Its about money!

Dave01 · Jul 29, 2007

Those who will not give, are by fruit showing what kind of tree they are.

Ooooh amen brother!

JimfromOhio · Jul 29, 2007

DavidPresently said:
God is interested in obedience - Spirit-led faith obedience. Not giving by compulsion doesn't mean we are to now stop giving what God commanded to the storehouses of ministry. I've already quoted where Paul tells us in his letters that the workers (ministers) are worthy to receive the natural gifts from those they are eternally benefiting.

Tithing, or obeying any commandment, will do no one any good if it isn't done in faith in the promise. If a Pharisee type (in the negative sense) tithes and gives offerings, he should, as Jesus said, but he must do so not leaving out the heavier matters of love and faith.

In the NC we are to have the Law written on our inner being, as the Bible states quite clearly. We are to walk by the Spirit leading us in such, and not by the flesh trying to do outer works to be righteous. If someone is giving tithes in such a manner, they are amiss. But if they give tithes and offerings because their heart is circumcised and the Law written on it, they do well, giving spiritually and truly, as a pure act of worship. In such they will be greatly blessed, while the dead religious person will not in their outward formalism only.

The only argument a truly circumcised (in heart) believer (which is the only true NC believer) should have against tithing is that they want to give more. We are never more like God then when we freely give to others. We are very unlike God when we hold on to "mine" and heap such on ourselves all the time, and then make excuses for why we shouldn't give to others, including ministers.

Those who have no heart to give, are evident by their fruit.

The condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to Jesus Christ, John 4:36 Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Luke 6:45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. Our human heart is very selfish. Our self-interest motives conduct even though it is part of our fallen nature, the cross is a symbol of the selfless, others-centered life of Christ. Give with love unselfishly, without thought of return. The return, never fear, will take care of itself by God according to His will.

Eila · Jul 29, 2007

DavidPresently said:
Romans 8:16-18 MKJV The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. (17) And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ; so that if we suffer with Him, we may also be glorified together. (18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed in us.

I'm quite content to be an heir. Take some time to think of what all God owns. You can't have any more than that. The suffering according to the gospel is persecutions, and the crucifying of the flesh as we take up our cross to follow him.

Carnal men lust for things they don't have. Spiritual children of God who know the truth know that they already have all of the blessings the heavens and earth have to offer, as their inheritance. Nothing to be discontent about over that. The discontent ones are those who either aren't true children of the Spirit, or are but are over in the carnal thinking on the matter.

The verses I quoted didn't say they were content to be an heir, but content with what they currently had.

In the new covenant all we have belongs to God and all He has is available to us. This is why we can be content in whatever circumstance because we know that He has us covered. He will always be there to meet our needs.

I don't see what this has to do with the excesses by some ministers/ministries.

Questioning Christian · Jul 29, 2007

I only have one little sentiment to add to this topic.

"According to your faith, be it unto you".

If you want to live in a cardboard box, be my guest.
If you want to live in your car, be my guest.
If you want to live in a homeless shelter, be my guest.
If you want to live in a housing project, be my guest.
If you want to live in a boarding house, be my guest.
If you want to live in a mobile home, be my guest.
If you want to live in an apartment, be my guest.
If you want to live in a townhome, be my guest.
If you want to live in a house, be my guest.
If you want to live in a mansion, be my guest.

But just know that where you live does neither equal nor define your spirituality. It's your life to live - rich, average, or poor. Live how you want.

charityagape · Jul 30, 2007

Eila said:
Ministers are not Christ, they are only part of the body of Christ. She anointed Him for burial. Giving a pastor a car does what?

It blesses him. God loves to bless his children.
Eila, here's a question. In God's mind how much is 300,000?

charityagape · Jul 30, 2007

Also, what good did Abraham's riches do for those in the world that were starving?

Eila · Jul 30, 2007

charityagape said:
It blesses him. God loves to bless his children.
Eila, here's a question. In God's mind how much is 300,000?

Yes, God does love to bless His children. $300K is nothing to God. We are called to be good stewards. I don't see how owning a $300K car is being a good steward. Our focus should be on bringing people into the kingdom. I see that money as wasted. I have no problem with a pastor having a nicer car than his congregation, but $300K (his and hers) is excessive and wasteful.

charityagape said:
Also, what good did Abraham's riches do for those in the world that were starving?

The Bible doesn't say.

Honestly, if you received a $300K car for a gift would you drive it or sell it and put the money to better use?

JimB · Jul 30, 2007

charityagape said:
It blesses him. God loves to bless his children.
Eila, here's a question. In God's mind how much is 300,000?

This reminds me.

A local church in our city, with a big population of bikers, gave their pastor a new Harley-Davidson (which he had absolute no need for) and it inspired a fellow church member, a friend of mine—one truly great husband, dad and a fabulous guitarist—to get him one, too. Three weeks after he bought it he ran it off the road and killed himself. The pastor was guilt-stricken, feeling that if he not gushed so much over the motorcycle his friend would not have bought his “death-bike”—the material gift became a curse, not a blessing, to to the pastor and to those who gave it to him. He says now that he wishes they would have given the cost of the bike to missions or a childrens’ home. Not only would our friend still be alive but the gift would have then been a true blessing.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.

probinson · Jul 30, 2007

Jimbeaux said:
This reminds me.

A local church in our city, with a big population of bikers, gave their pastor a new Harley-Davidson (which he had absolute no need for) and it inspired a fellow church member, a friend of mineone truly great husband, dad and a fabulous guitaristto get him one, too. Three weeks after he bought it he ran it off the road and killed himself. The pastor was guilt-stricken, feeling that if he not gushed so much over the motorcycle his friend would not have bought his death-bikethe material gift became a curse, not a blessing, to to the pastor and to those who gave it to him. He says now that he wishes they would have given the cost of the bike to missions or a childrens home. Not only would our friend still be alive but the gift would have then been a true blessing.

That's a horrible story, and my heart goes out to the people's whose lives were hurt.

But it's also a prime example of how Satan accuses us, trying to get us to take the blame for things that are absolutely not our fault in any way, shape or form.

JimB · Jul 30, 2007

probinson said:
That's a horrible story, and my heart goes out to the people's whose lives were hurt.

But it's also a prime example of how Satan accuses us, trying to get us to take the blame for things that are absolutely not our fault in any way, shape or form.

Maybe you are right. Maybe not.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.

probinson · Jul 30, 2007

Jimbeaux said:
Maybe you are right. Maybe not.

Let's review;

I am the pastor of my church.

My congregation blesses me with a motorcycle.

I in turn show my appreciation to my congregation for the gift they have given me.

Another man buys a motorcycle.

He drives it off the road and is killed.

Suddenly, I feel guilty for ACCEPTING A GIFT from my congregation.

Not only that, but now I've made my congregation feel guilty because they didn't give me a "true blessing". I've essentially thrown their gift back in their face, and heaped the guilt onto them as well. I've essentially told them that if only they had listened to God and been a "true blessing" our friend would still be alive (never mind the implication of that is that the congregation caused this "curse")

So now, I feel guilty because I accepted a gift. My congregation feels guilty because they gave me a gift. Everyone feels some sort of guilt, just for trying to honor their pastor.

All because they just wanted to give their pastor a gift.....

JimB · Jul 30, 2007

probinson said:
Let's review;

I am the pastor of my church.

My congregation blesses me with a motorcycle.

I in turn show my appreciation to my congregation for the gift they have given me.

Another man buys a motorcycle.

He drives it off the road and is killed.

Suddenly, I feel guilty for ACCEPTING A GIFT from my congregation.

Not only that, but now I've made my congregation feel guilty because they didn't give me a "true blessing". I've essentially thrown their gift back in their face, and heaped the guilt onto them as well. I've essentially told them that if only they had listened to God and been a "true blessing" our friend would still be alive (never mind the implication of that is that the congregation caused this "curse")

So now, I feel guilty because I accepted a gift. My congregation feels guilty because they gave me a gift. Everyone feels some sort of guilt, just for trying to honor their pastor.

All because they just wanted to give their pastor a gift.....

I can only tell you what happened and how everyone (even the givers of the gift) felt after it happened. The man who died, “Don”, was much-beloved by the congregation and (right or wrong, I will let them be the judge), they are conscience-stricken about their decision to give what they now feel was a frivolous (though expensive) gift to their pastor when there was other real needs that they should have given to. More than one of them who has talked to me about it feel this way, including the pastor. Did I mention that the pastor immediately sold the motorcycle and, while I am not sure where the money from the sale went, I know that the pastor feels like his congregation learned an expensive lesson about priorities.

Personally, I refuse to accept personal gifts from the members of the church I pastor, many of whom have far greater financial needs than I do, and have instructed our leaders to discourage personal gifts as well. If I receive a gift from a member they know that it will go to someone with a real financial need. At Christmas whatever gift may have been given to me goes to a local charity. You may think this is a strange practice but our members have learned to be selfless in their giving and I know that God, not people, “bless” me materially by providing for my needs (not my wants) and He does it without flattering gifts.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.

probinson · Jul 30, 2007

Jimbeaux said:
You may think this is a strange practice but out members have learned to be selfless in their giving and I know that God, not people, “bless” me materially by providing for my needs (not my wants) and it does it without flattering gifts.

Jim, what you do with gifts from your congregation is none of my business. If you feel that God has led you to give those gifts away, then by all means, give them away.

But your last statement is just, and I don't mean this to sound rude, silly.

God doesn't bless you materially. Seriously, when was the last time you cashed a check from God? In fact, the Bible tells us;

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

I have learned that when I don't accept a gift from someone, I am potentially robbing them of a blessing. Like you, I oftentimes will send that gift on to someone else, but by flat out refusing it, I may well be robbing someone of the opportunity to be a blessing.

Of course, you must follow the Spirit's leading, and there have been times when I have not accepted a gift because God said not to, but for the most part, when someone offers me a gift, I graciously accept it. It is the humble thing to do, to allow others to bless me.

We have to learn not only how to be cheerful givers, but we also have to learn how to be gracious receivers.

JimB · Jul 30, 2007

probinson said:
Jim, what you do with gifts from your congregation is none of my business. If you feel that God has led you to give those gifts away, then by all means, give them away.

But your last statement is just, and I don't mean this to sound rude, silly.

God doesn't bless you materially. Seriously, when was the last time you cashed a check from God? In fact, the Bible tells us;
Luke 6:38

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
I have learned that when I don't accept a gift from someone, I am potentially robbing them of a blessing. Like you, I oftentimes will send that gift on to someone else, but by flat out refusing it, I may well be robbing someone of the opportunity to be a blessing.

Of course, you must follow the Spirit's leading, and there have been times when I have not accepted a gift because God said not to, but for the most part, when someone offers me a gift, I graciously accept it. It is the humble thing to do, to allow others to bless me.

We have to learn not only how to be cheerful givers, but we also have to learn how to be gracious receivers.

Good point, Pete, and an excellent choice of scripture, I might add. I know that God uses men to provide everything I have and I do not want to depreciate peoples expressions of love. But I want them to give their resources where it is really needed. My wife and I are pretty comfortable financially and we really do not have a lot of material needs. I cannot say that about some of our memberssome are disabled, some on disability, some elderly living on Social Security, etc.and I cannot in good conscience accept gifts from these loving people. If they must give, I encourage them to give to one of our church family who has a need or to a charitable organization.

On a personal level, I also do not want to develop in my life an mind-set of entitlement, as though I somehow deserve bonus gifts because of my position. I believe in a servant-leader leadership style where I serve from the bottom of the pyramid, not the top. It works for us.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.

churchlady · Jul 30, 2007

Jimbeaux said:
and I know that God, not people, bless me materially by providing for my needs (not my wants) and He does it without flattering gifts.

~Jim

Saying that God only provides your needs and not your wants, pictures Him as less loving than a good human parent.

When I was raising my boys, I provided their needs, and very much took into consideration their particular wants, too. When I thought it wouldn't hurt them or make them too self-centered, I provided those too.

God is like that too.

flyingsum0 · Jul 30, 2007

Yeah God will always hook you up cause He's God.

Tamara224 · Jul 30, 2007

It really does surprise me that there are so many Christians who defend this prosperity anti-gospel.

I'm sorry, but it just can't be done Biblically without twisting Scripture beyond recognition.

Our treasures are in heaven. Our inheritence is a Spiritual inheritence.

If your focus is on temporal material wealth, your focus is wrong! It doesn't matter how you try to justify it.

How many warnings must God give us about the dangers of material wealth before we realize that He simply does not want us to focus on such things?

God does not need money to further His Kingdom. He doesn't need to be on radio or TV. He doesn't need preachers to have fancy cars, jets, houses and clothes. He doesn't need us to live in luxury. He doesn't need us to have cathedrals and stained glass windows.

We don't need to be wealthy to preach the Gospel! Anyone who says we do is preaching a different gospel than the one Jesus taught us. It is nothing but worldly, fleshly desires which would prompt a person to say "I need more money to be content, happy, peaceful."

What is the difference between us and the world? The world around us grasps for money as if it will answer all their problems. And we, we pretend to have something BETTER. Then we spout the same crap the world does.

1 Timothy 6:3-10
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Ruin and destruction! Those are very strong terms.

Matthew 6:19-24
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.
23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

We have fairly recent examples of men who focused on wealth and how this led them into "temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction." Look at Jim Bakker - one day he's preaching prosperity the next day he's defrauding people and visiting prostitutes. But do we learn anything from it? No, we just put the pedestal back up with a different preacher on it.

The Bible never lies. People who want to get wealthy fall into all sorts of temptations, traps, ruin and destruction. Because their focus is wrong... they stopped serving God and served wealth instead.

simpleone · Jul 30, 2007

Tamara224 said:
It really does surprise me that there are so many Christians who defend this prosperity anti-gospel.

I'm sorry, but it just can't be done Biblically without twisting Scripture beyond recognition.

Our treasures are in heaven. Our inheritence is a Spiritual inheritence.

If your focus is on temporal material wealth, your focus is wrong! It doesn't matter how you try to justify it.

How many warnings must God give us about the dangers of material wealth before we realize that He simply does not want us to focus on such things?

God does not need money to further His Kingdom. He doesn't need to be on radio or TV. He doesn't need preachers to have fancy cars, jets, houses and clothes. He doesn't need us to live in luxury. He doesn't need us to have cathedrals and stained glass windows.

We don't need to be wealthy to preach the Gospel! Anyone who says we do is preaching a different gospel than the one Jesus taught us. It is nothing but worldly, fleshly desires which would prompt a person to say "I need more money to be content, happy, peaceful."

What is the difference between us and the world? The world around us grasps for money as if it will answer all their problems. And we, we pretend to have something BETTER. Then we spout the same crap the world does.

1 Timothy 6:3-10
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Ruin and destruction! Those are very strong terms.

Matthew 6:19-24
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.
23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

We have fairly recent examples of men who focused on wealth and how this led them into "temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction." Look at Jim Bakker - one day he's preaching prosperity the next day he's defrauding people and visiting prostitutes. But do we learn anything from it? No, we just put the pedestal back up with a different preacher on it.

The Bible never lies. People who want to get wealthy fall into all sorts of temptations, traps, ruin and destruction. Because their focus is wrong... they stopped serving God and served wealth instead.

I like this post.

JimB · Jul 30, 2007

simpleone said:
I like this post.

Me, too.

~Jim

I am master of my unspoken words.

Strong in Him · Jul 30, 2007

churchlady said:
Saying that God only provides your needs and not your wants, pictures Him as less loving than a good human parent.

No it doesn't because our wants may be selfish and not in line with his will. I could say that I want £1,000,000, and I want it so that I can leave my husband, buy myself a house and have money to live on. Of course I could also use it for good - making a donation to the church, maybe even buying the church, putting myself through Bible college (not that I yet have any plans to go), paying for another minister etc etc. But the real want for the money was to get out of my marriage. Would God grant me that want?

My parents didn't buy, or give, me everything I wanted; if they had've done I might have grown up to be spoilt, selfish, demanding, undisciplined, not understanding the value of anything or respecting anyone.

Its about money!

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