Lack of finances=lack of faith?

"If most sicknesses are caused by demons the just rebuke it."

but not all, thus you are finally giving way for the biblical view. Some sickness is God's will and not caused by 1. sin and 2. demons.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"If most sicknesses are caused by demons the just rebuke it."

but not all, thus you are finally giving way for the biblical view. Some sickness is God's will and not caused by 1. sin and 2. demons.

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Jesus said I and the Father are one. So for this to be true, then it would also have to be true to say: Some sickness is Jesus will, or some sickness is the Holy Spirit of God's will. The problem with this is, that the we are talking about the Holy Spirit of Grace.

So is it the Grace of God for some to be sick? Does God receieve honor and glory from this? To me the statement that people are sick because of their own free will is a more accurate statement. Rather than to try and put the blame off on God for their sickness.

God will not take responsability for the mess man and the devil have made out of things.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Is sickness the "good, acceptable, & perfect will of God?"

Sense you say sickness is the will of God and we are to always do the will of God, does that mean we should pray for sickness, so we can do God's will?

1 Peter 4:2  that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Peter says we should live for the will of God. So should we live to be sick? If the sickness is aids, and onto death, should we live in order to die? If it is the will of God for people to be sick, then why does God heal people? Would that not be against His will?

If sickness is the will of God is it the will of God for all people. If it was God's will for some people to be sick, does that mean that God is a respector of persons? Does that mean He favors one person over another, if it is His will for some people to be sick, but not for other people to be sick?

To say that some sickness is the will of God does not stand up to reason and it is not logical. He may allow some sickess, He allows a lot of things. But just because He allow is, or even if He causes good to come out of it, that does not make it His perfect divine will for us under the Spirit of Grace.


 



 

 

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
sometimes, the ultimate healing is death. 

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Excuse me, death is the enemy. Jesus is life and health and healing. Maybe what you were meaning to say is that the resurrection of the dead is the ultimate healing. Some of us here do not plan to die. We plan to be changed in a moment of time in the twinkle of an eye. In fact if we are going to be going up with the Saints of God, then the resurrection power of God should already be at work in us to prepare us.

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
Read 1 Peter 5:10 again.  It clearly says that God's people will suffer, and god will work it out according to His plan.  His plan may not be tomorrow, or next year.  God's people may suffer for years until they are healed.  It doesn't mean they don't have faith.  It means GOD is doing HIS WILL in HIS TIME.     

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You need to go back and read that verse in context, because basicly what you are saying is that Satan is serving God and doing His will, and that is not true. God will not take responsability for the mess that man and the devil have made out of things.

He does take responsablity for having created man. He does offer men and women the chance to repent. But He does not take responsabilty for their rebellion. He is not the author of confussion but of peace.

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
we lived in hand-me-downs and on food stamps my dad didn't have faith? 

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He must have had faith in the government to provide food for his family. The problem with this is, in order to qualify for food stamps in America you have to be living in poverty according to their standard.

No where does the Bible say that poverty is the will of God for us. In fact Jesus says to seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteouness and all these things shall be added onto you.

Psalm 37:25
    I have been young, and now am old;
    Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
    Nor his descendants begging bread.

God provides for the righteous, I live by that every day of my life. They may use their free will to go elsewhere for their provision if they want, but that does not make it God's will for them.

In the Ark were three items, Aaron's rod that budded, the manna and the ten commandments. This is symbolic of mans rebellion against the provision of God, the leadership of God, and the commandments of God.

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
Quaffer, I agree with you, and don't think I ever stated that God purposely makes us suffer. I certainly am not any sort of Biblical scholar, in fact far from it. But, I cannot bring myself to believe that if your prayers aren't answered, you don't have faith. I know a lot of beautiful, devout, strong Christian people who faithfully love the Lord, give Him praises, pray for healing. Yet, they continue to suffer with terminal illness. I don't even begin to think they lack faith, but that God has a purpose for them and is using their suffering for His greater good. And sometimes, the ultimate healing is death. If I were to suffer with Cancer, I would rather go to Heaven and be with my Lord. I'm not quite sure what (other than my family members, who I look forward to seeing in Heaven eventually anyway) would be worth staying on Earth for.

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The Bible states that we have not because we ask not, and when we do ask we ask amiss.

Scripture says that by His stripes we are/were healed.  So therefore, once we've asked for healing, when we continue to ask, as if He has not answered, then we are asking amiss.

We are to ask, and then begin thanking Him for the answer, even though we may not yet see the manifestation of it. 

The only one we are supposed to pester in regards to our healing is the enemy.  See parable of unjust judge told by Jesus (Luke 18:5-7).  He steals our health, therefore he's got to remove his hands from my body. 

And instead of wallowing in self-pity (all of us are guilty) we are to lift our hands to God and thank Him that He's given us salvation.  Thank Him that He's given us authority over the enemy.  Praise and worship God and dance before Him and we will see the enemy let loose of our belongings (physical, spiritual, and mental) and flee.

And for those who will argue with me on this point, try it before you argue against it.  It's what His Word tells us to do.

"Jesus said I and the Father are one"

*sigh* faulty conclusion. Sickness is a physical thing. You are not physically one with the father and the verse you're quoting doesn't advoate that. Please do not take verses out of context to make a point. Thanks.

"Does God receieve honor and glory from this? "

Yes!! If you can worship him in the good times okay, if you can worship him in the bad and still trust him, its quite a tesimony. Have you ever read the story of Corey Tin Boom?

"Is sickness the "good, acceptable, & perfect will of God?" "

No, but neither was christ's death. Both happen and both are used by God for his glory. You could even say he cause it in some cases to further his glory

"Sense you say sickness is the will of God and we are to always do the will of God, does that mean we should pray for sickness, so we can do God's will? "

No, because you should pray for God to stengthen you spiritually, if sickness is the avenue, so be it. You're making a wrongful conclusion. Not all sickness is the will of God, in certain cases it is though, so please to not put words in my mouth. Its not good for the conversation and not civil at all.

"To say that some sickness is the will of God does not stand up to reason and it is not logical. "

Its totally logical and totally reasonalbe. Your argument of "Does that mean He favors one person over another, if it is His will for some people to be sick, but not for other people to be sick? " is a very weak and faulty one. Its like saying he favors an athlete over a nonathlete, or someone who is strong physically verses someone who is weak physically.

"Excuse me, death is the enemy. "

LOL, if that is so then you're going to get conquered. You will die someday, I hate to tell you this. The Enemy is SIN. That's all. the wages of sin is SPIRITUAL DEATH. That is the enemy you need to fight against, physical death is not the enemy. Read your bible. Are you saying that those in christ in the NT were defeated by the "enemy" because they died a physical death? That's just silly. They won through christ and are now alive, but not physically because physical death is not the enemy.


"The Bible states that we have not because we ask not, and when we do ask we ask amiss."

Quaff, it also says that God doesn't give us everything we want if its not good for us, and that he is also the author of bad times that test us. Praise him anyway.

No, because you should pray for God to stengthen you spiritually, if sickness is the avenue, so be it.

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There we go again Louis...
So we need to add something to the work of Christ? Everything needed to author and finish our faith was accomplished by Jesus in His suffering, death, and resurrection. There is nothing we need to do to add to it.
This is a gospel of works.

"There is nothing we need to do to add to it. "

I agree, we don't add anything to it, we are not talking about salvation here hobs, we are talking about sanctification, something that is an on going process.

Amen Louis; "Sanctification" should never be confused with Regeneration; Salvation is "recieved" by Faith in the "finished" work of our Lord & Master, but the active working of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives I like to term "Progressive Sanctification" and this will continue until we receive our glorified bodies which can never fail us again--Glory!

Sanctification is the second working of salvation. The salvation of the soul.
Salvation of the spirit is a free gift. Salvation of the soul is something that we aquire by yeilding to the Holy Spirit. And it is nessesary to see the promises of God fulfilled

Originally posted by Pastor Bob Oliver
Amen Louis; "Sanctification" should never be confused with Regeneration; Salvation is "recieved" by Faith in the "finished" work of our Lord & Master, but the active working of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives I like to term "Progressive Sanctification" and this will continue until we receive our glorified bodies which can never fail us again--Glory!

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Progressive sanctification is a lie of the enemy to keep christians in bondage to sin and make them feel better about it.  Sanctification is a finished work gained through water baptism and the cross.  This is why we are called holy by God.

Gal 5:

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally posted by Pastor Bob Oliver
Amen Louis; "Sanctification" should never be confused with Regeneration; Salvation is "recieved" by Faith in the "finished" work of our Lord & Master, but the active working of the Holy Spirit in our daily lives I like to term "Progressive Sanctification" and this will continue until we receive our glorified bodies which can never fail us again--Glory!

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I agree PBO, but Louis is not talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, which BTW was only make possible by Jesus( Remember Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would not come until Jesus returned to the Father).

Louis is saying:
"No, because you should pray for God to stengthen you spiritually, if sickness is the avenue, so be it."

The Holy Spirit uses healing, not sickness to edify the body.

"The salvation of the soul."

No, the soul is saved before sanctification.


"but Louis is not talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, "

ahh..but yes I am unless you're saying that everytime you get sick or get a cough you loose your salvation and have to get it back again, which is wrong.

the Holy spirit uses EVERYTHING to teach us. It used Christ's death to save us, so you don't think it can't use sickness to teach us? wow..you sure do limit the power of God Hobs....

Then why does sdcripture tell us to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling? And Paul, that we should reccon ourselves dead to sin if wee are already saved from it.

"Then why does sdcripture tell us to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling? "

Out of respect for God? HUH? yes you should in the fact that it is a gracious gift that we don't deserve..no in the fact that we are scared to screw up.

Out of respect for God, are you kidding. God wants to love us not intimidate us.

So, I suppose that Paul, the prolific writer of scripture, who has been quoted many times throughout this thread had no faith because he had an eye affliction. Even worse, he succumbed to the "enemy" of death, so his faith must not have been very strong.

My 3 year old daughter loved God. She knew He created everything for her. John, you're saying that she was conquered by evil because she died in a car accident? That is moronic. She is with God now, playing non-stop, waiting to see the rest of her family when we die and are reunited in Heaven. I'm not sure where you get this idea that you aren't going to die, but maybe you should reread the ashes to ashes scripture.

No one in my wife's family is Christian. But they are opening up and asking questions because of the spirit and faith my wife has shown throughout this ordeal. If 20 people get saved because my wife is paralyzed, then God has been glorified.

Louis, I agree with you. God can work for His good through EVERYTHING.

I don't feel that we need to ask for forgiveness evry time we get a cold.

Paul didn't have an I afliction. If you ask Andrew, he has some wonderful proof to the contrary.

How many more will be saved when God heals her?

Originally posted by Dewjunkie
John, you're saying that she was conquered by evil because she died in a car accident? 

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I do not know enough about your situation to say anything. You are trying to put words in my mouth. God is the only one who should be putting words in our mouth, His word. Because His word is life, health and healing.