What would option 3 look like

thereselittleflower said:

As I said in the other thread, I believe we are putting the cart in front of the horse, and the first thing we need to do is visit the vision for this site.

Right now it is "uniting all christians into one body".

Such a vision is impossible to acheive. That is just being pragmatic and logical. It is not within the scope of a website, any website, to acheive such a vision and lofty, noble goal. An impossible goal sets one up for failure.

Before we can decide how to structure CF in a way that will work, we need to have a vision that is workable, doable, acheivable.

As I proposed in the other thread, that vision should be more about understanding one another . .

So, Erwin, may I propose that the vision of CF be changed to something along these lines:

"Promoting understanding, fellowship and ministiry among christians and chrsitian witness to the world."

That is much more acheivable than trying to unify all christians, and doesn't set us up for failure.


Then it is much easier to see how to structure CF.


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A MILLION PERCENT!!!

Loki said:

The reason I returned was because I'd heard that the Congregational fora had been opened.

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Why is that? Why would you want to post in the congregationals if you are not part of a congregation? I personally can't stand the congregationals. I used to be confined to UTD because of my beliefs, and now that I am a Nicene Creed-observant Christian, I still post almost exclusively in UTD (now Non-Nicene Theology). I just never understood why everyone was/is clamboring to post in the congregationals.

EveryPrayerCounts said:

Erwin, I love this site. I have put a lot into it over the last four years. It's been a blessing to me.

Some of the changes that have happened are good, but some need to go. Here's what I think needs to be done:

-Make the rules concrete. No more Wiki.

-Bring back the Niccene Creed.

-Make Staff Christian Only

What I like about the new site:

-Non-Christians can post with the Christians.

-The transparency (although I wouldn't mind a private forum for staff, it's not neccasary. PM's work. This way all members can see what happens in the super sekrit staff forum).


That's just my $.02

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This is pretty close to how I feel, too.

keep the board open for everybody! It's more fun that way. I don't follow any creed or declaration...just the bible as the word of God. I do think Christians need just one small space for fellowship with each other without debate from non-Christians. Staff do need their private forums. We've seen nothing but trouble with keeping the staff forums open...members fighting over reported posts which make the job so much more difficult. We shouldn't have non-Christians as staff. This is a huge one and so many staffers would return if you made staff Christian only. And GET RID OF THE STUPID WKI! It only creates more issues than it helps. We need a concrete set of rules.

sparklecat said:

In terms of the Wikis, my experience has been that the core site rules Wiki has been going quite well, and that it's the subforum and smaller issue ones that end up bogged down and problematic. Perhaps some sort of hybrid system could be managed?

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Possibly what we need is a CF Constitution. A central set of simple rules covering the most important areas; administrative stuff, such as who can post/debate/mod where, how the wiki system is to run etc, as well as things directly pertaining to Erwin's vision, such as who can be considered Christian, etc etc. Those central rules would still be open to change, but only with the support of a sufficiently large supermajority.

It seems to me that this would provide the flexibility and community participation of a Wiki system while still providing structure and direction.

I just think we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It has only been a few weeks and some very good things have come about from the new vision.

• Core rules have been developed via wiki. They are good, simple, easy to moderate rules. We should keep those!
• Polls are tools of the devil. No rule or site decision should be made by a poll.
• Keep the forums open but give the congregational areas tools to close certain threads or areas within their groups.
• Provide tools so that voting priviliges cannot be abused.
• Bring back infractions but only for the most severe issues such as those that may affect the rule making process. I would include sock voting and unsubstantiated accusations against those who are on the opposing point of view. No Proof=Extreme Flame.
• Revelation of private information by staff would be a bannable offense if done on purpose and to influence a decision.
• Visibility and Accountablility, the two best things of New CF.
• Guidelines on the Wiki Process
• There should be some kind of way to resolve stalemates. Perhaps, if a stalemate is reached, then, this would be a rule that executives would have to make a final decision on based on the discussion in the wiki process.

That is all I have for now. If I think of more, I will add to my 2 cents, but y'all a'int getting more than a dollars worth from me!

Lisa

ZACTAK said:

I posted this in the other forum, before I saw this, but I think it is more fitting here...

A few pages back, Erwin asked about what types of changes we could see at CF. Since he asked, I am going to state what I feel should be the changes made.

1. Return the Christians Only area that encompasses ALL Christians... including the unorthodox Christians... that might not be a popular item, but I personally believe a person who believes Jesus is God is a Christian, who am I to judge their heart?

2. No forced icon changes. If a person states they are Christian, allow them to carry a Christian icon... encompass into the rules a rule stating that if a person talks against the Bible within the CO area, make it so it is a rule violation to do so.

3. Return the Open threads, where a person can choose whether or not they want to have the thread open to everyone.

4. Within some of the CO areas, allow for a subforum where everyone for the entire site can post. For example, have a CO men's discussion and an everyone men's discussion. If people are afraid the site would grow too large, then have only certain areas have a subforum.

5. No non-Christians on staff, however make it so they do have a voice. Have a non-Christian team possibly where they have access to post in all staff forums in which they can voice their concerns for the non-Christians. Also, continue with them being able to be on the armory team and other privileges we all have here.

6. Continue with the transparency. I was against this at first, but I think being able to see the reports and being able to participate in them is a good thing.. possibly make some restrictions so the reports do not get out of hand.

7. Have a set of rules that cannot change on a whim.. in other words, get a rid of the wiki. Condense the rules and don't have so many of them.

8. Bring back the warnings and infractions, but make them all appealable. If a person is causing problems, they are not going to learn by continuously getting warned, they unfortunately need consequences.

9. Have a conciliator team made up of unbiased members that will have access to the staff forums and regular forums. They will fight for equality and deal with conflicts within the staff as well as with the members... basically have staff/staff conflict resolution and staff/member conflict resolution. This team would be made up of anyone that can fulfill the job, and there will be one or several conciliators assigned to particular teams. They would also make sure things are being done ethically and the policies are being adhered to.

10. Within the appeals process, have a special team that listens to the appeals. This people would be the ones that understand the policies and procedures very well. This way, they will not be biased towards a team.. like the administrators of each team could have been while listening to appeals before.

11. Keep the Congregational areas open to everyone for those that are curious about the different denominations. Of course close that area off to debating, but people that are interested of any faith or non-faith can go there and discuss or ask questions about that denomination.

And if people do not like my suggestion of having a CO only area, then I would suggest having an open to everyone area, and then on the important forums, such as men's discussion have a CO area.. so there are not as many CO areas, but there are some, just for us Christians who want a special area just for us.

These are my proposals, I know there are a lot of them.. and I have given this some thought before, if you can't tell.

I think with the right amount of motivation CF could actually become a great place to be, like it once was... and I am NOT referring to the old system. God bless.

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The only other thing I would add is keep the secret Concillator forums open as well. I think if staff areas are open, so should all areas be open.

I have been thinking a bit about the wiki.

It seems to me that wiki technology is good for drafting and discussing rules. What it lacks is a way of finalizing rules (to use the technical term, engrossing them). The snapshots taken by Admins have been an informal way of engrossing rules and are probably the best that can be done right now. There should be a more orderly way of doing that.

This site cannot determine who is and who is not Christian. Members of Staff cannot determine it either. Wheat and tares, and all that stuff. You are all probably familiar with my position by now.

What this site and members of Staff can determine is whether posts are off-topic or abusive. Not perfectly, of course, but fairly well.

If we approached the problem of "Christians only" areas from the perspective of judging what was posted rather than who posted it, I think we could reach a workable system of moderation.

CaDan said:

What it lacks is a way of finalizing rules (to use the technical term, engrossing them).

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It's perhaps worth noting that votes at Wikipedia aren't democratic, as such. In general, members can't simply vote; they have to provide a justification for their vote. This can be as simple as pointing to another member's justification with which you agree; you don't have to write an essay. Then a Wikipedia admin will look over the vote and use it to inform their decision. Usually, the majority position will win, but ultimately the decision rests with the admin.

Point being, 'Wiki' does not have to be synonymous with 'mob rule.'

EveryPrayerCounts said:

Erwin, I love this site. I have put a lot into it over the last four years. It's been a blessing to me.

Some of the changes that have happened are good, but some need to go. Here's what I think needs to be done:

-Make the rules concrete. No more Wiki.

-Bring back the Niccene Creed.

-Make Staff Christian Only

What I like about the new site:

-Non-Christians can post with the Christians.

-The transparency (although I wouldn't mind a private forum for staff, it's not neccasary. PM's work. This way all members can see what happens in the super sekrit staff forum).


That's just my $.02

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This idea has merits. I'd love to see it discussed further though.

thereselittleflower said:

As I said in the other thread, I believe we are putting the cart in front of the horse, and the first thing we need to do is visit the vision for this site.

Right now it is "uniting all christians into one body".

Such a vision is impossible to acheive. That is just being pragmatic and logical. It is not within the scope of a website, any website, to acheive such a vision and lofty, noble goal. An impossible goal sets one up for failure.

Before we can decide how to structure CF in a way that will work, we need to have a vision that is workable, doable, acheivable.

As I proposed in the other thread, that vision should be more about understanding one another . .

So, Erwin, may I propose that the vision of CF be changed to something along these lines:

"Promoting understanding, fellowship and ministiry among christians and chrsitian witness to the world."

That is much more acheivable than trying to unify all christians, and doesn't set us up for failure.


Then it is much easier to see how to structure CF.


.

Click to expand...

This is an excellent point.

Unity at all costs has too high a pricetag.

I think we need to recognise that we disagree fundamentally on some things, and that that is ok. Not that there is no truth - there is truth. God knows that - he does not have multiple truths - just one. We are all obviously trying to discover that truths. Humility being the key - we work out our faith in fear and trembling, encouraging and teaching and humbly recongnising that we may be the ones that are wrong.

That being said - we should not be ashamed to sketch some outlines of some boundries - that's where I think somethign like the creed is important. There is some point where things stop being able to be called christian. It is ok to draw a line in the sand for the sake of the site functioning. It is ok for the owner to define what he thinks is fundamentally important to Chrisitianity - it is his site.

Letalis said:

Most important item for me.

Christian orthodoxy is important, and moving away from it would be a mistake, IMO.

ETA: Not to say I think we should go back to enforcing icons, but I do think the site's goal should include promoting orthodox Christianity.

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I prefer orthoPRAXY over orthodoxy. It's easy to pretend you have the right beliefs - harder to fake right actions.

erin74 said:

This is an excellent point.

Unity at all costs has too high a pricetag.

I think we need to recognise that we disagree fundamentally on some things, and that that is ok. Not that there is no truth - there is truth. God knows that - he does not have multiple truths - just one. We are all obviously trying to discover that truths. Humility being the key - we work out our faith in fear and trembling, encouraging and teaching and humbly recongnising that we may be the ones that are wrong.

That being said - we should not be ashamed to sketch some outlines of some boundries - that's where I think somethign like the creed is important. There is some point where things stop being able to be called christian. It is ok to draw a line in the sand for the sake of the site functioning. It is ok for the owner to define what he thinks is fundamentally important to Chrisitianity - it is his site.

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I second it , and agree with what you wrote as well.

GreenMunchkin said:

Wiki has got to go. It's a ridiculous system where even most of the staff don't know what rules are valid, much less the members. It's simply too fluid. And it *is* determined by the people who have the most stamina to stay in a thread and argue it out, or by who can get more people to agree with them. That's mob rule. It doesn't have a single benefit that won't also exist with another system.

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It's only like that right now because it is the beginning of the system. Given time, things will settle down. You don't build a Castle over night.

Purifying FLAME said:

I prefer orthoPRAXY over orthodoxy. It's easy to pretend you have the right beliefs - harder to fake right actions.

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They're both equally important. Like understanding it's not right to blatantly insult people, without that understanding, you can't put into practice the idea of not blatantly insulting people.

Staff shouldn't be voted in. It's a popularity contest and creates mistrust both for members and within staff ranks.

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BTW so that we have some accuracy here this has always been how mods were put into position, they were voted in by the moderationship or Administration. So either way it is a popularity contest.

Ok my thoughts for option 3

Bring back the Nicene or Apostles' creed

WIKI has to go as a means of determining policy, guidelines, and rules. It creates too much flux and is too chaotic. We need something that we can rely on more, not something that can change at a whim.

We do need two sections of the board ... One for Christians only and one where we can interact with everyone. I don't think they necessarily have to be two boards though. I think this separation is necessary only so we may have time to interact with people of like mind and learn from people of other Orthodox Christian Faiths unfettered.

I also believe that our boards however should be opened up more to Non and UnOrthodox Christians.

I have seen the work of some of the non-Christian mods here and I think of it highly. I also think that they have been fair and unbiased when doing it.

I also want the transparency to stay I think that is working well.

I do however think that the Warning system should be re-instituted because then that calls for accountability.

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