Shroud of Turin proven genuine by REAL science

Originally posted by npetreley
Too bad this forger only used his/her knowledge to create the shroud and didn't share the results of his/her research about 1st century Israel with the rest of the world. It would have saved us a lot of trouble re-discovering these things over the next hundreds of years. ;)

LMAO :D
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah
You have journals that call the C14 into question, although the authors dont outright conclude that the tests are worthless.

The Gove paper didn't call anything into question, since it couldn't determine whether microbes do affect the dating of linen at all. Furthermore, they don't even know if the shroud (specifically the samples they took in 1988 and cleaned) even had microbe residue on it. It even rebuts the fire hypothesis.

I'll try to get to the other paper later tonight, which might change the fire conclusion.


So, the SOLE piece of evidence you have that its a fake it shady at best.

C-14 isn't the only piece of evidence that it is a hoax. 3-D imaging and the shape of the face pretty much rule out that the image was left by a human body. Personally, I think the latter is more convicing than the dating.
 
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3-D imaging and the shape of the face pretty much rule out that the image was left by a human body. Personally, I think the latter is more convicing than the dating.

Could you please cite the journal that claims this to be true? All of the experts that I have ever heard never mentioned it.
 
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VOW

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To Rufus:

In order to re-create the 3-D image, you have to know what the original proportions were. The image that you see (what you call more of a relief than a face) is just an approximation. The fact that the 3-D even RESEMBLES a face is remarkable.

When you digitize something, you have to use known points with known XYZ coordinates. The image on the linen could only give XY coordinates with any certainty, the Z coordinate had to be estimated.

And since I'm a surveyor and have done work with terrain line interpolation, you could say I know a little bit about the subject.



Peace,
~VOW
 
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Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus?
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus? Where is your journal Rufus?

And Vow called me childish....

Are those grapes sour enough for you, Souljah.

I'll see if I can find the reference.
 
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Originally posted by VOW
To Rufus:

In order to re-create the 3-D image, you have to know what the original proportions were. The image that you see (what you call more of a relief than a face) is just an approximation. The fact that the 3-D even RESEMBLES a face is remarkable.

When you digitize something, you have to use known points with known XYZ coordinates. The image on the linen could only give XY coordinates with any certainty, the Z coordinate had to be estimated.

And since I'm a surveyor and have done work with terrain line interpolation, you could say I know a little bit about the subject.

Let me see if I can be more specific on this observation. I saw the experiment done once, I'll see if I can dig up a reference. If not, I'll recreate it myself. You can recreate it too and see if you get the same results.

When a shroud is wraped around a head (losely or not), if it leaves a mark, the sides of the face will leave marks too. When the shroud is unwraped and placed flat the image of the face will represent the front and the sides of the head. However, the sides will be placed alongside the head. In other words, the image looks like the unwrapping of a face. However, the image on the shroud of turin is a projection of a face, q.e.d.
 
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To Rufus:

Whenever you try to convert a 3-D image into a 2-D representation, you are going to have some distortion. That's a given. You minimize the distortion by using smaller and smaller planes of reference. Even so, you are still going to have some distortion. The point, or even the plane area of direct contact will have the least amount of distortion, in this case, the nose and the forehead. The further away, such as the sides of the head, you will have greater distortion.

What this means in terms of digitizing is that you will have a DIFFERENT factor for many of the individual Z coordinates.

That is why I said the ability to discern a face, and facial features is what is so remarkable about the 3-D image created. The Z-coordinates had to be estimated for the digitization. The known control points were essentially "fuzzed in" to create the image.

Look at a topo map, such as a USGS quad map. It will show you are REALLY, REALLY good idea of what is actually on the ground, but it's not going to be precise. In order to MAKE it precise, you would need many coordinating surveys done, in order to provide individual corrections, to accommodate the fact that the earth is a spheroid and the photographical plates used are flat.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Vow,

I've gone from talking about the 3D imaging specifically, which if you are correct, cannot distinguish between a relief image and a human head. But that leaves me with a question? If 3D imaging can only guess at the Z coordinate, why is it used at all? If depth is only a guess, then you can't rule out that there is no 3d information in the shroud.

I'm now talking about experiments that look at the imprint left by a head wrapped in a shroud, which I mentioned in my first post in this thread. It is simple to do.

1. Put paint on your face.
2. Put cloth around face, making sure it touches the paint.
3. Look at image; compare to shroud.
 
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To Rufus:

The Shroud was not WRAPPED around the head, it was draped. Only the forehead, the nose, the chin, and part of the cheek touched it directly. The Z-coordinates had to be estimated because the Shroud image was neither true projection nor true contact.


Peace,
~VOW
 
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kaotic

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Originally posted by VOW
To Rufus:

The Shroud was not WRAPPED around the head, it was draped. Only the forehead, the nose, the chin, and part of the cheek touched it directly. The Z-coordinates had to be estimated because the Shroud image was neither true projection nor true contact.


Peace,
~VOW

lol WHO cares about the Shroud, It can never be proven that the shroud was laid over Jesus cause no one has his DNA, Plus no one even KNOWS if Jesus was real.  Or if he was there is no way to prove anything about him. SORRY everyone but its the truth.
 
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To Seesaw:

By your reasoning, then, circumstantial evidence is no "real" evidence at all. If you don't have an actual eyewitness to a murder who can testify at a trial, then nobody can be charged with murder.

Most of science, and practically ALL of astronomy is determined by circumstantial evidence.


Peace,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by VOW
The Shroud was not WRAPPED around the head, it was draped. Only the forehead, the nose, the chin, and part of the cheek touched it directly.

Really; my Bible (NIV) says that it was wrapped.

Matthew 27:58-60 "Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away."

Mark 15:45-47 "When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid."

Luke 23:52-54 "Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body. Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin."

John 19:39-41 "He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid."

However, I just tested it out by lying on my back and draping a sheet over my head. It sure seem to touch all of my face to my ears. (It is amazing what gravity will do. ;)) But it shouldn't matter whether it was touching or not, if the image is a radiation burn.
 
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Again, Seesaw:

We're looking at CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE. As an example, all of the wounds suffered by Christ as described in the Bible are evidenced by the Figure on the Shroud. It was common for crucifixion victims to have their legs broken to hasten their demise, causing them to suffocate. There are no signs of broken legs on the Figure of the Shroud. The wound in the side from the Centurion's spear is on the Figure, as is puncture marks from the Crown of Thorns, and lash marks from the scourging. Once you start plugging all these small details into a probability equation, it narrows down the possibility of the Shroud belonging to "just anyone."

Right now, though, the sticking point is the age of the Shroud. And that is open to a very heated debate.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by VOW
To Rufus:

And the DEPTH was estimated by the SHADING of the image. Darker image=contact point, with the image becoming lighter and lighter, as the skin was further away from the linen.

So depth is reliable (within some error range). Why then are the 3-d results for the sides of the face, and thus total depth of the head, unreliable?

But why would a radiation burn (as some people have claimed) leave shading?
 
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