What Part of Forever Do People Not Understand?

Duh, everyone knows God is indeciesive!

Zahava said:

Shalom everyone. I am Jewish and would like the following answered CHARITABLY please. You can find this and other posts on my blog spot.

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The short answer is that Christianity as presented in the New Testament does not propose that God has abandoned his covenant with the Jews. (Although I will admit that some might say that)

Paul is quite clear in his writings that the Jews have been blinded for a while in order that the Gentiles might be brought into the covenant. Note that he doesn't say that the Jews were cut off from God, only that they were blinded for a while.

The New Testament is pretty clear that when the time of the Gentiles is past, and the full measure brought into the covenant, God will bring the Jews back in and honor his covenant with Israel made at Sinai.

Many would say, that with the reestablishment of Israel and the Jewish ownership of Jerusalem that the time of the Gentiles is at an end and Israel is being regrafted back onto the vine as we speak. This is escatology so some might disagree.

I will try to answer your post point by point as timepermits if someone else doesn't do it first.

If any person goes against what Moses taught, which he learned straight from the Almighty....then one certainly should not listen to him.

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Shalom and welcome to the NCR board. The Christ-ian NT fulfills the OT/OC for those in the Christ. There is in fact a lengthy discussion on this at this thread if you are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5801642-olam-means-forever.html


I do like this view of "forever".

2 corin 3:15 But even-to today when ever may be being read Moses, a covering on the heart of them is set/lying/keitai <2749>. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil/kalumma <2571> is taken away.

Revelation 1:1 A-from-covering/apo-kaluyiV<602> Yeshuwa` Mashiyach, which gives to Him, the God/YAHWEH, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which is behooving to be becoming in swiftness.

Revelation 22:5 And night shall be no more; and they have no need of the light of a lamp or the light of a sun, because, the Lord God will give them light,--and They shall reign unto the Ages of the Ages.

touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Zahava said:

Shalom everyone. I am Jewish and would like the following answered CHARITABLY please. You can find this and other posts on my blog spot
zahava pasternak. blogspot. com (remove the spaces)


Tehillim/Psalms 9:11 He hath sent redemption unto His people; He hath commanded His covenant for ever; Holy and awful is His name.

The Covenant of Sinai is Eternal

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made confession, and said: 'O Lord, the great and awful God, who keepest covenant and mercy with them that love Thee and keep Thy commandments,

1 Chronicles 16:12 Remember His marvellous works that He hath done, His wonders, and the judgments of His mouth;
&#1497;13 O ye seed of Israel His servant, ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones.
&#1497;14 He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth.
15 Remember His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations;
16 [The covenant] which He made with Abraham, and His oath unto Isaac;
17 And He established it unto Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an everlasting covenant;

Deuteronomy 4:2 Every matter which I command you observe to do it; you shall not add to it, or subtract from it" Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deut. 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 29:28. The hidden things belong to the Lord, our God, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, violated the statute, broken the everlasting covenant.
We see that the N.T. advocates all three of these things; that people transgress the laws, change the ordinance and break the everlasting covenants.

1. Transgressing the Law:
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, ... (Gal 3:13)

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ....But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal 3:24-25)

But now we are delivered from the law, .... and not in the oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:6)

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.Heb 7:12

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Romans 4:13 -16)

2. Changing the Ordinances:

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, ... (Colos 2:14)

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Colos 2:20)

3. Breaking the Everlasting Covenant, i.e. the Sabbath, the Brit Milah or the everlasting priesthood.

1. Sabbath -- as specified in:

Thus shall the children of Israel observe the Sabbath, to make the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant. Between Me and the children of Israel, it is forever a sign that [in] six days The Lord created the heaven and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and rested." (Exodus (Shemot) 31:16-17)

Each and every Sabbath day, he shall set it up before the Lord [to be there] continuously, from the children of Israel an eternal covenant. (Leviticus (Vayikra) 24:8)

And He set it up for Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant. (Chronicles I (Divrei Hayamim I) 16:17)

Does not Christianity repudiate G-d's commandments by establishing a "new" Sabbath on the first day; the so-called "Lord's Day" (see Acts 20:7 and Revelation 1:10). This clearly ignores God's command that the Sabbath is for the Jews, the Children of Israel, ONLY. The Sabbath is not for Gentiles!

2. Brit melah -- as specified in:

This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised. And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you. (Genesis 17:10-11)

Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant. (Genesis 17:13-14)

Does not Christianity now spit in the face of G-d, speaking against the very people He chose for His special mission?

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (Galatians 5:2)

3. Everlasting priesthood -- as specified in:

It shall be for him and for his descendants after him [as] an eternal covenant of kehunah, because he was zealous for his God and atoned for the children of Israel. (Numbers 25:13)

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Hebrews 7:12 )
A final word of wisdom from the real Bible, the Hebrew Bible -- a prophetic warning from Jeremiah:

Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Deuteronomy 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face
If any person goes against what Moses taught, which he learned straight from the Almighty....then one certainly should not listen to him.

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Maybe I misunderstand Judaism, and hopefully you can help me out, but If I understand what you are saying correctly, is basically, Jesus can't be the Messiah because he changed some laws~almost making some of the laws irrelevant. Well, and I mean absolulty NO disrespect to you, but how come the Mosaic law of stoning to death for certain crimes is not practiced? I don't even think it's practiced in the ultra-orthodox communities or even in Israel is it? Will this be somethign reinstated when the Temple is rebuilt?
I don't mean to sound like a smart-alec but this is the only example I could think of.

Hi Zahava,
Thanks for the link to your blogspot, I'll check it out.

Zahava said:

We see that the N.T. advocates all three of these things; that people transgress the laws, change the ordinance and break the everlasting covenants.

1. Transgressing the Law:
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, ... (Gal 3:13)

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ....But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal 3:24-25)

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Consider the audience and the background: The Galatians were Gentiles who had come to faith in Christ. Certain Jewish Christians came along and told these Gentiles that to inherit the promises of Abraham they must be circumcised. These Galatian Christians weren't converting to Judaism, they were observing a halfway position in a dispute within Christianity. This was before the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

Zahava said:

But now we are delivered from the law, .... and not in the oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:6)

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Paul continues in Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Zahava said:

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)

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Paul was speaking to Gentile Christians. Gentiles are not obligated to please God through the law.

Zahava said:

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.Heb 7:12

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The context of Hebrews 7:11-17 is not about supplanting the Levitical priesthood, but of a priesthood which would supercede it with regard to dealing with sins. The continual sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood did not take away sin permanently.

Hebrews 7:11-17
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come-- one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." (v.17 quote from Psalm 110)

Zahava said:

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Romans 4:13 -16)

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Just prior to this Paul said:
Romans 4:12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Paul is saying there are two types of Christians, Gentile believers and Jewish believers. Gentile believers are Abraham's descendants in the sense that Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. They are of the faith of Abraham. Jewish Christians are also of the faith of Abraham AND of the physical descent of Abraham.

Zahava said:

2. Changing the Ordinances:

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, ... (Colos 2:14)

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Colos 2:20)

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Eph 2:15 refers to what has separated Jews from Gentiles whose lack of observance of the law rendered them ritually unclean. In Colossians Paul was dealing with a specific heretical group who was leading the Colossians astray. Paul wasn't forbidding observance of the law by Jewish Christians because he also said:
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Other passages where the law is upheld by Jewish believers are:
Acts 21:20 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Romans 3:29-31 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

And Jesus Himself said this:
Matthew 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Zahava said:

3. Breaking the Everlasting Covenant, i.e. the Sabbath, the Brit Milah or the everlasting priesthood.

Does not Christianity repudiate G-d's commandments by establishing a "new" Sabbath on the first day; the so-called "Lord's Day" (see Acts 20:7 and Revelation 1:10). This clearly ignores God's command that the Sabbath is for the Jews, the Children of Israel, ONLY. The Sabbath is not for Gentiles!

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No, the Sabbath has not changed, either the day or for the original intended audience. The Lord's Day is not a Sabbath replacement. Its a day that Christians commemorate because its the day we believe Jesus rose from the dead. Historically beginning with the Puritans some Christians have advocated a type of Sunday Sabbath, and that has caused confusion on the subject of the Sabbath among Christians.

Zahava said:

2. Brit melah -- as specified in:

This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised. And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you. (Genesis 17:10-11)

Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant. (Genesis 17:13-14)

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The NT speaks of circumcised believers - believing Jews - and uncircumcised believers - believing Gentiles. Believing Gentiles are not required to be circumcised to become believing Jews. Both the circumcised believing Jews and uncircumcised believing Gentiles are regarded as belonging to one body, the Church.

Zahava said:

Does not Christianity now spit in the face of G-d, speaking against the very people He chose for His special mission?

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (Galatians 5:2)

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I appreciate your honest question, but I don't think that its so. Paul said in Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Members together and sharers together mean that both believing Jews and believing Gentiles are equals.

Again with Galatians, Paul was speaking to Galatian Gentile Christians and warning them against going "halfway" and getting circumcised. Paul wasn't speaking of Jews. In fact Paul refused to circumcised Titus, a Gentile, while Paul circumcised Timothy, who was at least half-Jewish.

Zahava said:

A final word of wisdom from the real Bible, the Hebrew Bible -- a prophetic warning from Jeremiah:

Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Deuteronomy 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face
If any person goes against what Moses taught, which he learned straight from the Almighty....then one certainly should not listen to him.

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There were positive references to the Gentiles in the OT as well.

Genesis 18:18 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.

Christians hold that the nations on the earth have been blessed through Abraham's descendant, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 49:6 6 he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Amos 9:11-12 11 "In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be, 12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear my name," declares the LORD, who will do these things.

LDG

scratchingmyhead said:

Maybe I misunderstand Judaism, and hopefully you can help me out, but If I understand what you are saying correctly, is basically, Jesus can't be the Messiah because he changed some laws~almost making some of the laws irrelevant. Well, and I mean absolulty NO disrespect to you, but how come the Mosaic law of stoning to death for certain crimes is not practiced? I don't even think it's practiced in the ultra-orthodox communities or even in Israel is it? Will this be somethign reinstated when the Temple is rebuilt?
I don't mean to sound like a smart-alec but this is the only example I could think of.

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Well, actually, the biggest reason Jesus is not considered the Messiah to Jews is simply because he didn't do the things that the prophets proclaimed the messiah would do. That's the Jewish perspective. No debates, it won't change anything.

Yaacoviah said:

Well, actually, the biggest reason Jesus is not considered the Messiah to Jews is simply because he didn't do the things that the prophets proclaimed the messiah would do. That's the Jewish perspective. No debates, it won't change anything.

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Shalom. My understanding of Judaism is that their future Messiah will accomplish ALL thing within his lifetime.

If an Orthodox Jew converts to Christ-ianity, wouldn't he have to believe that JESUS the Messiah accomplished ALL things, including a new heaven, land, and jerusalem?
Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating New/02319 chadash heavens, and a New/02319 chadash land, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a heaven, New/kainon <2537> and a land, New/kainhn <2537>, for the first heaven and the first land pass away and the sea not is still.

Deleted

LittleLambofJesus said:

Shalom. My understanding of Judaism is that their future Messiah will accomplish ALL thing within his lifetime.

If an Orthodox Jew converts to Christ-ianity, wouldn't he have to believe that JESUS the Messiah accomplished ALL things, including a new heaven, land, and jerusalem?
Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating New/02319 chadash heavens, and a New/02319 chadash land, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a heaven, New/kainon <2537> and a land, New/kainhn <2537>, for the first heaven and the first land pass away and the sea not is still.

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Please, let's stick to Zahava's questions.

By the way Zahava, Zahava is a really pretty name.

Zahava said:

Shalom everyone. I am Jewish and would like the following answered CHARITABLY please. You can find this and other posts on my blog spot
zahava pasternak. blogspot. com (remove the spaces)

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Very well. I'll do my best to address the issues you've raised.

Zahava said:

Tehillim/Psalms 9:11 He hath sent redemption unto His people; He hath commanded His covenant for ever; Holy and awful is His name.

The Covenant of Sinai is Eternal

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Christians already believe that the covenant of Sinai is eternal, because it is eternally fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ, of whom Moses wrote:The God of Israel has raised up his Son Jesus Christ to fulfill the Law, and in doing so, to abolish the need for the commandments. It is precisely because the Law is eternal that God requires both Jew and Gentile to confess Jesus Christ in order to be saved. And no person, whether Jewish or Gentile, will be saved apart from confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.

According to the Rabbinic understanding of the Law, the eternal nature of the covenant implies that it is to be practiced throughout all ages. This understanding of "eternal" is demonstrably incorrect, because it makes God out to be a liar. The theocracy of Israel is currently defunct, and thus it is impossible to obey the Law. The Law requires full obedience, as you yourself admit.

Zahava said:

Deuteronomy 4:2 Every matter which I command you observe to do it; you shall not add to it, or subtract from it" Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deut. 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 29:28. The hidden things belong to the Lord, our God, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah.

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Instead, modern Rabbinic Jews have constructed a man-made religion in which some commandments are obeyed, and others are ignored out of convenience. On the contrary, both Jewish and Gentile Christians trust in the active obedience of Jesus Christ to uphold the entire Law without exception. Indeed Rabbinic Judaism intrinsically violates the Lord's commandment to not remove anything from the words of the Law.


Moreover, Rabbinic Judaism employs a misunderstanding of the eternal nature of God's covenant with Israel. It says,Now it is clear that in a Rabbinic Jewish framework, Israel currently lacks a king, as the nation is defunct. But the text of the Bible proposes the existence of a king as a test of Israel's faithfulness. If Judaism proposes a proper understanding of the Bible, then Jews are forced to confess that they have abandoned the Lord, and are currently worshiping other gods. Do you believe this is the case?

Christians propose that Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, that he reigns on David's throne as Israel's King, and that he will continue to reign until all of his enemies, both Jewish and Gentile, are under his feet. Thus the church, which is God's Israel, has Jesus as our King, and God's promise to the people of Israel is fulfilled in him.

Zahava said:

We see that the N.T. advocates all three of these things; that people transgress the laws, change the ordinance and break the everlasting covenants.

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On the contrary, the New Testament acknowledges all of the ordinances of God, and we trust in Christ to fulfill the Law and uphold the covenant.

Zahava said:

1. Transgressing the Law:
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, ... (Gal 3:13)

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The charge of transgression of the Law is again based on a faulty understanding of the eternal nature of the Law. It is clear from the Law that the Law is nullified by death. As it says,
It is through the sacrament of baptism that Christians die to the Law so that we may live to Christ. It says,The sacrament of baptism is viewed as a genuinely spiritual means by which God considers Jewish and Gentile believers to be dead to the Law of commandments and ordinances, and alive through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If either a Jew or a Gentile refuses to consider himself dead to the Law, then he must face the curse of Deuteronomy 27:26, because it is currently impossible for anyone to keep the Law.

Zahava said:

2. Changing the Ordinances:

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, ... (Colos 2:14)

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I feel the second passage is translated poorly. A better rendering is found in the ESV:It is not the ordinance of God itself that is canceled. Rather God cancels our transgression against the Law through the blood of Christ, for any Jew or Gentile who will believe in him. As to the former passage, the non-existence of the Temple is sufficient evidence that God has abolished the Law of commandments and ordinances. Indeed these ordinances cannot be properly obeyed by the admission of Orthodox Jews. Through the cross of Jesus, God destroyed the separation between Jews and Gentiles, making them into one body through the church. The destruction of these ordinances of separation is prefigured even in the Old Testament. We can see this from the commandment against the entry of Moabites into the people of Israel (Deuteronomy 23:3), which was transgressed by Ruth. But God showed his approval of this by making her into an ancestor of King David, and of Jesus Christ. Thus we can see that permanent obedience to the literal wording of the Law is not God's will.

Zahava said:

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Colos 2:20)

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This passage does not refer to the Law, but to Jewish additions to the Law, such as the Oral Torah.

Zahava said:

3. Breaking the Everlasting Covenant, i.e. the Sabbath, the Brit Milah or the everlasting priesthood.

1. Sabbath -- as specified in:

Thus shall the children of Israel observe the Sabbath, to make the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant. Between Me and the children of Israel, it is forever a sign that [in] six days The Lord created the heaven and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and rested." (Exodus (Shemot) 31:16-17)

Each and every Sabbath day, he shall set it up before the Lord [to be there] continuously, from the children of Israel an eternal covenant. (Leviticus (Vayikra) 24:8)

And He set it up for Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant. (Chronicles I (Divrei Hayamim I) 16:17)

Does not Christianity repudiate G-d's commandments by establishing a "new" Sabbath on the first day; the so-called "Lord's Day" (see Acts 20:7 and Revelation 1:10).

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This is a rather absurd argument, because the seventh day of the week is a relative thing. In France, for example, Sunday is the seventh day of the week.

Zahava said:

This clearly ignores God's command that the Sabbath is for the Jews, the Children of Israel, ONLY. The Sabbath is not for Gentiles!

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Theologically orthodox Christians have traditionally viewed the church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, to be the true Israel of God. Whereas those who merely call themselves ethnic Jews are not truly Israel, because no one can be a son of God merely by virtue of his ethnicity. However, I understand that as a Jew you do not believe this. But if you object on the basis that the Sabbath is only for Jews, then this would be inconsistent with the rest of your argument. You charge Gentile Christians with annulling the Law. But if the Law was given to Jews only, then it is impossible for Gentiles to do such a thing. Which is it? Are Gentiles bound to the Law, or aren't we?

Zahava said:

Does not Christianity now spit in the face of G-d, speaking against the very people He chose for His special mission?

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (Galatians 5:2)

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This passage refers to circumicision as a means of salvation. Elsewhere Paul, who wrote this epistle, practices circumcision himself.Thus your interpretation of the words of God's holy Apostle is quite wrong.

Zahava said:

3. Everlasting priesthood -- as specified in:

It shall be for him and for his descendants after him [as] an eternal covenant of kehunah, because he was zealous for his God and atoned for the children of Israel. (Numbers 25:13)

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Hebrews 7:12 )

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You have misunderstood the text, which says in context,
This refers to the Old Testament, which says,
The author's question stands: what need is there for a change of priesthood? The Old Testament itself acknowledges a priesthood in the order of Melchizedek, who had no genealogy. It can also be demonstrably shown that the priesthood of Aaron is defunct, which again would make God to be a liar by your interpretation. It makes more sense that the perpetual nature of the priesthood points to the eternal ministry of Jesus Christ, who acts as the church's high priest.

Zahava said:

A final word of wisdom from the real Bible, the Hebrew Bible -- a prophetic warning from Jeremiah:

Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Deuteronomy 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face
If any person goes against what Moses taught, which he learned straight from the Almighty....then one certainly should not listen to him.

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Again you are failing to understand the words of the holy prophets Moses and Jeremiah, who spoke about Jesus Christ. Jeremiah prophesied the inclusion of the Gentiles into God's people. And yet modern Judaism discourages preaching its alleged word of God to Gentiles. Thus you yourself confess that Judaism is not in accordance with the words of the prophets. But Jesus, on the contrary, spoke in accordance with the words of Jeremiah's warnings against false gods when he said,
Likewise his servant Paul, whom you have quoted many times, said,
Whereas Judaism confesses that false religions are valid means of reaching the true God, Christianity says, "By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar." Therefore Judaism violates the commandments of God through the prophets, whereas the Lord Jesus upholds all of them, and he offers salvation to both Jews and Gentiles who believe in him. The "real Bible" is not complete without the books of the New Testament, and salvation is not possible through Rabbinic Judaism or any other Gentile religion.

Zahava, do you have any comments to my previous post? To clarify my last paragraph in my earlier post, I do view Judaism as equivalent to Gentile (=false) religions, and I expect that you will disagree with me. I would be most interested to hear your response.

arunma said:

Zahava, do you have any comments to my previous post? To clarify my last paragraph in my earlier post, I do view Judaism as equivalent to Gentile (=false) religions, and I expect that you will disagree with me. I would be most interested to hear your response.

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You already know the response...

Yaacoviah said:

You already know the response...

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No, I don't. The Jewish religion is not in accordance with what Moses and the prophets wrote. Indeed it cannot be, because Moses and the prophets wrote about Jesus. There is no way for any religious view to teach the truth about God except through Jesus Christ.