTAKEN in addressing Jesus "my God" or Thomas addressed this statement to BOTH Jesus, HIS Lord, or the FATHER, HIS God.
That isn't a very strong argument. And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Seems pretty straightforward to me. My Lord AND my God.
Please show me these verses that show from whom Thomas LEARNED that Jesus is God.
Why? Clearly Thomas calls him God. Why wasn't he rebuked by Jesus? Because he understood when Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."
Apostle Paul could NOT have written that Jesus is God.
Well then who wrote, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior, Jesus Christ."?Is there another we can claim wrote Titus? Paul clearly calls Jesus God here.
Upvote
0
Not really Ed,
Lets look at Psalm 50:3-6
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God [is] judge himself
Ed, is it true of Iglesia Ni Cristo that only ministers of the church are allowed to interpret Scripture ?
Lets look at Psalm 50:3-6
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God [is] judge himself
Ed, is it true of Iglesia Ni Cristo that only ministers of the church are allowed to interpret Scripture ?
Upvote
0
Originally posted by jukesk9
Of course I expect you to say that. What can I say? I CANNOT force you to believe the word of God.
I didn't say that, did I? This was what I replied to:
But going back to your post, Christ's PROMISE was to his DISCIPLES. And that PROMISE holds TRUE to all his DISCIPLES who DIED before and during the APOSTASY or "falling away" from the faith. That PROMISE also holds TRUE to all those who BECAME his DISCIPLES by virtue of the RE-EMERGENCE of the TRUE Church of Christ in the far east THROUGH the preaching function of God's MESSENGER in these last days.
This is not to inflame, belittle or insult you my friend but, are you a DISCIPLE of Christ?
Be specific my friend. Are you referring to John 8:40 and John 17:3? Do you interpret these verses differently?
Was Thomas authorized to OVER-RIDE or NEGATE what Jesus TAUGHT? Who GAVE Thomas such authority?
You have NOT answered my question my friend. I repeat, from whom did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Did God tell Thomas that Jesus is God? Did Jesus teach Thomas that he is God?
You say that Thomas understood when Jesus said "I and the Father are one." That PROVES that Thomas MISTAKENLY thought Jesus is God. Like Trinitarians of today, it was Thomas' TWISTED interpretation of Jesus' statement that made him THINK that Jesus is God.
Apostle Paul KNEW that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Paul also KNEW that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16). Moreover, apostle Paul was CERTAIN that for them, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father. Then he could NOT have written Titus that Jesus is his "God and savior."
The version you are reading Titus 2:13 from makes it seem like they are awaiting the "glorious appearing" OF our God and savior Jesus Christ.
The Today's English Version (TEV), however, renders it DIFFERENTLY. What they are awaiting to appear is the "glory OF our God and savior Jesus Christ.
The TEV makes more sense because Jesus is the glory of God and Jesus will come with his own glory. Thus, what they are waiting to appear is the glory OF our God (Jesus is God's glory) and the glory OF Jesus himself.
Ed
Of course I expect you to say that. What can I say? I CANNOT force you to believe the word of God.
I didn't say that, did I? This was what I replied to:
But going back to your post, Christ's PROMISE was to his DISCIPLES. And that PROMISE holds TRUE to all his DISCIPLES who DIED before and during the APOSTASY or "falling away" from the faith. That PROMISE also holds TRUE to all those who BECAME his DISCIPLES by virtue of the RE-EMERGENCE of the TRUE Church of Christ in the far east THROUGH the preaching function of God's MESSENGER in these last days.
This is not to inflame, belittle or insult you my friend but, are you a DISCIPLE of Christ?
Be specific my friend. Are you referring to John 8:40 and John 17:3? Do you interpret these verses differently?
Was Thomas authorized to OVER-RIDE or NEGATE what Jesus TAUGHT? Who GAVE Thomas such authority?
You have NOT answered my question my friend. I repeat, from whom did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Did God tell Thomas that Jesus is God? Did Jesus teach Thomas that he is God?
You say that Thomas understood when Jesus said "I and the Father are one." That PROVES that Thomas MISTAKENLY thought Jesus is God. Like Trinitarians of today, it was Thomas' TWISTED interpretation of Jesus' statement that made him THINK that Jesus is God.
Apostle Paul KNEW that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Apostle Paul also KNEW that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16). Moreover, apostle Paul was CERTAIN that for them, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father. Then he could NOT have written Titus that Jesus is his "God and savior."
The version you are reading Titus 2:13 from makes it seem like they are awaiting the "glorious appearing" OF our God and savior Jesus Christ.
The Today's English Version (TEV), however, renders it DIFFERENTLY. What they are awaiting to appear is the "glory OF our God and savior Jesus Christ.
The TEV makes more sense because Jesus is the glory of God and Jesus will come with his own glory. Thus, what they are waiting to appear is the glory OF our God (Jesus is God's glory) and the glory OF Jesus himself.
Ed
Upvote
0
Originally posted by Phoenix
Jesus SAID: "For the Father judges no one, but has committed ALL judgment to the Son" (John 5:22). And apostle Paul teaches the same: "because He has appointed a day on which He will JUDGE the world in righteousness by the MAN whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by RAISING him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).
Everything that ministers of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO teach today were TAUGHT to them by God's MESSENGER in these last days, Bro. Felix Y. Manalo. Ministers themselves do NOT attempt to interpret Scripture (although they are not prohibited to do so) in order to maintain UNITY of FAITH.
If necessary, the Executive Minister, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and with the assistance of the Executive Council interprets Scripture that flows down to members THROUGH Bible studies conducted by ministers and during worship services.
Ed
Jesus SAID: "For the Father judges no one, but has committed ALL judgment to the Son" (John 5:22). And apostle Paul teaches the same: "because He has appointed a day on which He will JUDGE the world in righteousness by the MAN whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by RAISING him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).
Everything that ministers of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO teach today were TAUGHT to them by God's MESSENGER in these last days, Bro. Felix Y. Manalo. Ministers themselves do NOT attempt to interpret Scripture (although they are not prohibited to do so) in order to maintain UNITY of FAITH.
If necessary, the Executive Minister, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and with the assistance of the Executive Council interprets Scripture that flows down to members THROUGH Bible studies conducted by ministers and during worship services.
Ed
Upvote
0
jukesk9
Dixie Whistlin' Papist
- Feb 7, 2002
- 4,046
- 83
- 52
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
This is my last reply since we're getting nowhere (and no you haven't inflamed, insulted, or belittled me). Yes, I am a disciple of Christ. Deeply committed to Him.
It doesn't matter if the Bible doesn't have a verse that shows whether or not Jesus told Thomas He was God. Thomas called Him God and was not rebuked for doing so. That is an example of an Apostle calling Jesus God.
Everything that ministers of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO teach today were TAUGHT to them by God's MESSENGER in these last days, Bro. Felix Y. Manalo. Ministers themselves do NOT attempt to interpret Scripture (although they are not prohibited to do so) in order to maintain UNITY of FAITH.
If necessary, the Executive Minister, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and with the assistance of the Executive Council interprets Scripture that flows down to members THROUGH Bible studies conducted by ministers and during worship services.
Ed
And I can counter with everything that the Catholic Church professes was passed down to Her by the Apostles, who received those teachings from Christ Jesus, preserved from error by the Holy Spirit. Knowing that the Church interprets Scripture without error, She confidently teaches the doctrine of the Most Holy Trinity. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
May the love and fellowship of God be with you, Ed.
It doesn't matter if the Bible doesn't have a verse that shows whether or not Jesus told Thomas He was God. Thomas called Him God and was not rebuked for doing so. That is an example of an Apostle calling Jesus God.
Everything that ministers of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO teach today were TAUGHT to them by God's MESSENGER in these last days, Bro. Felix Y. Manalo. Ministers themselves do NOT attempt to interpret Scripture (although they are not prohibited to do so) in order to maintain UNITY of FAITH.
If necessary, the Executive Minister, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and with the assistance of the Executive Council interprets Scripture that flows down to members THROUGH Bible studies conducted by ministers and during worship services.
Ed
And I can counter with everything that the Catholic Church professes was passed down to Her by the Apostles, who received those teachings from Christ Jesus, preserved from error by the Holy Spirit. Knowing that the Church interprets Scripture without error, She confidently teaches the doctrine of the Most Holy Trinity. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
May the love and fellowship of God be with you, Ed.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Originally posted by jukesk9
I wonder how you can say with a straight face that you are a DISCIPLE of Christ and you are deeply COMMITTED to him when you DON'T even believe what he says?
Christ says he is a MAN (John 8:40), yet you say he is God. Christ says the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 17:3), yet you make Jesus a FALSE God.
I'm sure you did NOT learn the meaning of DISCIPLE and COMMITMENT from the Bible.
Just because Jesus did NOT rebuke Thomas when he said "my Lord and my God" does NOT mean that Thomas was correct in calling Jesus God.
Thomas was NOT the messenger sent FROM God as recorded in John 3:16. Thomas was not the begotten son who declared God as recorded in John 1:18. Thomas was NOT the Son of God who CAME and GAVE us understanding as recorded in 1 John 5:20.
Why do you BELIEVE Thomas who said "my God" to Jesus INSTEAD of BELIEVING Jesus who said, "ME a MAN" (John 8:40) and declared that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?
Your BELIEF in what Thomas said OVER what Jesus said BELIES your discipleship and commitment to Christ. That you are a DISCIPLE of Thomas is nearer to the truth, I might say. And you are fooling no one but yourself.
Ed
I wonder how you can say with a straight face that you are a DISCIPLE of Christ and you are deeply COMMITTED to him when you DON'T even believe what he says?
Christ says he is a MAN (John 8:40), yet you say he is God. Christ says the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 17:3), yet you make Jesus a FALSE God.
I'm sure you did NOT learn the meaning of DISCIPLE and COMMITMENT from the Bible.
Just because Jesus did NOT rebuke Thomas when he said "my Lord and my God" does NOT mean that Thomas was correct in calling Jesus God.
Thomas was NOT the messenger sent FROM God as recorded in John 3:16. Thomas was not the begotten son who declared God as recorded in John 1:18. Thomas was NOT the Son of God who CAME and GAVE us understanding as recorded in 1 John 5:20.
Why do you BELIEVE Thomas who said "my God" to Jesus INSTEAD of BELIEVING Jesus who said, "ME a MAN" (John 8:40) and declared that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?
Your BELIEF in what Thomas said OVER what Jesus said BELIES your discipleship and commitment to Christ. That you are a DISCIPLE of Thomas is nearer to the truth, I might say. And you are fooling no one but yourself.
Ed
Upvote
0
OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Posted by Ed
Either Thomas was MISTAKEN in addressing Jesus "my God" or Thomas addressed this statement to BOTH Jesus, HIS Lord, or the FATHER, HIS God.
First, you are on this forum claiming to represent the only true church with the only true doctrine. This proves you dont know what you are talking about. Which one is right? It cannot be both! Was Thomas mistaken or was he talking to the Father? Prove to us from the original Greek that either one of these wild guesses is correct. Translate this passage and parse the words, explain how they prove your doctrine correct.
John 20:28kai apekriqh o qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou
Where was Jesus when all of this was going on? Thomas had just touched His side, He was standing less than two feet (.60 meters) from Thomas. He spoke to Thomas immediately before and immediately after Thomas said, My Lord and My God. How could Thomas be speaking to the Father? The scripture tells us Thomas said to Him (Jesus), one person, not to them, more than one person! This has been explained, at least, once before to Ed, but he still keeps posting this same false explanation. If Thomas was mistaken then Jesus would have corrected Him, on the spot, as He did when Peter mistakenly said that Jesus would not be crucified (Matt 16:23).
But Jesus did not correct Thomas instead He blessed him.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
What did Thomas believe? Thomas believed what he said to Jesus, My Lord and My God. And for 2000 years that is what the church, those who have not physically seen Jesus, has believed, that Jesus is Lord and God, as verified by many, many other scriptures.
At any rate, Thomas has NO authority to DECLARE who God is. Simply put, Thomas CANNOT over-ride what Jesus TAUGHT in John 8:40 and John 17:3.
Simply put, Thomas had all the authority he needed standing less that two feet from him. If Thomas were wrong, Jesus would have corrected him there and then, instead of blessing him. If Thomas was overriding what Jesus said in John 8:40 and John 17:3, then Jesus Himself would have said so.
Jesus chased all the money changers out of the temple, because what they were doing was wrong. Would He let a disciple stand right in front of Him and call Him God, without saying anything, if he was wrong? Would Jesus let Thomas and the church believe that He was God for 2000 years without saying something?
The only two verses, which matter, in the Iglesias ni Manalo are John 8:40 and John 17:3.. Regardless how many other verses in the Bible are cited Ed repeats these two verses, over and over again. No other verses in the Bible mean anything, Eds doctrine is based on these two verses.
BTW, from whom did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Did God talk to Thomas and told him that Jesus is God? Did Jesus TEACH that he is God? Wouldn't you want to verify the reliability of Thomas' source of infornmation? Please show me these verses that show from whom Thomas LEARNED that Jesus is God.
Thomas learned that Jesus was God in the same way that Peter learned that Jesus was the Son of the Living God (Mat 16:16). Jesus said, after the fact, that God had revealed it to Peter but there is no scripture telling us when and how.
In all these verses, and many others, Jesus is correctly identified as Son of God, lamb of God, Savior, etc., by someone who does not know Him, and the scriptures never say how they knew.
So according to your doctrine we cannot accept these verse as true either.
The verse that tells us Thomas was correct when he called Jesus, My Lord and My God. is;
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus affirming that Thomas addressing Him as Lord and God is correct by blessing him and those who believe, although they have not physically seen the risen Jesus.
The reliability of Thomas information is the fact that Jesus was standing right in front of Thomas and did not correct what he said.
The Tetragrammaton, YHWH (יהוה), used of Jesus, twice in N.T., Rom 10:9, and Act 2:21.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him (יהוה, Isaiah 28:6) shall not be ashamed.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (יהוה, Joel 2:32.) shall be saved.
Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (יהוה, Joel 2:32,) shall be saved.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (יהוה) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (יהוה) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (יהוה) shall call.
Where does the scripture Call Jesus, God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Either Thomas was MISTAKEN in addressing Jesus "my God" or Thomas addressed this statement to BOTH Jesus, HIS Lord, or the FATHER, HIS God.
First, you are on this forum claiming to represent the only true church with the only true doctrine. This proves you dont know what you are talking about. Which one is right? It cannot be both! Was Thomas mistaken or was he talking to the Father? Prove to us from the original Greek that either one of these wild guesses is correct. Translate this passage and parse the words, explain how they prove your doctrine correct.
John 20:28kai apekriqh o qwmaV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou
Where was Jesus when all of this was going on? Thomas had just touched His side, He was standing less than two feet (.60 meters) from Thomas. He spoke to Thomas immediately before and immediately after Thomas said, My Lord and My God. How could Thomas be speaking to the Father? The scripture tells us Thomas said to Him (Jesus), one person, not to them, more than one person! This has been explained, at least, once before to Ed, but he still keeps posting this same false explanation. If Thomas was mistaken then Jesus would have corrected Him, on the spot, as He did when Peter mistakenly said that Jesus would not be crucified (Matt 16:23).
But Jesus did not correct Thomas instead He blessed him.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
What did Thomas believe? Thomas believed what he said to Jesus, My Lord and My God. And for 2000 years that is what the church, those who have not physically seen Jesus, has believed, that Jesus is Lord and God, as verified by many, many other scriptures.
At any rate, Thomas has NO authority to DECLARE who God is. Simply put, Thomas CANNOT over-ride what Jesus TAUGHT in John 8:40 and John 17:3.
Simply put, Thomas had all the authority he needed standing less that two feet from him. If Thomas were wrong, Jesus would have corrected him there and then, instead of blessing him. If Thomas was overriding what Jesus said in John 8:40 and John 17:3, then Jesus Himself would have said so.
Jesus chased all the money changers out of the temple, because what they were doing was wrong. Would He let a disciple stand right in front of Him and call Him God, without saying anything, if he was wrong? Would Jesus let Thomas and the church believe that He was God for 2000 years without saying something?
The only two verses, which matter, in the Iglesias ni Manalo are John 8:40 and John 17:3.. Regardless how many other verses in the Bible are cited Ed repeats these two verses, over and over again. No other verses in the Bible mean anything, Eds doctrine is based on these two verses.
BTW, from whom did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Did God talk to Thomas and told him that Jesus is God? Did Jesus TEACH that he is God? Wouldn't you want to verify the reliability of Thomas' source of infornmation? Please show me these verses that show from whom Thomas LEARNED that Jesus is God.
Thomas learned that Jesus was God in the same way that Peter learned that Jesus was the Son of the Living God (Mat 16:16). Jesus said, after the fact, that God had revealed it to Peter but there is no scripture telling us when and how.
- Where are the verses that tell us who revealed that the infant Jesus was the Savior to Anna (Luke 2:38) and Simeon (Luke 2:34)?
- Where are the verses which told John the Baptizer that Jesus was the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?
- Who told the demons that Jesus was the Son of God, Matthew 8:29?
- Who told the disciples that Jesus was the Son of God, Matthew 14:33?
- Who told the Roman Centurion that Jesus was the Son of God, Matthew 27:54?
- Who told the unclean spirits that Jesus was the Son of God, Mark 3:11?
- Who told the exorcized devils that Jesus was the Son of God, Luke 4:41?
- Who told the Ethiopian that Jesus was the Son of God, Acts 8:37?
In all these verses, and many others, Jesus is correctly identified as Son of God, lamb of God, Savior, etc., by someone who does not know Him, and the scriptures never say how they knew.
So according to your doctrine we cannot accept these verse as true either.
The verse that tells us Thomas was correct when he called Jesus, My Lord and My God. is;
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus affirming that Thomas addressing Him as Lord and God is correct by blessing him and those who believe, although they have not physically seen the risen Jesus.
The reliability of Thomas information is the fact that Jesus was standing right in front of Thomas and did not correct what he said.
The Tetragrammaton, YHWH (יהוה), used of Jesus, twice in N.T., Rom 10:9, and Act 2:21.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him (יהוה, Isaiah 28:6) shall not be ashamed.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (יהוה, Joel 2:32.) shall be saved.
Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (יהוה, Joel 2:32,) shall be saved.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (יהוה) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (יהוה) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (יהוה) shall call.
Where does the scripture Call Jesus, God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Upvote
0
OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
When anyone associated with the Iglesias ni Manalo, or any other anti-Christian, anti-Trinitarian group can approach this passage with 47 years of Greek scholarship comparable to A. T. Robertson, quoted above, then their (mis)translations might have some degree of credibility.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I have seen Antis try to blow this verse off with some vague, "It wasnt really God it was only a manifestation, blah, blah, blah." But notice that conjunction and, God was manifest in the flesh and (God was) justified in the spirit, (God was) seen of angels, (God was) preached unto the Gentiles, (God was) believed on in the world, (God was) received up into glory.
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7, The Trinity in the N.T..
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jesus Christ, this is the true God and eternal life.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
The Greek rule of grammar, Sharps Rule, states,
"When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, if the article ho or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.
In 2 Pet 1:1 and Titus 2:13, God has the definite article but Savior does not. Therefore, Peter and Paul are both calling Jesus, God and Savior!
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Existing in the form of God, equal with God. The only one equal with God, is God. In Isaiah, God said there was no God beside Him, before Him or after Him. Isaiah 44:6, 44:8, 45:5, 45:21
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. {righteousness: Gr. rightness, or, straightness}
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.[/b]
Twice in this passage God calls the Son, God.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesushave sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Who brings the "Reward, see Isaiah 40:10, 62:11. Who is the First and last, see Isaiah 44:6, 48:12, below.
Note, who is speaking in Rev 22:12-16, and calls Himself the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, I Jesus!
Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy (ישועה/Yeshua) salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Note, in this passage God speaks of the one coming, with his reward, in the third person, distinct from Himself. ישועה/Yeshua/salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him,
Note, ישועה/Yeshua, is also the Hebrew name of Jesus.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Note, the LORD speaking, two distinct personalities, one, יהוה/YHWH the king of Israel and two, a separate, His redeemer, יהוה/YHWH Tzabaoth/hosts.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am (ego eimi, LXX) he; I am (ego eimi, LXX) the first, I also am the last.
In Isaiah, God says He is the first and the last.In Revelation Jesus said He is the first and last. How many first and last are there?
Upvote
0
Originally posted by TScott
I invite you to post your comments at the the "Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies" thread at the Spirituality, Religion & Ethics Forum. I don't mind if you copy and paste from the above link. We just don't have too much time to jump from one website to another.
Ed
I invite you to post your comments at the the "Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies" thread at the Spirituality, Religion & Ethics Forum. I don't mind if you copy and paste from the above link. We just don't have too much time to jump from one website to another.
Ed
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Originally posted by OldShepherd
Acts 17:31 - "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the MAN whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by RAISING him from the dead.
1 Tim. 2:5 - "For there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."
1 Cor. 8:6 (TEV)- "yet there is for US ONLY ONE God, the FATHER, who is the CREATOR of ALL things and for whom we live; and there is ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ THROUGH whom ALL things were CREATED and THROUGH whom we live.
Eph. 1:3 - "Blessed be the GOD and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."
Apostle Paul is the author of these verses including 1 Tim. 3:16 which is used by Trinitarians to prove that Jesus is God. Is 1 Tim. 3:16 about Jesus being God? No! On the other hand, the other verses CLEARLY show that Jesus is a MAN who HAS a God and a Father.
This is in line with what Jesus himself TAUGHT:
1) he is a MAN (John 8:40); and
2) the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
Some vrsions of the Bible say in their footnote to this verse that this verse is spurious. Others render it as "and these three agree." At any rate, even this version does NOT say that they are "ONE God." The verse simply says: "these three are ONE." The word "God" after "ONE" is an ADDITION which violates God's COMMAND not to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word (Deut. 12:32).
If Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life, WHERE is HIS Son, Jesus Christ?
Why would apostle Peter write that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22) who HAS a God and FATHER (1 Peter 1:3) if Peter THOUGHT that Jesus is God? This is the handiwork of Trinitarian translators!
Why would apostle Paul write that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) who HAS a God and FATHER (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3) if Paul THOUGHT that Jesus is God? This is the handiwork of Trinitarian translators!
As I posted above, this is the handiwork of Trinitarian translators who OMITTED the word "OF" before "our savior" to make it appear that Jesus is "God AND savior." But this does NOT work because it would make apostles Peter and Paul look like LIARS!
This is apostle Paul's FIGURATIVE description of the HUMILITY of Jesus in that, DESPITE his awesome power and authority, he remained HUMBLE and OBEDIENT to the point of death.
Please note that apostle Paul wrote in Col. 1:15 that Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISBLE God (cf. 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 6:16). An IMAGE is NOT the real thing. An INVISIBLE God CANNOT be seen. Jesus was SEEN by people, especially by his disciples.
Heb. 1:8 was lifted from a mistranslated version of Psalm 45:6. Heb. 1:9 says that the one mentioned in Heb. 1:8 has a God who anoints him with oil ABOVE his FELLOWS. If Heb. 1:8 were ACCURATELY translated, how many Gods are there?
One - the God who anoints the God of Heb. 1:8;
Two - the God who is anointed by the first God;
Three to INFINITY - the Heb. 1:8 God's FELLOWS whose number no one knows.
It is Jesus who is speaking here. Take note of what he says in Rev. 22:14: "Blessed are they that do [colr=blue]HIS[/color] commandments..." Whose commandments is Jesus referring to? Jesus is referring to "HIM who sat on the throne" (Rev. 21:5) who ALSO said: "...I am the Alpha nd the Omega, the Beginning and the End..." (Rev. 21:6).
Rev. 22:12 -14 is Jesus speaking. He is coming with his reward because he has been appointed by God to judge the world (Acts 17:31).
Ed[/b]
Acts 17:31 - "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the MAN whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by RAISING him from the dead.
1 Tim. 2:5 - "For there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."
1 Cor. 8:6 (TEV)- "yet there is for US ONLY ONE God, the FATHER, who is the CREATOR of ALL things and for whom we live; and there is ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ THROUGH whom ALL things were CREATED and THROUGH whom we live.
Eph. 1:3 - "Blessed be the GOD and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."
Apostle Paul is the author of these verses including 1 Tim. 3:16 which is used by Trinitarians to prove that Jesus is God. Is 1 Tim. 3:16 about Jesus being God? No! On the other hand, the other verses CLEARLY show that Jesus is a MAN who HAS a God and a Father.
This is in line with what Jesus himself TAUGHT:
1) he is a MAN (John 8:40); and
2) the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
Some vrsions of the Bible say in their footnote to this verse that this verse is spurious. Others render it as "and these three agree." At any rate, even this version does NOT say that they are "ONE God." The verse simply says: "these three are ONE." The word "God" after "ONE" is an ADDITION which violates God's COMMAND not to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word (Deut. 12:32).
If Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life, WHERE is HIS Son, Jesus Christ?
Why would apostle Peter write that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22) who HAS a God and FATHER (1 Peter 1:3) if Peter THOUGHT that Jesus is God? This is the handiwork of Trinitarian translators!
Why would apostle Paul write that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) who HAS a God and FATHER (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3) if Paul THOUGHT that Jesus is God? This is the handiwork of Trinitarian translators!
As I posted above, this is the handiwork of Trinitarian translators who OMITTED the word "OF" before "our savior" to make it appear that Jesus is "God AND savior." But this does NOT work because it would make apostles Peter and Paul look like LIARS!
This is apostle Paul's FIGURATIVE description of the HUMILITY of Jesus in that, DESPITE his awesome power and authority, he remained HUMBLE and OBEDIENT to the point of death.
Please note that apostle Paul wrote in Col. 1:15 that Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISBLE God (cf. 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 6:16). An IMAGE is NOT the real thing. An INVISIBLE God CANNOT be seen. Jesus was SEEN by people, especially by his disciples.
Heb. 1:8 was lifted from a mistranslated version of Psalm 45:6. Heb. 1:9 says that the one mentioned in Heb. 1:8 has a God who anoints him with oil ABOVE his FELLOWS. If Heb. 1:8 were ACCURATELY translated, how many Gods are there?
One - the God who anoints the God of Heb. 1:8;
Two - the God who is anointed by the first God;
Three to INFINITY - the Heb. 1:8 God's FELLOWS whose number no one knows.
It is Jesus who is speaking here. Take note of what he says in Rev. 22:14: "Blessed are they that do [colr=blue]HIS[/color] commandments..." Whose commandments is Jesus referring to? Jesus is referring to "HIM who sat on the throne" (Rev. 21:5) who ALSO said: "...I am the Alpha nd the Omega, the Beginning and the End..." (Rev. 21:6).
Rev. 22:12 -14 is Jesus speaking. He is coming with his reward because he has been appointed by God to judge the world (Acts 17:31).
Ed[/b]
Upvote
0
OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Is 1 Tim. 3:16 about Jesus being God? No! Whatever you might think 1 Tim. 3:16 is about, Paul very clearly refers to Jesus as God. Since you have trouble seeing any verses except John 8:40 and 17:3, I have made the font larger to help your vision problems.
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, (God was) justified in the Spirit, (God was) seen of angels, (God was) preached unto the Gentiles, (God was) believed on in the world, (God was) received up into glory.
Who is the only one all of these fit, whom Paul calls God?
How do you know your understanding of John is correct and everything else a mistranslation? Jesus did not write John 8:40 and 17:3, Himself, it was written by the apostle John!
Some versions say? Why cant you show us a single Bible version, one translation, which totally supports your church doctrine? Why are you unable to quote one single, Iglesias ni Manalo, so-called true church, Hebrew/Greek scholar who correctly (according to you) translates the scriptures?
You dont have the slightest idea what the original languages say. Instead of basing your doctrine on the Word of God, you must desperately pick and choose different versions, for different verses, wherever you can find something that appears to agree with what you already believe.
This is false!. Verse eight, not seven, says the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in (that) one.
Talking around and around in circles. One, without a predicate, is one! These three are One what? 1 John 5:7, doesnt say the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are separate parts of something, but whatever the Father is, the Word and Holy Spirit are one, with/in/through/by/for, the Father. If they are not a complete and total one, in every respect, then they are not one. So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one what? See 1 John 5:9, below.
1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
this, what was just written, i.e., verses 7 and 8, is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Why this and why that. Instead of arguing with the Bible because many verses contradict your doctrine, prove, from the Bible, that Acts 2:22 and 1 Peter 1:3 mean what you say, and, 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, written by the same disciples, are wrong as you claim?
Peter wrote, Peter thought, etc. etc. etc. Jesus said, I Am the Son of Man and I Am the Son of God. Does Jesus being Son of Man prevent Him from also being Son of God? How can Jesus be both at the same time?
Does Jesus being the High Priest prevent Him from being the sacrifice also? You need more that repeating the same two verses over and over again, if Jesus can be Son of Man and Son of God then God can be Father and man, or anything else, at the same time, which is exactly what Trinitarians believe.
Here are 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, in the original Greek, translate and prove that Peter and Paul did not say God and savior, Jesus Christ. All you have to do is find one verse, anywhere, in the N.T. which uses this same grammatical construction, i.e., the definite article + a noun + the copulative kai/and + another noun (without the definite article), in which both nouns do not refer to the same person or thing.
Titus 2:13 prosdecomenoi thn makarian elpida kai epifaneian thn doxhV tou megalou qeou kai swthroV hmwn ihsou cristou
2 Peter 1:1 sumewn petroV douloV kai apostoloV ihsou cristou toiV isotimon hmin lacousin pistin en dikaiosunh tou qeou hmwn kai swthroV ihsou cristou.
Why this and why that. This is the handiwork of false prophets and false teachers who cannot read the language that Paul actually wrote. Still arguing with the Bible because the original languages, doesnt support your doctrine. I dont know what Paul or Peter thought, and neither do you, but I do know that, in the original Greek, both Paul or Peter, called Jesus, God and savior.
Without definite proof, your constant accusation Trinitarian translators. is absolutely meaningless. Anyone can make accusations. If your cult is the true church, it should be easy to produce clear and convincing proof that something, anything, in the Bible is mistranslated by Trinitarian translators
Trinitarian translators who OMITTED the word "OF" before "our saviorblah, blah, blah. . ." This statement is patently false. The problem is you, and all your false teachers and false prophets, do not know what you are talking about. There is no single word for of in the N.T.! The original Greek of both, Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1, is shown above, please show us where the word OF appears in these verses.
More empty, unproven, accusations of false Trinitarian translators. To express the concept, of something, for example, Son of God, the noun is written with the genitive case ending. For the above passages to be translated and of our Savior, it would have to be written hmwn kai swthrou (umon kai soterou) not hmwn kai swthroV (umon kai soteros), as it is.
The words "FIGURATIVE" and "REMAINED" is an ADDITION which violates God's COMMAND not to ADD to nor SUBTRACT from His word (Deut. 12:32).
According to your doctrine Jesus was only a man. What awesome power and authority does a man have?
Philippians 2:5 clearly shows that 2:6 is not figurative. In verses 1-4 Paul has told the Philippians that although they are equal, just as Jesus is equal to God, they are to act as if others are superior to them, then vs. 5, Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: They are to have the same mind as Jesus, this is meaningless if Jesus was not actually equal with God as they were equal to one another.
If vs. 6 is figurative, then vss 1 through 5, and the next two verses 7 and 8, no reputation, form of a servant, made in the likeness of men, humbled himself, and became obedient, must also be figurative.
Philp 2:6 Who, being (existing) in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
There is absolutely nothing in this passage to indicate that Paul is speaking figuratively in vs. 6 and literally in vss. 7 and 8. You have distorted and twisted the entire passage. It says Jesus existed in the form of God, equal with God, but He made Himself became obedient, and humbled Himself not he remained humble, etc.
Vs. 7 begins with the word but which contrasts Jesus, as described in vs. 6, form of God, equal with God distinct from vs. 7, form of a servant, likeness of men.
Upvote
0
OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
============<Quote>============
A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament.
{Being} (\huparchôn\). Rather, "existing," present active participle of \huparchô In the form of God (\en morphêi theou\). \Morphê\ means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.
{A prize} (\harpagmon\). Predicate accusative with \hêgêsato Originally words in mos\ signified the act, not the result (ma\). The few examples of \harpagmos\ (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to \harpagma\, like \baptismos\ and \baptisma That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery").
{To be on an equality with God} (\to einai isa theoi\). Accusative articular infinitive object of \hêgêsato\, "the being equal with God" (associative instrumental case \theôi\ after \isa\). \Isa\ is adverbial use of neuter plural with \einai\ as in #Re 21:16.
===============================
You can claim false Trinitarian translators, until you keyboard falls apart, but that is not proof. If you want to convince anyone, other than you own church members, search any Greek language resource, anywhere, any website, on the entire Internet, especially classical Greek websites, and find any Greek language resource which supports you. Classical Greek covered the period from about 600 BC until 200 AD, and I am certain that the Greek poets and Philosophers, hundreds of years before Christ, were not defending a Christian Trinity.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
An INVISIBLE God CANNOT be seen. According to Ed, but Jesus said;
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
He has seen the father. he which is of God, Jesus, whom heretics say is only a man.[/color]
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Henceforth, i.e. from now on, you have seen Him, i.e. the Father.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
Those who have seen Jesus, have seen the Father. Notice Jesus does not say an image, shadow, etc, but they have seen the Father.
John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
they have. . . seen. . .my Father The teaching of the Iglesias ni Manalo is based on one or two twisted, out-of-context, verses. In the above verses, all written by John, Jesus very clearly states that God, the Father, has been seen! Who is right, Jesus or Ed Pobre and his false church, Iglesias ni Manalo?
Strongs 3353 metocoV metochos met-okh-os
from 3348; TDNT - 2:830,286; adj
AV - partaker 4, partner 1, fellow 1; 6
1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Jesus said, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: and Hebrews 1:8,9, very clearly calls the Son, God, twice. The only thing which will prove Hebrews, chapter one, wrong, is a knowledgeable exegesis of the original languages. Arguing what other verses say or do not say, does not prove anything about Heb 1:8,9.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he (God) saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Anybody can claim the Bible is mistranslated, I have asked several times, produce the correct translation based on the Hebrew and Greek texts. The Hebrew and Greek texts and the language resources, concordances, lexicons, etc., are all available online. Instead of posting empty, unproven, accusations, prove them! There is only one reason you dont!
Here is Hebrew 1:8, in the original Greek. If the Iglesias ni Manalo is the only true church, as you claim, then somebody, in that church, should be able to correctly translate this verse, word for word, instead of a bunch of irrational, irrelevant arguments, over and over again.
Heb 1:8 proV de ton uion o qronoV sou o qeoV eiV ton aiwna tou aiwnoV rabdoV euquthtoV h rabdoV thV basileiaV sou
Heb 1:8 pros de ton uion o thronos sou o theos eis ton aiona tou aionos rabdos euthuteitos e rabdos tes basileias sou
God said in Isaiah that He is the first and the last and before Him, after Him, and beside Him there is no God. Jesus said He is the first and last. How many first and last are there? Who is right Ed or the Bible?
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Jesus is set down with the Father in His (the Fathers) throne.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
But there is only one, on the one throne.
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
God sits on the one throne.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne.
But the lamb is also in the midst of the one throne.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,
One sits on the one throne.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
But the one throne is the throne of God and the lamb.
A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament.
{Being} (\huparchôn\). Rather, "existing," present active participle of \huparchô In the form of God (\en morphêi theou\). \Morphê\ means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.
{A prize} (\harpagmon\). Predicate accusative with \hêgêsato Originally words in mos\ signified the act, not the result (ma\). The few examples of \harpagmos\ (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to \harpagma\, like \baptismos\ and \baptisma That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery").
{To be on an equality with God} (\to einai isa theoi\). Accusative articular infinitive object of \hêgêsato\, "the being equal with God" (associative instrumental case \theôi\ after \isa\). \Isa\ is adverbial use of neuter plural with \einai\ as in #Re 21:16.
===============================
You can claim false Trinitarian translators, until you keyboard falls apart, but that is not proof. If you want to convince anyone, other than you own church members, search any Greek language resource, anywhere, any website, on the entire Internet, especially classical Greek websites, and find any Greek language resource which supports you. Classical Greek covered the period from about 600 BC until 200 AD, and I am certain that the Greek poets and Philosophers, hundreds of years before Christ, were not defending a Christian Trinity.
And please note, as with all heresies, you emphasize this one proof text and totally ignore the rest of the Bible, such as, John 1:1, the Word was God and Philip 2:6, Jesus existed in the morfh of and was equal with God, and several other passages, John 6:46, 14:7,,9, 15:24, Heb 1:8, 1 Tim 3:16, Rev 22:13, listed below. For example, Heb 1:3, Jesus is the express image of Gods person.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
An INVISIBLE God CANNOT be seen. According to Ed, but Jesus said;
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
He has seen the father. he which is of God, Jesus, whom heretics say is only a man.[/color]
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Henceforth, i.e. from now on, you have seen Him, i.e. the Father.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
Those who have seen Jesus, have seen the Father. Notice Jesus does not say an image, shadow, etc, but they have seen the Father.
John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
they have. . . seen. . .my Father The teaching of the Iglesias ni Manalo is based on one or two twisted, out-of-context, verses. In the above verses, all written by John, Jesus very clearly states that God, the Father, has been seen! Who is right, Jesus or Ed Pobre and his false church, Iglesias ni Manalo?
Totally false, as usual! The word translated fellows, metochos, means co-worker, companion, it does not require them to be equals. Jesus had twelve metochos/co-workers. Also, all believers are called metochos, in Heb 1:9, 3:1,14, 6:4, & 12:8. Also read the original Hebrew of Psalm 45. This is why it is necessary for you to use several versions of the Bible, such as TEV and Goodspeed, etc., because the original languages and no single translation supports your false teachings.
Strongs 3353 metocoV metochos met-okh-os
from 3348; TDNT - 2:830,286; adj
AV - partaker 4, partner 1, fellow 1; 6
1) sharing in, partaking
2) a partner (in a work, office, dignity)
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Jesus said, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: and Hebrews 1:8,9, very clearly calls the Son, God, twice. The only thing which will prove Hebrews, chapter one, wrong, is a knowledgeable exegesis of the original languages. Arguing what other verses say or do not say, does not prove anything about Heb 1:8,9.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he (God) saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Anybody can claim the Bible is mistranslated, I have asked several times, produce the correct translation based on the Hebrew and Greek texts. The Hebrew and Greek texts and the language resources, concordances, lexicons, etc., are all available online. Instead of posting empty, unproven, accusations, prove them! There is only one reason you dont!
Here is Hebrew 1:8, in the original Greek. If the Iglesias ni Manalo is the only true church, as you claim, then somebody, in that church, should be able to correctly translate this verse, word for word, instead of a bunch of irrational, irrelevant arguments, over and over again.
Heb 1:8 proV de ton uion o qronoV sou o qeoV eiV ton aiwna tou aiwnoV rabdoV euquthtoV h rabdoV thV basileiaV sou
Heb 1:8 pros de ton uion o thronos sou o theos eis ton aiona tou aionos rabdos euthuteitos e rabdos tes basileias sou
Rev 21:5,6, and 14, and His commandments, are irrelevant! That is the whole point. The same writer, John, writing in the same book, Revelation, undeniably supported by the most accurate manuscripts, quotes both God and Jesus saying I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. John wrote what he saw and heard, what Jesus and the angel told him to write, he knew who God was and who Jesus was.
God said in Isaiah that He is the first and the last and before Him, after Him, and beside Him there is no God. Jesus said He is the first and last. How many first and last are there? Who is right Ed or the Bible?
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Jesus is set down with the Father in His (the Fathers) throne.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
But there is only one, on the one throne.
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
God sits on the one throne.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne.
But the lamb is also in the midst of the one throne.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,
One sits on the one throne.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
But the one throne is the throne of God and the lamb.
Upvote
0
Originally posted by OldShepherd
You are the one who has VISION problems OldShepherd. Apostle Paul wrote, "...SEEN" of angels, right? Apostle Paul further wrote that the one he is referring to was "...received up into glory." Did people SEE the one that was "received up into glory?"
Acts 1:11 - "...This SAME Jesus, who was taken up from you in heaven, will so come in LIKE manner as you SAW him go into heaven."
Your statement that "Paul very clearly refers to Jesus as God" is a MISREPRESENTATION because there is NOTHING in 1 Tim. 3:16 that says "Jesus is God." That is ONLY your IMAGINATION of what the verse should say to FIT your FALSE belief that Jesus is God.
Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 1:17 and 1 Tim. 6:16 that God is INVISIBLE and CANNOT be SEEN. Apostle Paul in 1 Tim. 3:16 writes that Jesus, the MANIFESTATION (image) of the INVISIBLE God, was "SEEN by angels."
Clearly OldShepherd, you are MISREPRESENTING apostle Paul!
First, the verses are SELF-EXPLANATORY if you know what that means;
Second, Jesus TAUGHT that he was ascending to HIS Father and to HIS God (John 20:17). God DOES NOT have a God (Is. 44:8; 45:5-6; 46:9); and
Third, apostles Peter and Paul TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5); they TAUGHT that Jesus HAS a God and Father because Jesus TAUGHT them that; and apostle Paul wrote that for THEM (Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the Father.
Obviously your VISION is tainted by your BIAS toward the Trinity. 1 John 5:8 EXPRESSLY teaches that the witnesses AGREE as ONE. If John were saying in 1 John 5:7 that they are ONE God, then he would NOT have written in 1 John 5:8 that the three AGREE as ONE because Jesus has DECLARED that ONLY the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).Obviously, the THREE would NOT have AGREED on that!
You are ranting like a two-year old OldShepherd. Answer my question if you can. You don't accept any explanation except your own. Jesus is BOTH Son of God and Son of Man BECAUSE the Bible CLEARLY (no opinion nor interpretation) says so. That Jesus is God is YOUR twisted interpretation of the apostles' writings.
What Trinitarians believe is FALSE. You can make Jesus and God ANYTHING you WANT them to be. But that does NOT make it true UNLESS the Bible CLEARLY (without any BIASED opinion) says so. Again, I say, that Jesus is high priest and sacrifice at the SAME time BECAUSE the Bible says so. He is Son of Man and Son of God BECAUSE the Bible says so. Jesus is a MAN because the Bible says so. Thhe FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God BECAUSE the Bible says so.
Since you are so knowledgeable of the Greek language, tell me. Why did apostles Peter and Paul write that Jesus is a MAN who HAS a God and Father? Didn't they REALIZE that they had ALSO written that Jesus is "God and Savior?" Don't you THINK that God would have REMINDED them of this and TOLD them not to write these things?
Since you are so knowledgeable of the Greek language, tell me. Why did apostles Peter and Paul write that Jesus is a MAN who HAS a God and Father? Didn't they REALIZE that they had ALSO written that Jesus is "God and Savior?" Don't you THINK that God would have REMINDED of this and TOLD them not to write these things?
Then tell me OldShepherd. If apostle Paul truly BELIEVED that Jesus is God, why did he write the Corinthians that for them, there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6)? WHY did apostle Paul write that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL if he TRULY thought that Jesus is God? Was apostle Paul BLIND not to have SEEN Jesus? No! Apostle Paul was NOT blind. In FACT, he wrote that he was the last to have SEEN Jesus (1 Cor. 15: 8).
Who is DISTORTING the Scripture to make it FIT a FALSE doctrine?
Phil. 2:5-8 was written by Apostle Paul who ALSO wrote that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 6:16). Apostle Paul ALSO wrote 1 Cor. 8:6 where he CLEARLY stated that the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God. Apostle Paul ALSO wrote that Jesus HAS a God AND Father (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3).
Now tell me HONESTLY OldShepherd. Without TWISTING Phil. 2:5-8, do we read in there that Jesus is God, CONTRARY to what apostle Paul wrote in his other epistles?
Ed
You are the one who has VISION problems OldShepherd. Apostle Paul wrote, "...SEEN" of angels, right? Apostle Paul further wrote that the one he is referring to was "...received up into glory." Did people SEE the one that was "received up into glory?"
Acts 1:11 - "...This SAME Jesus, who was taken up from you in heaven, will so come in LIKE manner as you SAW him go into heaven."
Your statement that "Paul very clearly refers to Jesus as God" is a MISREPRESENTATION because there is NOTHING in 1 Tim. 3:16 that says "Jesus is God." That is ONLY your IMAGINATION of what the verse should say to FIT your FALSE belief that Jesus is God.
Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 1:17 and 1 Tim. 6:16 that God is INVISIBLE and CANNOT be SEEN. Apostle Paul in 1 Tim. 3:16 writes that Jesus, the MANIFESTATION (image) of the INVISIBLE God, was "SEEN by angels."
Clearly OldShepherd, you are MISREPRESENTING apostle Paul!
First, the verses are SELF-EXPLANATORY if you know what that means;
Second, Jesus TAUGHT that he was ascending to HIS Father and to HIS God (John 20:17). God DOES NOT have a God (Is. 44:8; 45:5-6; 46:9); and
Third, apostles Peter and Paul TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5); they TAUGHT that Jesus HAS a God and Father because Jesus TAUGHT them that; and apostle Paul wrote that for THEM (Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the Father.
Obviously your VISION is tainted by your BIAS toward the Trinity. 1 John 5:8 EXPRESSLY teaches that the witnesses AGREE as ONE. If John were saying in 1 John 5:7 that they are ONE God, then he would NOT have written in 1 John 5:8 that the three AGREE as ONE because Jesus has DECLARED that ONLY the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).Obviously, the THREE would NOT have AGREED on that!
You are ranting like a two-year old OldShepherd. Answer my question if you can. You don't accept any explanation except your own. Jesus is BOTH Son of God and Son of Man BECAUSE the Bible CLEARLY (no opinion nor interpretation) says so. That Jesus is God is YOUR twisted interpretation of the apostles' writings.
What Trinitarians believe is FALSE. You can make Jesus and God ANYTHING you WANT them to be. But that does NOT make it true UNLESS the Bible CLEARLY (without any BIASED opinion) says so. Again, I say, that Jesus is high priest and sacrifice at the SAME time BECAUSE the Bible says so. He is Son of Man and Son of God BECAUSE the Bible says so. Jesus is a MAN because the Bible says so. Thhe FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God BECAUSE the Bible says so.
Since you are so knowledgeable of the Greek language, tell me. Why did apostles Peter and Paul write that Jesus is a MAN who HAS a God and Father? Didn't they REALIZE that they had ALSO written that Jesus is "God and Savior?" Don't you THINK that God would have REMINDED them of this and TOLD them not to write these things?
Since you are so knowledgeable of the Greek language, tell me. Why did apostles Peter and Paul write that Jesus is a MAN who HAS a God and Father? Didn't they REALIZE that they had ALSO written that Jesus is "God and Savior?" Don't you THINK that God would have REMINDED of this and TOLD them not to write these things?
Then tell me OldShepherd. If apostle Paul truly BELIEVED that Jesus is God, why did he write the Corinthians that for them, there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6)? WHY did apostle Paul write that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL if he TRULY thought that Jesus is God? Was apostle Paul BLIND not to have SEEN Jesus? No! Apostle Paul was NOT blind. In FACT, he wrote that he was the last to have SEEN Jesus (1 Cor. 15: 8).
Who is DISTORTING the Scripture to make it FIT a FALSE doctrine?
Phil. 2:5-8 was written by Apostle Paul who ALSO wrote that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 6:16). Apostle Paul ALSO wrote 1 Cor. 8:6 where he CLEARLY stated that the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God. Apostle Paul ALSO wrote that Jesus HAS a God AND Father (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3).
Now tell me HONESTLY OldShepherd. Without TWISTING Phil. 2:5-8, do we read in there that Jesus is God, CONTRARY to what apostle Paul wrote in his other epistles?
Ed
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Ed with your view of Jesus just being a man. You proclaim that when Jesus died on the cross for us that it was just a man. His death was no different than any other man. Is this correct? Would you also say that Jesus was no different than any other man on the earth? That is he did not have one bit of Deity that he was only given all authority by God after he was raised from the dead?
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
