Jesus the Christ?

Just to address those two issues -

It is not saying "Elijah and John are the same person", but only that they had the same type of prophetic function.

As to Mary's lineage, Solomon's line was eventually cursed and disallowed from sitting on the thrown ever again (I'll have to try and find the reference again). So, Mary being Nathan's descendant allows Jesus to still come from the house of David while side-stepping the curse on Solomon's line.

"Good answer on the lineage. However, wouldn't that make David a false prophet? He said that Solomon's line would rule forever.

And could you expand on the curse a bit more... just for reference. I like where you're headed with this so far"

I'll jump in here if its OK. The Lord Jesus has the two genealogies, Mary's side in Luke, and Joseph's side in Matthew. On the side of Joseph, although a direct descendant of Solomon, Joseph was considered a son of Heli, Mary's father. See Luke 3:23b

This may be because of Numbers 27:1-8 and 36:1-12 regarding parents who only have only daughters, that the inheritance would go to the daughters who marry a man from their own tribe, keeping the inheritance in their own tribe.

In Luke 3:23b. The literal translation of "as was supposed," in the KJV is "according to law"
So the line of Solomon is joined by law to the line of Mary, both of whom were descendents of David brought together by the Lord's soveringty.

shalom

" Now if someone could explain very plainly about Elijah and John the Baptist being the same person.
Please address the scriptures: Matt. 17:3; Luke 9:30; and Mark 9:4-5.
Also address Malachi 4:5-6 and how John the Baptist fulfilled this prophesy, and John 1:21 where JtB states he is not Elijah."

For the three instances in Matt, Mark, and Luke, they refer to transfiguration. On a high mountain far away from civilization, culture and religion, in a private way, the Lord was "unzipped" displaying His marvelous divinity. And as such He was, having fellowship with Moses and Elijah.

As far as Elijah and JtB being the same, there is the explanation given by the angel Gabriel to Zachariah in Luke 1:13-17. Here the angel says that JtB will go forth in the "spirit and power of Elijah." Also note here that John the Babtist, far away from religion and culture, eating bugs and dressed with the hair of unclean animals, a wild man, was the forunner of Christ.

This surely indicates that something completely different was coming, something apart from the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah).

I believe Malachi 4:5 may refer to the coming tribulation and that Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses there in Revelation, the two olive trees and the two sons of oil in Zech 4:3,11-14.

Malachi 4:6 refers to JtB with the spirit of Elijah, turning the hearts of the fathers.

It is always good to turn our hearts to the Lord and enjoy Him in His unsearchable riches as our wonderful Christ in an intimate way on the mountaintop.

Shalom

sthatting said:

However, wouldn't that make David a false prophet? He said that Solomon's line would rule forever.

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Not really - if you read the Chronicles passage, there's a condition: "if he be constant to do my commandments". When Solomon's line eventually strayed from God, they broke the condition allowing their "forever" rule.

sthatting said:

Could you post the verse addresses here just for reference?

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It's the same Chronicles passage from your OP, that's why I didn't give the reference. You gave 1Chron.28:4-6, I just added verse 7.

sthatting said:

I've been doing quite a bit of research on this for a while. I come from a Jewish background, but never FULLY accepted Jesus as the Messiah. I would like to ask a favor of all of you that are interested.

Please prove to me that Jesus Christ was, in fact, the Christ.

I would look fondly upon Old Testament passages of scripture, and lots of logic. Some things I'm having a hard time would include (so please attempt to address these issues):

- Elijah and John the Baptist being the same person. (I reference Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13; Malachi 4:5-6; John 1:21)
- Mary's genealogy problem [goes through Nathan instead of Solomon (Luke 3:31; I Chronicles 28:4-6)]

That's all at the moment. I look forward to your responses.

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Firstly, since Jesus of Nazareth was resurrected from the dead in order to vindicate his life and ministry as being authentic (Rom.1:4) He is still the Messiah and will remain so forever.

Secondly, since you are coming at this from a Jewish perspective, I should like to recommend to you the following titles:

Christianity Is Jewish by Edith Schaeffer http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Jewish-Edith-Schaffer/dp/0842302425

A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by David Stern http://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Jewish-Manifesto-David-Stern/dp/9653590022

I believe that you would find those two books (which you can also get from your local public lending library) extremely interesting.

I also recommend that you check out some of my other posts where I apologize for the Trinitarian Nature of God and His Incarnation as the Messiah (click on my name in green (top left) and select from the drop-down menu that appears).

Simonline.

The new covenant is written in Jer 31:31-34 and again by Paul in Hebrews 8:8-12 ... if one reads it is is an unconditional [unmerited] forgiveness of BOTH Houses of still-divided Israel, both the Jews [visible Israel , the House of Judah] and the non-Jewish Hous of Israel , that disappeared in being scarttered amongst all the gentile nations ...

The task of the messiah [the annointed one, in Greek 'christois', Christ] in the OT and the NT, is to gather the two Houses together as one nation and be one king over them and so make them a kingdom of priests as promised by God Himself :-

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Jesus identifies with this task as messiah by saying that he is only sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel [and he uses the Jews as disciples to continue the work after his death :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.[messiah]

When he returns we find that ALL those he takes are indeed of TRIBAL Israel, by name of the sons of Jacob , from both Houses ... thus indeed a remnant of Israel are the only firstfruits sealed in the spirit [Rev 7:3-8]

So why does he not take all Israel, since Paul says clearly that all Israel are saved , and Moses reports that the whole nation will be holy priests in the kingdom of the messiah ? :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Paul then clearly associates Jesus with the deliverer of Israel who emerges from Jerusalem...

So let us see, God sets up His kingdom after Jesus' return and all israel are taken as priests in the kingdom once it is established in other than the hearts of those of Israel who are mentioned in the new covenant of grace to Israel's two Houses...

clearly a priesthood needs a populace to minister too, its function is to serve, and the only ones they can serve are the masses of the gentiles ... and indeed that is what comes afterward [Rev 7:9-10] , inumerable gentiles all asking for salvation to God, but they are saved nly after the priesthood... rather obvious really ,but it says so very clearly at the beginning of Rev 7:9 and most people ignore that...

So why?... again it is rather obvious, most of Israel died as sinners not believing in Jesus the messiah , so theycannot live until after the SECOND resurrection [the first being for the firstfruit saints who died before Jesus returned] ... thus the priesthood of the whole of Israel cannot even be set up until after the second resurrection, nor can the sinners of the gentiles live until then either, since Jesus has said that he cannot take ANY sinners at his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[sin!]

So that is whgy most Jews do not yet accept Jesus, he has not shown them that he is their king ,their messiah , and they do not realise that he will NOT be their king in this earth! :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

NOR do manu Jews or paganised house of Israel know that they will be kings and priests on the earth, but thuis the new earth , not THIS earth :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Thus christian priests do not realise that no priests of the new covenant are ordianed by God yet at all [christian priests are all ordiined by men, sinners! , and are not members of the order of Melchisedec, but belong to human orders of sinner priests]

It is thus very interesting that neither Christians nor Jews understand the scriptures of God yet .... but God has revelaed all truth to His few saints of this world [John 16:13]

Sthatting, Zspeedyrabit was baptized in Christ (Church of Christ) in May of 2006. Since November of 2006 Zspeedyrabit has become a witness to spiritual truths by way of the spiritual gifts through the Helper (the Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit is a daily companion. Communications from the Holy Spirit are predominantely external though some communications are internal. The relationship with the Holy Spirit is only possible through Christ. If Christ were not the sinnless Son of God Zspeedyrabit would not be saved from destruction and have spiritual gifts by way of the Holy Spirit. Zspeedyrabit is a real person, that which has been stated herein is true.

The way to prove that Jesus was/is the Messiah is through the prophecies, right?

Peter Stoner in "Science Speaks" (Moody Press, 1963) takes just eight of the Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ - not all of them, just eight - and shows that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. He says, "We find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10(17th)." That would be one in 100,000,000,000,000,000. And then to help us understand this staggering figure, he illustrates it by supposing that "we take 10(17th) silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas (approximate area : 263,000 square miles). They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes," anywhere in the state. But he must pick up the silver dollar that was marked. What chance would he have of getting the right one? "Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote them in their own wisdom."

Evidently this business of fulfilling prophecy isn't so easy. No wonder the psychics miss so much of the time! -By Marjorie Lewis Lloyd,Signs of the Times, August 1976.

I'm pretty sure that Jesus fulfilled over 100 prophecies concerning the Messiah.

sthatting said:

I've been doing quite a bit of research on this for a while. I come from a Jewish background, but never FULLY accepted Jesus as the Messiah. I would like to ask a favor of all of you that are interested.

Please prove to me that Jesus Christ was, in fact, the Christ.

I would look fondly upon Old Testament passages of scripture, and lots of logic. Some things I'm having a hard time would include (so please attempt to address these issues):

- Elijah and John the Baptist being the same person. (I reference Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13; Malachi 4:5-6; John 1:21)
- Mary's genealogy problem [goes through Nathan instead of Solomon (Luke 3:31; I Chronicles 28:4-6)]

That's all at the moment. I look forward to your responses.

Click to expand...

Look at the Is. passages about Messiah . . .

Someone once said that of all the OT prophecies fulfilled in Christ (300 major -500+total) the chances for just SEVEN fulfilled in one person are equivalent to 1 in 1 to the 17th power

that is 1 in 100000000000000000. The illustration has been that if you took a bunch of quarters and placed them on an area the size of the state of Texas at FOUR FEET DEEP, took ONE of the quarters and marked it, threw it out into the pile and mixed the WHOLE THING UP . . . the chances that you would pick up that marked quarter the FIRST time are the equivalent of just SEVEN of those 500+ prophecies being fulfilled in ONE man.

Then look at the uncontrollable factors in the prophecies . . . Jesus couldn't have had any sway in where He was born . . . yet He fulfills the Jewish expectation of Messiah from Bethleham. There are SO many others . . . like what happened on the Cross . . . no way He could orchastrate what OTHERS would do . . . esp. His enemies.

As for John being Elijah . . . Jesus states that the concept refers to John coming in the SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH. Like someone going to church and saying "Jesus touched me . . ." was Jesus literally in the meeting? Nope. It is vicarious language common in ancient idiomatic expressions.

As for Mary's lineage . . . I had a LONG debate about this . . . it is true . . . when child has no father the child's lineage is reckoned to the mother's line. Also if a man has ONLY daughters, the child of the marriage is reckoned not with the biological father's line but with the sonless grandfather. This was in lieu of the year of Jubilee so that property could be rightly returned to the proper owner and the sonless grandfather's line could be honored.

Just so happens that Jesus' lineage from His biological mother is ALSO Royal . . . seems right being that Jesus was NOT Joseph's biological son and reconciliation to the throne of David would be tenuous. Not to mention that Joseph's claim came through a man who was cursed by God as NEVER having a descendant that would reign.

Mathetes the kerux said:

Look at the Is. passages about Messiah . . .

Someone once said that of all the OT prophecies fulfilled in Christ (300 major -500+total) the chances for just SEVEN fulfilled in one person are equivalent to 1 in 1 to the 17th power

that is 1 in 100000000000000000. The illustration has been that if you took a bunch of quarters and placed them on an area the size of the state of Texas at FOUR FEET DEEP, took ONE of the quarters and marked it, threw it out into the pile and mixed the WHOLE THING UP . . . the chances that you would pick up that marked quarter the FIRST time are the equivalent of just SEVEN of those 500+ prophecies being fulfilled in ONE man.

Then look at the uncontrollable factors in the prophecies . . . Jesus couldn't have had any sway in where He was born . . . yet He fulfills the Jewish expectation of Messiah from Bethleham. There are SO many others . . . like what happened on the Cross . . . no way He could orchastrate what OTHERS would do . . . esp. His enemies.

As for John being Elijah . . . Jesus states that the concept refers to John coming in the SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH. Like someone going to church and saying "Jesus touched me . . ." was Jesus literally in the meeting? Nope. It is vicarious language common in ancient idiomatic expressions.

As for Mary's lineage . . . I had a LONG debate about this . . . it is true . . . when child has no father the child's lineage is reckoned to the mother's line. Also if a man has ONLY daughters, the child of the marriage is reckoned not with the biological father's line but with the sonless grandfather. This was in lieu of the year of Jubilee so that property could be rightly returned to the proper owner and the sonless grandfather's line could be honored.

Just so happens that Jesus' lineage from His biological mother is ALSO Royal . . . seems right being that Jesus was NOT Joseph's biological son and reconciliation to the throne of David would be tenuous. Not to mention that Joseph's claim came through a man who was cursed by God as NEVER having a descendant that would reign.

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Mary was a half Levite/half Judahian

Elizabeth proves this

zeke37 said:

Mary was a half Levite/half Judahian

Elizabeth proves this

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Yep . . . which is also why in addition to prophet and king He could also be PRIEST.