How? How do microorganisms affect C14 dating?
Who exactly proved this? The person that was brought up as a expert on C-14 dating and the shroud on this thread says is from the 14th century.
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Shroud of Turin proven genuine by REAL science
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How? How do microorganisms affect C14 dating?
Who exactly proved this? The person that was brought up as a expert on C-14 dating and the shroud on this thread says is from the 14th century.
Really now? Where are the sides of the face and the ears? If the shroud was draped around a real head, the image would be a circle and not a oval face. The 3D evidence that souljah brought shows that the object that created it was only an inch or so deep.
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The mummies false C14 datings show that burial wrappings of that type can't be dated with C14.
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Freodin
Devout believer in a theologically different God
The question of a sceptical unbeliever: (Yes, I know: I am spiritually blind and wouldn´t know a miracle if it hit me with a sledgehammer)
IF the shroud really was from the 1. Century and
IF the shroud really was from Palestine and
IF the image really was the impression of a crucified human...
...how would you know that it was Jesus image?
IF the shroud really was from the 1. Century and
IF the shroud really was from Palestine and
IF the image really was the impression of a crucified human...
...how would you know that it was Jesus image?
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We wouldnt, we would take it on faith given the evidence that supports that idea. You cant prove the Sun will shine tomorrow, can you?
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Except the shroud of turin is not from a mummy. You wouldn't happen to have evidence that says that microorganisms affect the shroud of turin dating?
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VOW
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To Freodin:
The wounds on the Figure shown on the Shroud coincide completely with all of the wounds of Christ described in the Bible.
Aside from the nail marks which indicate Crucifixion, the Figure has the following wounds:
--lash marks and wounds on the back and shoulders made by the dumbbell-shaped weights affixed to the lash tips of whips used during Roman times: these coincide with the scourging ordered by Pontius Pilate in John 19:1
--small piercings on the forehead and scalp: these coincide with the Crown of Thorns in John 19:2
--abrasions across the tops of the shoulders: these coincide with carrying the crosspiece of the Cross in John 19:17
--a wound in the side, with a flow of blood and a watery substance: this coincides with one Roman soldier who thrust a lance in the side of Christ, and blood and water flowed out in John 19:34
--no deformity indicative of broken bones is indicated: this coincides with John 19:36
It was a common practice of the Romans to break the legs of the condemned while they were on the cross, to hasten death by suffocation. And there are archaeological remains which show crucifixion victims who had bones either penetrated or broken by the nails themselves. These characteristics are not present in the Figure on the Shroud.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
The wounds on the Figure shown on the Shroud coincide completely with all of the wounds of Christ described in the Bible.
Aside from the nail marks which indicate Crucifixion, the Figure has the following wounds:
--lash marks and wounds on the back and shoulders made by the dumbbell-shaped weights affixed to the lash tips of whips used during Roman times: these coincide with the scourging ordered by Pontius Pilate in John 19:1
--small piercings on the forehead and scalp: these coincide with the Crown of Thorns in John 19:2
--abrasions across the tops of the shoulders: these coincide with carrying the crosspiece of the Cross in John 19:17
--a wound in the side, with a flow of blood and a watery substance: this coincides with one Roman soldier who thrust a lance in the side of Christ, and blood and water flowed out in John 19:34
--no deformity indicative of broken bones is indicated: this coincides with John 19:36
It was a common practice of the Romans to break the legs of the condemned while they were on the cross, to hasten death by suffocation. And there are archaeological remains which show crucifixion victims who had bones either penetrated or broken by the nails themselves. These characteristics are not present in the Figure on the Shroud.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
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extrinsic C14 incorporation in the linen of the shroud has been proposed by Researchers J. Mattingly and L. Garza-Vermes at the University of Texas in San Antonio, experts on the biogenic varnishes deposited on archaeological artifacts by bacteria and fungi. Upon examination of the shroud by Dr. Garza, heavy contamination was found. The radiocarbonists who tested the shroud samples also measured the C14 of the bacteria, fungi, and the bioplastic varnish deposited as a result of the symbiosis between the two organisms. The 1988 radiocarbon dating is the result of an averaging of the remaining C14 of the original linen with that of the microorganisms Lichenothelia and Rhodococcus and their resultant calcium carbonate varnish.
http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm
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Its doubtful, due to the detail of the whipping wounds. (They match Roman whips perfectly as they have rounded impact marks, which are unique)
The coins on the eyes were not described in the Bible either.
You can always question specific aspects of the Shroud, but when you look at all the facts together, it is obvious that it cant be a hoax.
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VOW
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To RA:
I posted a link detailing how contaminants can skew C-14 dating, in Post #51.
Basically the answer is this: C-14 dating is used to determine the age of a living organism beginning from the time of death. A living organism stops ingesting carbon in a fixed ration of C-12 to C-14, so the amount of decay of the C-14 can give an indication of the time that has passed since the organism died. In the instance of the Shroud, the date would be determined from the time the flax plant was harvested to create the linen cloth.
However, if a LIVING ORGANISM is present on the surface of the cloth, those particular live forms are still ingesting carbon, in the fixed ratio of C-12 to C-14. Therefore, the sample will contain more C-14 than it would if it contained just the linen alone.
I really don't think we need to get into an intense discussion of radioisotopes and half-lives and rates of decay.
Peace,
~VOW
I posted a link detailing how contaminants can skew C-14 dating, in Post #51.
Basically the answer is this: C-14 dating is used to determine the age of a living organism beginning from the time of death. A living organism stops ingesting carbon in a fixed ration of C-12 to C-14, so the amount of decay of the C-14 can give an indication of the time that has passed since the organism died. In the instance of the Shroud, the date would be determined from the time the flax plant was harvested to create the linen cloth.
However, if a LIVING ORGANISM is present on the surface of the cloth, those particular live forms are still ingesting carbon, in the fixed ratio of C-12 to C-14. Therefore, the sample will contain more C-14 than it would if it contained just the linen alone.
I really don't think we need to get into an intense discussion of radioisotopes and half-lives and rates of decay.
Peace,
~VOW
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Here is what a forger had to do:
1. The forger first painted the bloodstains before he painted the image.
2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.
3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.
4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.
5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.
6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.
7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.
9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.
10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.
11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.
12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.
13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.
14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.
If the Shroud of Turin is a forgery of the 14th century, as the radiocarbonists claim, and not a genuine artifact of the 1st century, all of these qualities of the purported medieval "forger" must be accepted. If the Shroud was "forged" it would have to have been painted.
1. The forger first painted the bloodstains before he painted the image.
2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.
3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.
4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.
5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.
6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.
7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.
9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.
10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.
11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.
12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.
13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.
14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.
If the Shroud of Turin is a forgery of the 14th century, as the radiocarbonists claim, and not a genuine artifact of the 1st century, all of these qualities of the purported medieval "forger" must be accepted. If the Shroud was "forged" it would have to have been painted.
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This article was published in 3 parts in The Glyph, the journal of The Archaeological Institute of America, San Diego, Vol 1, No. 10 (Sept 1997); No. 11 (Dec 1977); No. 12 (March 1998).
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The forger knew this for the same reason we do. He could read Latin.
The forger knew this for the same reason we do. He could read Latin.
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To Souljah:
I think the forger was also incredibly intuitive to locate a strip of linen containing the weave characteristic of 1st Century Palestine and imbed within the weave pollen particles also indigenous to not only 1st Century Palestine, BUT ALSO the time of year of the actual Crucifixion as described in Scripture.
Depicting the TWO SEPARATE blood flow patterns, showing how the Crucifixion Figure in the Shroud had to raise and lower himself in order to breathe was also a very clever ploy of the forger, considering that blood spatter patterns is a relatively new forensic investigative study.
Peace,
~VOW
I think the forger was also incredibly intuitive to locate a strip of linen containing the weave characteristic of 1st Century Palestine and imbed within the weave pollen particles also indigenous to not only 1st Century Palestine, BUT ALSO the time of year of the actual Crucifixion as described in Scripture.
Depicting the TWO SEPARATE blood flow patterns, showing how the Crucifixion Figure in the Shroud had to raise and lower himself in order to breathe was also a very clever ploy of the forger, considering that blood spatter patterns is a relatively new forensic investigative study.
Peace,
~VOW
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