In the beginning....God caused sin?

ghs1994 said:

I'm curious to know what Reformed theology says concerning evil in the world.

Is it reasonable to say that God caused man to sin?

Was it possible for man to disobey God of his own will?

I think what I'm trying to get at here is where our responsiblity lies. I'm trying to understand the seperation of God's will and man's will, or are we just living out (all of us, including the unbelievers) the path God has already set us on?

Thanks for your responses.

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a man holds out his hand holding a ball , he lets the ball drop , it falls downward and hits the ground ............


yes , what caused the ball to hit the ground ?

It is my understanding that our first parents were able to freely choose. The consequence of that decision has affected us. Our will is now, apart from being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, broken.

Now, God knew they would sin. Is his foreknowing ordaining the act itself? I cannot say.

Mike

evil come about because of free will. God allowed A&E the freedom to choose to live under him. By disobeying him they chose not to and because of that so are we.

ghs1994 said:

Hmm? I didn't know 'free will' was a concept accepted by Calvinists. Could you explain that to me? I'm not sure I follow.

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How would you define 'fee will'? A definition acceptable to most is that given by Jonathan Edwards...the ability to choose what we want. Edwards goes so far as to say that we will always choose according to our strongest desire. Someone might argue "Well, I don't really want to go take my calculus test this afternoon, but I'm going to." Edwards would reply something to the effect of "Your desire to complete the calculus class is stronger than your desire to avoid the test, so you are following your strongest desire in this case."

Here's another example...my family was driving home from town...about a 45 minute drive. My ten-year-old son asked if he could play on the computer when we got home. This was in the spring and the weather had just turned nice, so we were trying to get the kids outside more, so I replied, "When we get home, you can either go outside and play, or help wash those dishes we need to catch up on." I think you can tell which he chose...by his own free will!

One last example...if you love vanilla but hate chocolate, you would choose vanilla every time, by your own free choice.

Do you see where we're going here? Scripture tells us what the unregenerate heart will choose every time, by it's own free choice. The unregenerate heart hates God and is at enmity with God. It will only choose one way...against God...until the heart is first regenerated. Since the fall, mankind is born dead in sin. We can still choose what we want to, but in our unregenerate state, we will always choose against God. Nobody is forcing us to choose this way; it's what we really want. Calvinists believe that an unregenerate person, dead in sin and separated from Christ, will always choose against God until God first regenerates that person's heart.

ghs1994 said:

Hmm? I didn't know 'free will' was a concept accepted by Calvinists. Could you explain that to me? I'm not sure I follow.

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Technically, Reformed doctrine (or at least my understanding thereof) doesn't preclude the existence of free will. Rather it says that our "free" will is bound entirely to sinful behavior. So in a sense we have free will. But what good is that free will if we use it exclusively to condemn ourselves?

arunma said:

Technically, Reformed doctrine (or at least my understanding thereof) doesn't preclude the existence of free will. Rather it says that our "free" will is bound entirely to sinful behavior. So in a sense we have free will. But what good is that free will if we use it exclusively to condemn ourselves?

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what is difficult to grasp is the nature of Satan and how that came from created perfection .......

John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."


The devil is a liar, a thief and a murderer. John 10:10 says, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.''

I always thought the wording of the Westminster Confession was really strange when you compare it to the beliefs of the majority of staunch Calvinists.

It says, "When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil."

From this description, the Confession seems to think that bondage of the will, in words of Luther, only applies prior to regeneration. But after regeneration, free will is totally present again.

Lets look at that, for as the OP worded that, its a trick question, and cannot be answered properly.

Look at Genesis 1:

"that it was good:" (v. 3)

"it was good." (v. 9)

"God saw that it was good." (v. 12)

"and God saw that it was good." (v. 18)

"and God saw that it was good." (v. 21)

"and God saw that it was good." (v. 25)

"it was very good." (v. 31)

In the creation account, everything God created was either good, or very good."

Satan was a created angel, and being created, he fell under the "good" category. But, read Isa. 14, here we read:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." -Isa. 14:12-14 (KJV)

Then read Eze. 28, here we read:

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." -Eze. 28:13-17 (KJV)

Sin originated in Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, whatever you want to call him. Let me pull out some single verse to show this:

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:" (Isa. 28:13)

"I will be like the most High." (Isa. 28:15)

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Eze. 28:15)

"By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:" (Eze. 28:16)

"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:" (Eze. 28:17)

All this, happened within Satan. He is the cause of sin.

And if you look closely, each one of the attributes that caused Satan to fall, was passed on to Adam, when he fell. And because of Adam's sin, those same things can be found in us also.

God Bless

Till all are one.

There has been a very interesting article on the web for some years now:


The link is here

A Biblical Theodicy

W. Gary Crampton*

Ronald Nash has written that “the most serious challenge to theism was, is, and will continue to be the problem of evil.”1 Warren believes that “it is likely the case that no charge has been made with a greater frequency or with more telling force against theism of Judeo-Christian [Biblical] tradition” than the complication of the existence of evil.2 And David E. Trueblood has boldly maintained that the obstacle of evil and suffering in the world is “evidence for the atheist.”3

Indeed, the Biblical writers themselves address the issue of God and evil. The prophet Habakkuk complained, “You [God] are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness. Why do You look on those who deal treacherously, and hold Your tongue when the wicked devours” (1:13)? And Gideon asked, “O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this [hardship] happened to us” (Judges 6:13)?

If, according to the Bible, God, who is omnipotent and benevolent, has eternally decreed all that ever comes to pass, and if He sovereignly and providentially controls all things in His created universe, how is He not the author of evil? How can evil exist in the world? How do we justify the actions of God in causing evil, suffering, and pain? This is the question of “theodicy.”

The word, which supposedly was coined by the German philosopher Gottfried Leibniz (1646-1716), is derived from two Greek words (theos, God, and dike, justice), and has to do with the justification of the goodness and righteousness of God in the face of the evil in the world.
As we will see, however, the problem of evil is not the compelling argument it is made out to be. In fact, as Gordon Clark has said, “whereas various other views disintegrate at this point, the system known as Calvinism and expressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith offers a satisfactory and completely logical answer.”4 The answer, as we will see, lies in the Christian’s epistemological starting point: the Word of God.

Throughout the centuries there have been numerous quasi-Christian attempts to deal with this issue. Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of the Church of Christ, Scientist, simply denied that evil exists; that is, evil is illusory. More recently E. S. Brightman and Rabbi Harold Kushner opt for a finite god. Their god is limited in power or intelligence; hence, he cannot be blamed for evil in the world....

.... have a look at the above mentioned link for further reading.

ghs1994 said:

I'm curious to know what Reformed theology says concerning evil in the world.

Is it reasonable to say that God caused man to sin?

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Well, this is, in my opinion, the most difficult part of the Bible to effectively address, though not for the reason you seem to ask. The Bible is clear that God is first causal. That is, in a certain sense, God played a part in all things that come to pass, though to identify Him as the "cause" of a person's sin isn't actually accurate, nor biblically supported. I will say this, God created man, knowing that man would fall and be corrupted by sin. God needn't create man but was fulfilling His purpose to do so. God did not tempt man to sin, yet He did not stop man from being tempted, though it was surely in the power and authority of God to keep man from temptation. He simply chose not to. On to the rest of your question...

Was it possible for man to disobey God of his own will?

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Judging by the fact that man did disobey God we are only left with choosing between man chose to do so of his own volition or whether he was forced to do so. If he were forced, i.e., he had no choice, it would be unjust to punish him for doing so. We know that God is not unjust so it cannot be this. Therefore, having a will, we can acknowledge that man exercised it in opposition to God's command. I couldn't for the life of me begin to tell you how it is possible that pre-Fall Adam or Eve could choose that which is contrary to the Law of God because doing so requires that one desire that which is contrary to the Law of God. Adam and Eve, being without sin, had no desire for that which was contrary to the Law of God so their choice, though volitionally wrought, doesn't add up, at least not in my opinion. They could have chosen to refrain from sin, and quite easily.

You see ghs1994, Adam and Eve were created posse peccare, able to sin, and posse non peccare, able to not sin. That is, they were created with the ability to sin or not sin, but not the inclination to do so.

The only rational conclusion, at least in my opinion, is that Adam chose, of his own volition, to disobey God. Anything else makes God's judgement against Adam, and his progeny, unjust, though I acknowledge that, in my finitude, there could possibly be other explanations.

How Adam, pre-Fall Adam, could choose that which would seem to run contrary to his sinless nature, well, that part I'm at as much of a loss as anyone.

God bless

SaintPhotios said:

I always thought the wording of the Westminster Confession was really strange when you compare it to the beliefs of the majority of staunch Calvinists.

It says, "When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil."

From this description, the Confession seems to think that bondage of the will, in words of Luther, only applies prior to regeneration. But after regeneration, free will is totally present again.

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You're able to desire good in a good way from within your regenerate will -- that is, you freely, not under compulsion, are able to desire the good.

ghs1994 said:

I see. I always understood "freewill" having a will outside the will and predestined plan of God, whether believer or unbeliever.

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Which makes mincemeat of Scriptural passages like -- "The LORD has spoken -- will He not carry it out?" If you're saying you can will and do things that successfully oppose God's predestined events in the world, your answer there is, "Well, He might not be able to."

Scripture abhors that response in page after page.

ghs1994 said:

If I understand correctly, we have the will to choose, but not beyond what God will allow?

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Eh? Our wills are made by God. We will freely what God freely ordained us to will.

ghs1994 said:

If we choose, how does that correlate to salvation? What, if any, choice do we have in our salvation? Are we not just obeying God for what He has already put into action? So, is there a choice in salvation made by man of his own will or is it the will of God only?

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There is a choice a man makes out of his own will. It is from a will that's regenerated by the Spirit of God.

ghs1994 said:

We must have some sort of "free" will even after regeneration:

Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but rather thru love serve one another.

Is is true even though we have the Spirit of God that the sin nature is still there?

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Eh, this is freedom from the Law's punishment; this is not freedom of the will.

Its hard to understand. No he did not. He did "allowed" their freewill to sin.

SaintPhotios said:

I always thought the wording of the Westminster Confession was really strange when you compare it to the beliefs of the majority of staunch Calvinists.

It says, "When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil."

From this description, the Confession seems to think that bondage of the will, in words of Luther, only applies prior to regeneration. But after regeneration, free will is totally present again.

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That all depends upon your definition of free will. Man has, and always will be, free to will. At least within the limits of his moral or physical abilities.

I, for instance, can will myself to fly, but it won't happen. It is beyond my abilities. I can also will to do that which is good, but the ability to perform it is not present in my native wants. At least, so says Paul. I tend to believe him.

God didn’t not merely permit sin and evil but decreed it, He had to, or else it would not have originated.

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 Samuel 24:1.

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1 Chronicles 21:1.

And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me. And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
2 Samuel 24:10-14.

What is the will but a function of the mind? What moves the will? If we claim you do, as in yourself, it begs the question since the mind is “self” and the answer is a non-answer. If we say that secondary causes move the self to will, then how is the will free to choice? The mind is not able to freely choose.

Remember former things of old, For I am Mighty, and there is none else, God--and there is none like Me. Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from of old that which hath not been done, Saying, `My counsel doth stand, And all My delight I do.' Calling from the east a ravenous bird, From a far land the man of My counsel, Yea, I have spoken, yea, I bring it in, I have formed it , yea, I do it. Isaiah 46:9-11.

What is God doing in this verse?

I don't believe God is responsible for man's sin the Bible tells us clearly that man is responsible for his own sin. Why? Cause God says so. God knew from eternity what sin men would commit and created man knowing that they would sin. Sin is not an after thought.

Whatever is done is done in accordance with God's will. God doesn't decree because He learns, God decrees what He knows, if God has to learn, then He isn't all knowing but all learning.

I could be wrong and often am, but I'm consistent.

j

DeaconDean said:

All this, happened within Satan. He is the cause of sin.

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The idea that God created good and Satan created evil is theologically referred to as Dualism. It is rejected by Calvinism as anti-Scriptural and of eastern Mysticism in origin. Sadly, because many Christians don't correctly understand Scripture, it is rampant in the Church of Christ today.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....