For those of you who are . . .

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SumTinWong

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of the Liberal crowd like myself, how much does it bother you to hear that the world and/or CF is going to hell because of your/our wishes. I saw someone who I thought was a pretty good friend recently blame the downfall of CF on liberals. I admit I like some of the change but not all of them in fact some of hem are downright stupid. But because i am liberal on some subjects it is assumed i am liberal on all.

Not wanting to do anything but breed discussion here, why is it we cannot move past labels and just see that we all see things different based on our life experiences?

Is it so hard to say, I do not agree with you, but i love you anyway?
 

erin74

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Can I be candid Uncle Bud?

This is not a personal thing. I have a huge amount of respect for you and am friends on here with many who would call themselves liberal.

But for me, theologically, I find liberalism very difficult. As a conservative christian I value absolutes. I don't claim to have all the answers, and it is with humility that I claim the beliefs I do - I could very well be the one that's wrong. But absolutes are important. There is nothing relative about christianity. Our God is not a God of two minds, and it is not up to me to determine what he does or doesn't stand for. It is for me to submit and obey.

Liberalism seems to fly in the face of absolutes. I can see that the desire is that of love and tolerance, but I when I read the bible I don't see a tolerant God. I see one who woudn't tolerate sin, but who was willing to sacrifice his son so that those of us who do sin (ie all of us) may still see life. That is not tolerance at all.

Liberalism frequently seems to make compromises which for me are far too great. It is not love to call someone who does not know God as if they do. I know it is not for me to sit in judgement. But which is more loving, to see someone who I believe to be in error and in danger of losing their footing and turn my back. Or to try and correct them, again humbly admitting that it may be I that is wrong.

So while I am not sure who or what exactly you are commenting about, and without knowing where you stand on any of the things I have just mentioned, I can say that I do have some understanding of why a conservative christian might find these changes disturbing, and might see liberalism as being to blame. I am not saying I agree with them (in fact I think that is far too simplistic an answer). Just that I understand. When we give ground constantly we eventually will give too much. That is my concern for CF. It is not the 'fault' of the Liberal members. There is something inherently wrong with the entire system.

Sorry if this has been phrased badly. I am trying to explain how I feel, but I am also quite unwell at the moment and have not the clearest mind.
 
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AngCath

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of the Liberal crowd like myself, how much does it bother you to hear that the world and/or CF is going to hell because of your/our wishes. I saw someone who I thought was a pretty good friend recently blame the downfall of CF on liberals. I admit I like some of the change but not all of them in fact some of hem are downright stupid. But because i am liberal on some subjects it is assumed i am liberal on all.

Not wanting to do anything but breed discussion here, why is it we cannot move past labels and just see that we all see things different based on our life experiences?

Is it so hard to say, I do not agree with you, but i love you anyway?

As someone who is liberal on some matters, but more importantly as someone who really likes CF I really resonate with your post. As someone who is liberal on some things, and conservative on others, I really resent being labelled a "conservative" or a "liberal".
I think the notion that "liberals" are to blame (which is something I have seen as well) is flat wrong and insulting to everyone here.
 
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SumTinWong

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Erin, thank you for responding. I feel that blaming the fall fo CF and morals in general in the world on liberalism to be the cowards way of not taking personal responsibility for ones actions.

I am liberal in many things, but only those things that are not set in stone. For instance I do not believe that there is any other way to God but through Jesus Christ and that I firmly believe. I am liberal on how people find Christ. One of the great (recent) Anabaptist teachers found Christ and believes he was born again when he was a JW, and left the church as a result of inconsistancies within the church. So I do believe that there are other roads besides Bible alone that will lead one to the foot of the cross.

I am liberal in whether women should be pastors. I know history has proven male dominance over women, and the Bible even spells out that women should not be leading men, but I believe that was during a place and time when uneducated women leading men would have been a disaster. Educated women? Seems to me that many churches today would close their doors if not for the strength of women to hold the doors open.

One can be liberal and still be a God fearing person. Hell, I am totally against Unitarians, LDS and JW's being able to represent themselves as Christians in this forum, but am liberal enough to realize that is the nature of this site. If it bothers me enough i will just expose them as what they are instead of leaving because they make me feel uncomfortable.

CF has to give ground because the faulty premise that it supports. It says it wants to unite all Christians (or those who call themselves Christians anyway) to one body but that is the rub. Liberals conservatives and cults all say they are the Christians. You cannot deny the rights of some and lift up the rights of others and still claim to represent all members. If in fact conservatives want their voice to be heard they have to concede that the liberal voice will and does have equal footing.

Who is to blame? I am. I could have done more to foster peace here, but sometimes I love to fight even when I know it is wrong. I get into meaningless conversations with zealots of all kinds fighting battles that have been fought over and over and over again to the determent of the forum. I left for quite some time because of it. But I am back now because I want to make a difference.

I don't know you, and you don't know me but I concede that you may be right about a great many things that you believe, but i also am willing to admit that until I have this realization for myself I cannot accept it as gospel. That for me is being open minded or in some terms liberal.

I do thank you for being candid by the way and hope you do come back. Please do not leave because you are uncomfortable. Ghandi said "be the change you want to see . . ." and I believe that is what we should all do. If we are unhappy with this system, let's change it and stop blaming others is all I trying to say because I have met some really God awful liberals and conservatives in here that care nothing about the gospel but just love to spew their views instead of living in love.

Anyway peace, and i hope you do come back.
 
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No Swansong

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Hi Uncle Bud I hope that you realize I have always enjoyed your company.

To answer your question I only have one response.

It is kind of like all the years of Conservatives being told that they are what was destroying STR. Surely you don't think that liberals have a monopoly on receiving undue blame do you?
 
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Naomi4Christ

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of the Liberal crowd like myself, how much does it bother you to hear that the world and/or CF is going to hell because of your/our wishes. I saw someone who I thought was a pretty good friend recently blame the downfall of CF on liberals. I admit I like some of the change but not all of them in fact some of hem are downright stupid. But because i am liberal on some subjects it is assumed i am liberal on all.

Not wanting to do anything but breed discussion here, why is it we cannot move past labels and just see that we all see things different based on our life experiences?

Is it so hard to say, I do not agree with you, but i love you anyway?
I'm not a liberal, but I am horrified at the way that liberals are treated on this site.

I have many concerns about liberalism, but I think it also has a lot to offer, and we should all try to learn from the different parts of the faith.

I would like to think that all Anglicans are a little bit of everything - liberal, evangelical, and catholic. If you think of a triangle with each churchmanship taking a corner, I'd like to think that we are all inside the triangle somewhere, and not on the corner or on an edge. If we are all just one thing, we cannot possess the fullness of faith.
 
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SumTinWong

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It is kind of like all the years of Conservatives being told that they are what was destroying STR. Surely you don't think that liberals have a monopoly on receiving undue blame do you?
No, but as one who didn't blame any of the conservatives, but perhaps it is because I am liberal that I see the attacks our way. I dunno maybe one group is more vocal than the other?
 
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Aymn27

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No, but as one who didn't blame any of the conservatives, but perhaps it is because I am liberal that I see the attacks our way. I dunno maybe one group is more vocal than the other?
I'm convinced....the chimp is the problem ;)
 
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higgs2

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Hi Uncle Bud I hope that you realize I have always enjoyed your company.

To answer your question I only have one response.

It is kind of like all the years of Conservatives being told that they are what was destroying STR. Surely you don't think that liberals have a monopoly on receiving undue blame do you?

My memory is so bad. I cannot remember that having been said. Could you provide a link, perhaps?
 
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higgs2

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of the Liberal crowd like myself, how much does it bother you to hear that the world and/or CF is going to hell because of your/our wishes. I saw someone who I thought was a pretty good friend recently blame the downfall of CF on liberals. I admit I like some of the change but not all of them in fact some of hem are downright stupid. But because i am liberal on some subjects it is assumed i am liberal on all.

Not wanting to do anything but breed discussion here, why is it we cannot move past labels and just see that we all see things different based on our life experiences?

Is it so hard to say, I do not agree with you, but i love you anyway?

I think you're right, we need to move past labels. How do you think we could do that?
 
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Aymn27

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I think you're right, we need to move past labels. How do you think we could do that?
People only want to "move pass labels" when they are the one's being labeled....the odd thing is, that folks who generally say these sorts of things (let's stop labeling each other) generally label others, if not directly, then indirectly....

To be honest, it's human nature to "label" - it's how our brain sorts and understands information - we label ourselves and others and divide everyone into groups - it's just the way the brain thinks..

Incidentally, I don't mind being labeled at all - I sorta like it...it generally fits how I identify myself..

PS - Higgs/Uncle Bud - I'm not attacking your stance - just thinking out loud..hope this doesn't offend and it certainly is not meant to..
 
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SumTinWong

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I agree i think we all label people either by necessity or by lack of compassion or maybe even ignorance. I know people who I work with were called 'tards for the longest time because they were scary to some people.

Anyway how can we get rid of labels? What helps me is to remember that i am looking or talking to someone made in the image of God no matter how imperfect that image may be. I usually do not always remember this rule, and have been known to "catagorize" groups of people myself, but I am willing to join a twelve step program and sing kumbya if anyone is willing to do the same LOL

Seriously this just sucks. I hate being labeled something when it is done with a sneer. If my wife calls me liberal I know she is doing it because she respects and knows me. Other people?

Anyway . . .
 
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higgs2

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I wonder if there could be a difference between "getting rid of" labels and "moving past" labels. I think the latter is what I would envision for STR (or AFP or whatever).

I agree i think we all label people either by necessity or by lack of compassion or maybe even ignorance. I know people who I work with were called 'tards for the longest time because they were scary to some people.

Anyway how can we get rid of labels? What helps me is to remember that i am looking or talking to someone made in the image of God no matter how imperfect that image may be. I usually do not always remember this rule, and have been known to "catagorize" groups of people myself, but I am willing to join a twelve step program and sing kumbya if anyone is willing to do the same LOL

Seriously this just sucks. I hate being labeled something when it is done with a sneer. If my wife calls me liberal I know she is doing it because she respects and knows me. Other people?

Anyway . . .
 
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ebia

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I wonder if there could be a difference between "getting rid of" labels and "moving past" labels. I think the latter is what I would envision for STR (or AFP or whatever).
Australian Federal Police? Oh, yeh, I see. Hmm - I hadn't noticed the unfortunate abreviation for those of us down here.
 
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ebia

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So what do you think of the "getting past" labels concept?
Absolutely. Labels serve a purpose, but they shouldn't be confused with reality. They can be a useful shorthand, but they can also be a divisive tool for writing off people and opinions.

Should we not use AFP?
Don't worry about it. It's just that the AFP (as in Federal Police) have been in the news a lot lately, in a not particularly good way.
 
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pmcleanj

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... As a conservative christian I value absolutes. I don't claim to have all the answers, and it is with humility that I claim the beliefs I do - I could very well be the one that's wrong. But absolutes are important...

Erin, I think you have quite astutely identified here one of the major drivers behind our human tendency to resort to labels.

Human motivations are infinately variable and complex. We can never be certain what another person's motives truly are. But, if we can categorize that person based on some criteria, and apply a label accordingly, then we can give ourselves the illusion of having some sort of certainty about him. And that can be comforting.

The risk is, of course, in confusing certainty with the absolute. Whereas the absolute is just that -- objective, unchanging, and unrelated to an individual's understanding; certainty is a subjective and internal feeling. Oliver Cromwell's great call which you echo, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken" is a calling to exercise tremendous courage: to abandon certainty in favour of humility; but it is a calling that would be made nonsensical by the false premise that "no-one is ever mistaken because there is no absolute standard".

Consider: many years ago, a friend took Anne to ski the famous Continental Divide trail at Sunshine in the Rockie Mountains. The trail skims along a great mountain saddle-ridge that is literally the continental divide: stray off the trail to the west too far, and you slide down into the Pacific watershed; to the east too far, and you slide down into the Atlantic side of the Rockies. You stay on the narrow hieght only by adhering carefully to the Via Media.

That is what Anglicanism is like: stray too far toward the allure of certainty, and you lose the humility and self-abnegation that Cromwell so wisely extolled. Stray too far toward the allure of non-distinction, and you lose our very identity as Christians. But the middle way, by its very nature, has no strict limits, and so requires constant discernment, and that can be very stressful.

I think that when we say "liberals compromise the faith itself", we are often failing in discernment. And note, everyone, that is NOT what Erin said. She said "Liberalism frequently seems to make compromises." Sometimes -- usually, I believe -- a person is called "liberal" and assumed to be relativist, because of the manner in which they talk about their absolute beliefs. If a person, sensative to the way that non-Christians tune out any mention of God that sounds like a televangelist, intentionally avoids Christian buzz-words; another person may see the similarity between the words he does use, and the words used by non-Christian spiritualists and conclude thereby that the first one is non-Christian. This is, indeed, much of the source of John Spong's vilification.

And at the same time, a person who is carefully using precise Christian vocabulary developed by historical theologians over the past four hundred years, may disgust someone who sees the similarity between his language and a Benny Hinn's -- even though the theology of the two could not be more different. I've seen both Francis Schaeffer and John Stott rejected by this kind of shallow thinking.

This is why we need desperately to challenge labels. The labels are an easy out that prevent us from using actual personal discernment. Instead of assuming that we know all another's motives and beliefs because of one thing we think we know about them, we need to be able to ask, and to listen -- and even to challenge -- until we truly know them. And we need to admit that then, we will only know that individual, not everyone we would like to lump into the basket with them.

All of which requires that we have the courage, in the bowels of Christ, to think it possible we may be mistaken.
 
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