Jehovah's Witnesses and Immortality of the Soul

I can't help you. I am not ready for this kind of debate. I think you shouldn't start another debate with them.

Why? Are you doubting yourself?

Do some research for yourself and find out about them. That will help. As far as soldier saints - yes there are some. How about Saint George? Saints Sergius and Bacchus?

Sergius & Bacchus the Great Martyrs of Syria


October 7
Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone
Thy Martyrs, O Lord, in their courageous contest for Thee received as the prize the crowns of incorruption and life from Thee, our immortal God. For since they possessed Thy strength, they cast down the tyrants and wholly destroyed the demons' strengthless presumption. O Christ God, by their prayers, save our souls, since Thou art merciful.
Kontakion in the Third Tone
As we gather, let us crown with sacred hymns of laudation those two brethren in the Faith, the great and valorous martyrs: Sergius was the Triune Godhead's most steadfast warrior; and with him, wise Bacchus manfully suffered torments; and they both confessed Christ Saviour as God, the Maker and sacred Trainer of all.
Reading:
These holy Martyrs were Romans of high rank in the service of the Emperor Maximian, to whom it was reported that they did not take part in the festivals of the idols. When he called them into his presence, they confessed their Faith in the one God. He had them arrayed in women's clothes and paraded through the streets in mockery. They were afterwards scourged, from which Saint Bacchus died. This was about the year 296. Saint Sergius was then taken to Resapha in Syria, where he was tortured and beheaded. His tomb in Resapha became a very famous shrine, to which pilgrims came from as far away as Western Europe; Resapha was later renamed Sergiopolis in his honour.

MichaelArchangelos said:

I don't want to get into another debate with them. I'm just worried about their teachings.

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Why are you worried about Arians?

Brother, they are using Old Testament verses to "prove" something.

These people have no idea that WE are the people of the NEW Testament.



JW just like Seventh Day Adventists teach about soul sleep - that is,
there is no soul - soul is not immortal - soul means life.

They teach that every time the word soul is mentioned it means either LIFE, LIVING, ORGANISM or whatever else, but not soul as "we know it".

For them there is no hell - hell does not exist.

Upon death person dies and that is it - there is nothing until resurrection - soul sleeps - it has no knowledge of itself or God - for as the soul means life - when dead life does not exists - therefore there is nothing.




So, she found you some verses - and you are worried - why?

We are the people of the New Testament - why am I saying this?!

Well, not everything that we hold was revealed in the OT -

Trinity for example - that is why JW's do not believe that Christ is God nor Holy Spirit - this is why Seventh Day Adventists at the start did not believe in the Trinity.

These two are the perfect examples of old heresies embodied in neo American sects, cults, heretics.

As the JW are Arians so are the SDA Judaisers - nothing new under the sun - satan does not re-invent himself - he teaches old lies to new people who then get sucked up and try to teach it to the world.


If there is no souls - that is if every time word soul is mentioned it means life (heretics teach) there is no hell -

but Christ taught about hell and souls going to hell - this happens after people die - therefore - soul does not mean life because then Christ would be a liar - maybe someone thinks so - but I am inclined to believe Christ rather than some Arian or Judaiser - to hell with them.


The verses of the Old Testament are the verses of the Old Testament - we hold them God-inspired - but we had Christ, Pentecost, St. Paul and 2000 years of Holy Spirit and Church since the Old Testament days-

if everything was explained in the OT - why bother with Pentecost (i.e.) or St. Paul - just read the OT and all is explained... this is illogical - we have new science and new theology -

we have Triune God and the Church

If you read the Ephesians 3, St. Paul says that THROUGH THE CHURCH the secrets of God have been explained even to the Angels...

To use the verses of the OT to argue against the Church - is stupid... nothing more and nothing less.





Many years.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" - Rev 6: 10-11
However, when I've used this verse as proof that there are souls in heaven that are cognizant of their being and happenings in the world, they immediately call it symbolic.


Also, interesting is the KJV interpretation of Eccl. 9:5 -
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Not their memory is forgotten, rather, we no longer remember them.

Asking for your prayers,
Chacci

I am going to post some writings that your JW friend might have been referring to wrt soldiering. I am not advocating a particular position here. I am just giving information. Each person must follow their own conscience.

M.

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http://incommunion.org/articles/resources/letter-from-st-paulinus-of-nola
Saint Paulinas of Nola (354 - 431) was a distinguished lawyer who held several public offices in the Roman Empire. After the death of their son, Paulinas and his wife Therasia gave away all of their property and riches and dedicated their lives to the poor. Paulinus was chosen bishop of Nola by popular demand. Among his close friends was St Augustine of Hippo.
Paulinus’ writings include a letter to Crispinianus, a soldier in the Roman military. Paulinus exhorts Crispianus, a Christian, to leave the military and devote his life to God. His letter is below.

Letter 25, to Crispinianus

...There is nothing, my blessed son, which can or ought to be preferred to Him who is the true Lord, the true Father, the eternal Commander. To whom is it right to devote our lives more than to Him from whom we received them, and for whom we must preserve them to the end, because we live by His kindness? If we have been a soldier for Him in this world, we shall then deserve to pass over to Him. But if we love this world more, and prefer to be a soldier for Caesar rather than for Christ, we shall later be transported not to Christ but to hell, where the cause of the princes of this world rests.

2. So we ought not to put loyalties or fatherland or distinctions or riches before God, for Scripture says: “The fashion of this world passeth away.” And those who love this world will also perish with it. This is why the Lord Himself speaks these words of the Gospel in witness: “He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And whoever doth not take his cross and come after Me, cannot be My disciple.”
Of the riches of this world, which some embrace and love as the highest and necessary good, He says: “Treasuries shall not profit wicked men, but justice delivers from death.” Again He says through a prophet: “All were destroyed who were exalted with gold and silver.” In the Gospel, too, He cries out in condemnation of the rich men of this world: “Woe to you rich; for you have your consolation. Woe to you that are filled; for you shall hunger. Woe to you that now laugh; for you shall mourn and weep.”

3. Therefore do not any longer love this world or its military service, for Scripture’s authority attests that “whoever is a friend of his world is an enemy of God.” He who is a soldier with the sword is the servant of death, and when he sheds his own blood or that of another, this is the reward for his service. He will be regarded as guilty of death either because of his own death or because of his sin, because a soldier in war, fighting not so much for himself as for another, is either conquered and killed, or conquers and wins a pretext for death—for he cannot be a victor unless he first sheds blood. So the Lord says: “You cannot serve two masters,” the one God and mammon, that is, Christ and Ceasar, even though Caesar himself is now keen to be Christ’s servant so that he may deserve kingship over a few peoples. For it is not some earthly king who reigns over the whole world, but Christ God, for “all things were made by Him and without Him was made nothing. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. Whatever He pleases He does in earth, in the sea, in the deeps.”

4. Let us follow Him, then. Let us be soldiers for Him. The soldier who wears armour for Him is never unarmed. On them that fight for Him He bestows the glory of eternal life, the distinction of the heavenly kingdom, the riches of His inheritance, and an everlasting share in the knowledge of God. But Scripture says: “He that loveth money shall not be justified,” and “he that seeketh after earthly possessions shall become entangled in them.” So divine Wisdom speaks through the mouth of Solomon in Ecclesiasticus: “Many have been brought to fall for gold, and the beauty thereof hath been their ruin. Gold is a stumbling block and casts down those that follow after it. But only fools shall perish by it.” So flee from it, my son, as from the appearance of a serpent. Trust in Christ, who in the Gospel solemnly states to all men: “A man’s life doth not consist in the abundance of things which he possesseth.”

5. Perhaps, however, the confidence of youth, your family tradition of distinctions, and your increased riches prompt you to say: “I am still young and have time to complete my army service, marry, have children, and afterwards serve God.” You are answered not by me but by the Lord speaking through His prophets and apostles. The prophet says: “Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day, lest His wrath come on a sudden.” The Gospel indicates with what eager haste we should seek conversion when it says: “From the days of John the Baptist until today, the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent bear it away.”

Such violence is welcome to God, for it disturbs no one and is achieved without harm to any. Direct your hands to the plunder which is sinless and brings salvation. Why should you trouble about the provision of solders’ pay which involves the violence you loathe, when doubtless your integrity makes you mild in levying even the regular taxes? Whereas without rousing anyone’s hatred and with God’s grace you can be violent in seizing the kingdom of heaven. When it “suffereth violence,” Christ rejoices at being attacked, because with His abundance of love and power He is capable both of donating what He holds and of retaining what He gives. For when He allows His saints to reign in His kingdom, He will reign amongst those whom He has adopted as comrades in His heavenly kingdom. Scripture says that God’s kingdom will be shared with His saints and that those saints are themselves God’s kingdom. If God is good and you are converted, you will discover this by reading, and understand it by believing.

…(Paulinus discusses the difficulties of family life)…

8. Listen, then, my son, and give me your ear. Break off all ties which bind and entangle you in this world. Change your secular military service into something better-start being a soldier for the eternal King. I hear that you now help and protect civilians; I pray that you may become the count of Christ. Again, you in secular military service are wont to pray for advancement to the rank of protector, but if you prove yourself before God, you will begin to have Him as your Protector. See to what kind of military service I invite you as a comrade, for God will be to you what you hope to be to a man. Once you begin to follow Him, you begin your service as a count, and the end of your service will be kingship not on earth or in time, but in eternity and in heaven.
Source: Letters of St. Paulinus of Nola. Translated an annotated by P.G. Walsh. (Westminster, MD: Newmann Pres: 1966-67).

They also told me that “True Christians” would not fight in the army. They told me that in the early days of Christianity, soldiers who converted had to leave the army and find a new job, and that history attests this. I thought that there were some saints who were soldiers. Can anyone back me up on this?

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40 Martyrs at Lake Sebaste

March 9
Apolytikion in the First Tone
Be entreated, O Lord, by the sufferings endured for You by the Saints, and we pray You, heal all our pain.
Kontakion in the Plagal of the Second Tone
O Forty Champions of the Lord, you abandoned the armies of the world and attached yourselves to the Master in heaven. Having gone through fire and water, O Blessed Ones, you worthily won glory from heaven and a multitude of crowns.
Reading:
The martyrdom of the Holy 40 Martyrs of Sebasteia is a powerful lesson in Christian faith, perseverance, sacrifice, and friendship. The story of this martyrdom begins in the early part of the 4th century when the persecution of Christians was still active. There were 40 soldiers of the Roman army who possessed sincere faith in Jesus Christ. When it was realized that they would not deny their belief in the Lord, they were brought to trial before their commander who threatened to have them discharged from the military dishonorably. One of the soldiers responded: "Do not take only our military status, but also our bodies; nothing is dearer or of greater honor to us than Christ our God." Following a number of failed attempts to torture them, they were finally stripped, tied, and thrown into a lake. It happened to be wintertime and the temperature was extremely cold. To tempt the soldiers to deny Christ, the torturers lit fires near the lake to entice them to deny Christ. One soldier actually did come out of the water and headed for the fire, but before he could get there, he died. During the night, a light from heaven came down and heated the lake and warmed these Christian witnesses. At the same time, thirty-nine crowns were sent from heaven and rested upon each of them. One of the soldiers torturing them saw this and, moved by this event, confessed the Christ as Lord and Savior and joined the others in the lake. A fortieth crown appeared and descended upon him at that very moment. In the morning, the commander was furious when he learned of the events and ordered that their legs be broken and they be thrown back into the lake. On the third day following their drowning, the martyrs appeared to the local bishop and told him to search beneath the water and recover their relics. In the middle of the night, the bishop, along with his priests, went to the lake where they found the relics glowing in the water and, gathering them together, they gave them a proper burial.

For the immortality of the soul read...
On the Soul and Resurrection"St-Gregory of Nyssa"
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_8_16&products_id=197

“As many as were called by grace, and displayed the first zeal, having cast aside their military belts, but afterwards returned, like dogs, to their own vomit, so that some have regained their military stations; let these, after they have passed the space of three years as hearers, be for ten years prostrators. [Hearers and prostrators are categories of penitents who can be present, like catechumens, for the Liturgy of the Word, but are barred from the Eucharistic Liturgy.] But in all these cases it is necessary to examine well into their purpose and what their repentance appears to be like. For as many as give evidence of their conversions by deeds, and not pretense, with fear, and tears, and perseverance, and good works, when they have fulfilled their appointed time as hearers, may properly communicate in prayers; and after that the bishop may determine yet more favorably concerning them. But those who take the matter with indifference, and who think the form of not entering the Church is sufficient for their conversion, must fulfil the whole time.”
(Canon XII, First Ecumenical Council)

“A soldier under authority shall not kill a man. If he is ordered to, he shall not carry out the order, nor shall he take the oath. If he is unwilling, let him be rejected. He who has the power of the sword or is a magistrate of a city who wears the purple, let him cease or be rejected. Catechumens or believers, who want to become soldiers, should be rejected, because they have despised God.”
(Canon XVI: On professions, Apostolic Tradition)

St. Maximilian

In narratives of the early Church that come down to us regarding the lives of the saints, some concern those who refused military service. One of these was a young Christian named Maximilian, a recruit tried the 12th of March, 295, at Mauritania in Northern Africa.

On trial for his life, Maximilian told the proconsul Dion, “I cannot serve because I am a Christian…. I cannot commit a sin. I am a Christian.”

“Serve, or you will die,” said Dion.

“I shall not serve,” said Maximilian. “You may cut off my head, I will not serve this world, but only my God.”

Dion asked, “Who turned your head?”

Dion said to Victor, the boy’s father, “Speak to your son.”

Victor said, “He is aware and can take his own counsel on what is best for him.”

Dion said to Maximilian, “Agree to serve and receive the military seal.”

“I will not accept the seal,” he replied. “I already have the seal of Christ who is my God.”

Dion said, “I shall send you to your Christ directly.”

“If only you would,” he replied. “This would be my glory.”

Dion addressed his staff, “Let him be given the seal.”

Maximilian resisted and said, “I will not accept the seal of this world; and if you give it to me, I shall break it, for it is worthless. I am a Christian I cannot wear a piece of lead around my neck after I have received the saving sign of Jesus Christ my Lord, the Son of the living God. You do not know him; yet he suffered for our salvation; God delivered him up for our sins (cf. Acts 2:22-4; Rom. 8:32). He is the one whom all we Christians serve: we follow him as the prince of life and the author of salvation.”

“You must serve,” said Dion, “and accept the seal – otherwise you will die miserably.”

“I shall not perish,” said Maximilian. “My name is already before the Lord. I may not serve.”

Dion said, “Have regard for your youth: serve. This is what a young man should do.”

“My service is for my Lord,” Maximilian replied. “I cannot serve the world. I have already told you: I am a Christian.”

The proconsul Dion said, “In the sacred bodyguard of our Lords Diocletian and Maximian, Constantinus and Maximus, there are soldiers who are Christians, and they serve.”

Maxmilian replied, “They know what is best for them. But I am a Christian and I cannot do wrong.”

“What wrong do they commit,” said Dion, “who serve in the army?”

Maximilian replied, “Why, you know what they do.”

The proconsul Dion said, “Serve. If you despise the military service you will perish miserably.”

Maximilian said, “I shall not perish, and if I depart from this world, my soul lives with Christ my Lord.”

“Strike out his name!” said Dion. And when his name had been struck out, Dion said, “Because you have refused military service out of disloyalty, you will receive a suitable sentence as an example to the others.” Then he read the following decision from a tablet: “Whereas Maximilian has disloyally refused the military oath, he is sentenced to die by the sword.”

The last recorded words of Maximilian are “Thank God.”

St. Martin of Tours

From the mid-fourth century comes an account of the life-risking refusal to participate in combat by St. Martin of Tours. a young Roman officer who had recently become a Christian.
Martin was about twenty when a barbarian invasion of Gaul – today’s France – brought his personal situation as a Christian convert to a head. His company was called to appear before Caesar Julian (Caesar 355-360, then Augustus 360-363) to receive a war-bounty. Refusing to accept his, Martin explained to Julian: “Up to now I have served you as a soldier. Now let me serve Christ. Give the bounty to these others – they are going to fight, but I am a soldier of Christ and it is not lawful for me to fight.”

The irate emperor accused him of cowardice, to which he replied that, in the name of Christ, he was prepared to face the enemy on the following day, alone and unarmed. He was thrown into prison, but a swift end to the hostilities meant that no further action was taken against him, and he was discharged. After his discharge, Martin was ordained a priest and went on to become one of the most important missionary bishops of his generation.

MichaelArchangelos said:

I was talking to some Jehovah’s Witnesses today at the university market day, where they have a stand. I have met this particular lady before, and I first went over to say hi. I told her that although I don’t agree with their theology, I applauded them giving out books that refute evolution.

However, she started talking about the immortality of the soul, and how that is a false doctrine carried over from paganism. I told her that I’d read Fr. Seraphim’s book The Soul After Death, which tells about what happens to us when we die. I explained how when you die, your soul leaves your body, and I quoted several of the experiences that Fr. Seraphim talks about, plus one that isn’t in the book. The one that is the most convincing is that of a blind woman who could see when she left her body, and accurately described what was in the room. They still didn’t believe me. They claim that your soul is you – man is a soul. They use Genesis 2:7 as "proof": “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” They also quote Numbers 31:28 to show that animals are souls.

The lady showed me Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Does this mean that the soul will die in a spiritual sense, i.e., being cut off from God? What is the Orthodox interpretation of this?

Then she quoted Ecclesiastes 9:5 “For the living will know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost”. I don’t know enough about the Orthodox teaching on the state of anticipation to refute this. Do the dead in Hades know anything? Do they have full memory of their past lives?

Lastly, this lady talked about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. She quoted John 11:11 “Lazarus our friend sleepeth”. I looked up this passage in the original Greek, and it reads “Λάζαρος ὁ φίλος ἡμῶν κεκοίμηται”. While I am taking an ancient Greek class at university, I couldn’t determine what form of the verb “kekímite” was, so I couldn’t look it up in the dictionary. Does anyone here know enough Greek to recognize the verb and point me to the dictionary form? I presume (although this is just a guess) that the same word means “rest” as well as sleep. Rest has no connotations of not being conscious.

They also told me that “True Christians” would not fight in the army. They told me that in the early days of Christianity, soldiers who converted had to leave the army and find a new job, and that history attests this. I thought that there were some saints who were soldiers. Can anyone back me up on this?

Thanks for any help you might be able to give. What they’ve said has worried me a bit.

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They misrepresent the Biblical teaching on "soul." While in the OT the word nephesh/neshamah can refer to the whole person - i.e., "being" - it's clear from several NT passages that "soul" psyche is not the same as body or spirit, even it there is some semantic overlap - e.g., 1 Cor 5:5; 1 Thess 5:23; Hebrews 4:12

John 11:11 kekoimêtai - perfect passive* of koimaô "put to sleep; sleep" - same verb St. Paul uses in 1 Cor 11:30. It's idiomatically used for "die." Those who don't recognize how highly idiomatic and context-sensitive language is are doomed to mistranslate and misunderstand it.

* The perfect is formed by duplication of the initial consonant + epsilon as a prefix to the verb. The perfect passive uses the passive endings -mai, -sai, -tai, -metha, -sthe, -ntai with no connecting/thematic vowel.

The JW, have no clue, as proof just look at the myriad of times they predicted the end of the world, yet we are still here.

1. On Mt Tabor on the Tranfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared.

2. Jesus teaches us on the afterlife in his parable about the Rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16.19)

3. Jesus said to the repentant thief, "Today, you will be with me in paradise."

4. JW falsely teach that the greek word hades means "cememtary plot", this is a complete and total lie. Hades is the realm of those souls who have departed from their bodies. (Look it up anywhere)

5. Both the hebrew and greek for spirit/soul means 'breath" , death being the seperation of the soul from the body (you stop breathing).

I can go on and on.

MichaelArchangelos said:

I got the dictionary form off another forum, but thanks for the tense. We haven't got onto the perfect tense - we've done the future and aorist, and are now doing the imperfect.

I looked up 'koimaw' in the dictionary, and it also means 'rest', which has no connotations of unconsciousness.

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A word means what the author/speaker meant it to mean in the context in which he used it. That's what seems to throw people - i.e., they want to limit a word's meaning, or invest it with their preferred meaning, or commit countless other kinds of fallacies with it - read D. A. Carson EXEGETICAL FALLACIES.

Board:

Is it a piece of wood?
Is it a group of people who oversee an organization?
Is it a verb, and what you do to your windows in a storm?
Is it being used as a play on words with "bored"?
Is it half of a contract for "room and board"?

The JWs believe that Jesus Christ is really the Archangel Michael, and they don't believe in the Holy Spirit other than it's God's breath, or something. They think the cross was just a straight post with no crossbar, which history disproves that. The Romans used crosses for executions. Archaeology also proves that.

They have their own translation of the Bible, and it's rather - biased toward their beliefs.

They don't believe in Christmas or Easter, either.

Isn't the reason that many newly-converted Christians left the military in the early church, because they had to take oaths to pagan gods in order to serve?



Mary

Mary of Bethany said:

Isn't the reason that many newly-converted Christians left the military in the early church, because they had to take oaths to pagan gods in order to serve?



Mary

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The question is more what if they were already serving, had already taken oaths, but then converted to Christianity?

I'm not that well enough read up on that topic, but it seems to me when Christianity was legalized, then it was a different matter.

JWs refuse to vote, or salute the flag, too.