Practicing Discernment at Wal-Mart

Ishida said:

Let us all put on goth outfits and start singing praise songs at that wal mart or something. It'd be funny.

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Oh SWEET!! I'm so there

Let us all put on goth outfits and start singing praise songs at that wal mart or something. It'd be funny.

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Bring it on! Thats hilarious!

Well, I was waking up this morning and missed a phone call. It was her. I think I am going to prepare myself a bit more, pray some, then give her a call. I really wanted to do this in person, but I suppose the phone will do.

I have found some verses I am going to share. It really seemed as if God was leading me to just the right verses.

John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

Wow, that one says it all!

1 Cor 4:3-5 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

Eph 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

I think Eph 4 here is a good one, for this mans announcing that he does this thing at wal mart is not beneficial to the church. Instead, I believe, it produces fear.

I spoke with another friend last night. She is the one who introduced me and the new friend. She has known the woman longer. She tells me she is convinced that this church is a cult. She has visited it with the friend, and knows some things that go on.

One cultish thing I am aware of is the pressured membership. This woman was ready to leave one day, the next day she told me she had become a member. When I asked about this... she said they had put pressure on her. They have said very unkind things to her, put her in a leadership role, then took her down, seem to be really wishy washy about what they want and expect. There are many churches out there that are legalistic and have man made rules, but I worry at this church its something more.

I ask that anyone reading my post this morning, please say a prayer for me, that if its Gods will, he will help me speak and reflect him in all I say. That her heart may be open and her mind clear.

Thank you.

He may be going to Walmart for discernment but you can be positive the store security has a discerning eye on him also.

TrustingmyLord, I just wanted to check in and see how things are going?

He may be going to Walmart for discernment but you can be positive the store security has a discerning eye on him also.

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Quite true, I had thought about that.


UPDATE

Well, here's an update. God gave me strength. I had told you all I would give her a call back. Well, sadly, I was chickening out. She has a pretty strong personality (though very nice) and I am pretty meek, so I dont like confrontations or tension... wasnt sure how it would go. Would she get offended? Would I get tongue tied? What do I say?

I was considering waiting another day before calling.... then the phone rang. LOL Gods timing.

I told her that what she had told me was really bugging me, wouldnt let me go, that I had been praying and had some verses. I read a few. Then she gets her Bible, going to a verse. I was pretty confused when she read the verse (James 4:11) as it agreed with me. It is my understanding that there is a part of her that totally agrees with me (and sees the Biblical proof of my viewpoint) and knows this is a really wrong attitude. There is another part of her.... that thinks its fine. I dont understand. I really dont.

We talked quite a while and I pointed out that while church discipline is in order on occasion, there is a way it is to be done, and only certain actions would warrant discipline.

This man is not the pastor, he is an elder. He is in charge of the Bible study, perhaps doctrines as well. Both he and his wife, she describes them as "strict." She mentioned occasions where she has been "disciplined" and in the cases she mentioned, it was totally uncalled for, unkind and mean spirited. She admits to having a problem with her temper, and I think she believes that their meanness is some test of God she must withstand. We talked for quite a while. She has an interest in visiting my church, but only during some event or service that doesnt conflict with her church.

A few hours later she called back. She had some verses about submitting to the authority of the church leaders. I tried my best to explain that yes, we are to submit, but even our church leaders make mistakes, and if their mistakes contradict the Bible, we arent to just let it go. I shared some of my past experiences (about false doctrines) with her and told her of a time where I politely, and with love, went to a church elder to ask about doctrine. She was saying we arent to attack the elder or condemn him, I said that she could very kindly just talk to him, explain the issue, show some scriptures and talk about it. (My real advice was to LEAVE.) I cant remember what she said, but it seemed as if she just could speak to him about such things. I asked if she had been taught that this was not allowed. Yep.

Here's what she said...

This is a "man of God." We do not question a man of God. God has put him in leadership, so there must be a reason. God put him there, so she must listen and submit. Then she mentions her trying to learn to submit. I think she feels terrible guilt, and that any harsh discipline she recieves is warranted. I asked her if she felt fear, cause it seemed to me that the mere idea of speaking with this man made her cringe,.... she says no.

She then spoke to me about how this man is right in what he does at wal mart, that as Christians, we are to act different, look different, etc. I said, God knows the heart. She said that this man is right for judging, talked about what kind of a witness we are to be... she mentioned that she has a tattoo, looks like "the world" and it has been mentioned by this man. I stopped her... what would Jesus say?? Would he say, woman, you have a tattoo, you are not welcome in my kingdom! Heavens no. She agreed. I then pointed out that we are to become more and more Christlike, and if this man is going the direction he is going in, its the opposite direction. Its casting stones. Being a Pharisee. I then talked about how the Pharisses did the exact same thing this man is doing, and how Jesus chastised them so harshly.

She seems to be mostly in agreement with all I say, but I think she is hung up on 2 issues.
1 being submission, the 2nd being that this is a "man of God."

On the submission part, I shared that I too have struggled, particularly with my husband at times. I tend to be very good at submitting. LOL The problem is, there are times I need to sit my husband down, talk to him about issues I feel strongly about.... and I dont, all in the name of submitting. I explained that on most issues, even when I disagree, I submit. However, if my husband asked me to rob a bank, then I need to submit to Gods authority.

So basically, we submit, UNLESS the person in authority is going against Gods will. Then, its OK not to submit. We submit to God first and foremost.

She didnt totally agree. I think she feels that this is another test she must pass, and she feels she is growing as a Christian through all this, and thats all that matters.

On the issue of this being a "God appointed" authority figure within the church, I havent tackled that one yet. I have some Bible study and much prayer to do first.

One hopeful thing she said to me was... "Do you REALLY think he is wrong to do this???"

I think she had had thoughts of this being wrong, but figured that she was just being disobedient and defiant. Maybe my feeling this way, and if I can get our mutual friend (the one who introduced us) to let her know she feels the same, maybe this will help her see. Maybe she is just so wrapped up in all this that she is having trouble seeing things objectively.

Sorry to go on an on, just wanted to let everyone know what happened. If anyone has any thoughts on this, perhaps a new perspective or some advice on how to better explain things, please, please feel free to share.

Thank you all so very much for listening.

First off, I want to applaud you. It sounds as though you did a fantastic job at listening to God, going to Him about this in prayer and following His leading.

Secondly, I will continue to pray about this with you. Going by what you have written here, she needs to leave this church now. I think what you are doing is great, and I think you are going about this in just the right way. God will use this conversation that you have had with her. At the very least, it will cast doubt in her mind about her "leaders."

Well done TrustingmyLord!!

First off, I want to applaud you. It sounds as though you did a fantastic job at listening to God, going to Him about this in prayer and following His leading.

Secondly, I will continue to pray about this with you. Going by what you have written here, she needs to leave this church now. I think what you are doing is great, and I think you are going about this in just the right way. God will use this conversation that you have had with her. At the very least, it will cast doubt in her mind about her "leaders."

Well done TrustingmyLord!!

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Thank you so much!! (I should be thanking you for being patient enough to read that whole post. LOL)

I feel she is so horribly torn. She has different views all coming at her and I dont think she is sure which voice is Gods. One minute she totally agrees with me, the next minute she is telling me the pastor called and told her she is leading a Bible study this Sunday and she is SO excited! I worry she may be pushing all doubts aside in some sort of fear that these are the "bad thoughts."

Perhaps I have planted seeds. We shall see. I do want to talk to her more about church leadership. I know that God allows things, and I know he does indeed put people in leadership. Yet I know in my heart that there is such a thing as BAD leadership. Just look at the Pharisees. Jesus spoke so critical of them, yet God did allow them to be in leadership. It doesnt mean they are infallible. Now... must figure out how to scripturally show this. I know its there.

Thanks again for the kind words, and I appriciate your prayers. I think we definitely need to pray that God leads her, and helps her to properly discern, in the manner discernment was meant to be used.

I think you've probably hit the nail right on the head with how she is feeling and what she is going through right now. I guarantee that you have planted seeds! She may move forward with this church for now, but your words are going to echo in her mind and cause her to doubt, and that's good!! Keep on being that constant reminder of Scripture, God's true nature, etc.

God is using you in a mighty way,

TrustingmyLord said:

A friend recently told me about a man from her church. I think she said he was the pastor, or someone in leadership, dont remember, but she says he goes to our local Wal-Mart not to shop, but to "discern."

He just watches everyone and tries to figure out who are Christians and who are not, all based on what he sees. He looks at how they are dressed, how short their skirts or shorts are, how tight the pants are, what kind of hairstyles they have, how they interact with their kids, what they are buying.

I have never heard of anything so judgemental and wrong in my whole life. He doesnt go there to discern, he goes to judge! Discerment really is a gift from God, but I really dont think this is what he intended!

Yet my friend tells this story so casually, and mentions that when she sees him at wal mart without a cart, she knows he is "discerning in the Spirit" and immediately tells her kids to be on their best behavior. I am not sure she understands how screwed up this is.

She has told me a few other things about her church that strike me as wrong. Their judgementalism, legalism, etc.

I want to ask her more about this, find out her true feelings here, and I really want to let her know that this is terribly, terribly wrong, and if this is any indication of what goes on at her church, I want to advise her to leave. I do plan to pray more about this, as I know thats what I need to do, but if I still feel God wants me to talk to her, what do I say? What do you all think about this?

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It sounds like it is very important to this person or pastor to judge others from external appearances. I probably wouldn't say anything about it though unless your friend brings it up again. Then, I might refer her to the passage where God tells Samuel that man judges from the external, but God judges the heart.
Hard to see that in Wal-Mart.

TrustingmyLord said:

This friend has told me quite a few other things about her church, things that all sound bad, judgemental, etc. Not lining up with sound doctrine, nor longing to be more like Christ. This was the very worst of what she has said, and I am shocked because its a person in leadership. If this is any indication of what he is teaching in the church... wow.

So she has issues with the church and wants to leave, then I talk to her again and she has just become a member. (With pressure from the leadership.)

I really want to discuss this with her and tell her I think this is crazy and wrong. She made a comment once about how "I guess all churches are like this." I said, no, they arent! I dont know her very well, so I am not sure how to go about talking to her. I feel very strongly that I need to talk to her though. I have prayed about it and now feel it more and more. Just dont know what to say or how to go about it.

Any ideas?

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This may not work-invite her to your church. She might refuse to go. Her church might have her thinking that they are the only church that she should attend and it is wrong to go to other churches. I had relatives with this view.

bornagain01 said:

He may be going to Walmart for discernment but you can be positive the store security has a discerning eye on him also.

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Very true. Lol

fushiarose said:

This may not work-invite her to your church. She might refuse to go. Her church might have her thinking that they are the only church that she should attend and it is wrong to go to other churches. I had relatives with this view.

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Ok. I replied before reading the whole thread. If you have already done that, I think she might go later on. After she has had it with that church, she might look for another place to go and will make it easier for her to leave that church knowing she has another place to go.

This may not work-invite her to your church. She might refuse to go. Her church might have her thinking that they are the only church that she should attend and it is wrong to go to other churches. I had relatives with this view.

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Well, my church (a great, Bible believing, humble, non-judgemental church) has a Bible study for moms each Monday. Since her church doesnt have anything like that (hers is pretty small) she was glad to go! She went this past Monday, which is when she told us the wal-mart story. She liked it and says she will be back.

I cannot picture her missing church to come visit mine. Her church was not having service tonight, so she was eager and ready to come visit mine. Unfortunately, its been raining for months and today was bad, lots of flooding. I do hope she will either visit for our regular service, or at least keep coming to the Bible study. I really, really want her to see that ALL churches are not like this! One thing I love about my church is that there are many, many people that come sincerely and humbly seeking God, to know him better and have fellowship with one another, we build each other up and encourage, as it should be. She really needs to see this.

I really think she isnt seeing much but spite, meanspirited attitudes and legalism. That is so wrong, gives Christians a bad name, and worst of all, it does nothing for the cause of Christ. I am usually pretty laid back and dont get too upset over much, but when it comes to defending Gods truth.... well, thats very, very important to me.

I know she wants to come, but something is holding her back. Now the pastor offered her a one time Bible study deal, she gets to teach this Sunday and is really happy about it. Then she plays guitar. They have her in the band, then they dont. Its as if they are toying with her, then if they think she is ready to leave (which she was) they pressure her into membership and let her teach. I could be reading too much into all that, but its a good conspiracy theory I think. LOL

It sounds like it is very important to this person or pastor to judge others from external appearances. I probably wouldn't say anything about it though unless your friend brings it up again. Then, I might refer her to the passage where God tells Samuel that man judges from the external, but God judges the heart.
Hard to see that in Wal-Mart.

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Yeah, thats definitely hard to see at wal-mart. Thanks for the tip, I'll look up that passage. I am unsure if I should say more. I will wait and listen for Gods lead. I prayed good and hard tonight that in this situation I will do Gods will, and not my own, show her Gods truth, and not my opinion. That I will not get ahed of God, that he will show me when to move forward, and when to back off. I trust that he will.

I commend you. God is working through you with this person.

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Wow, thanks! I just hope I dont let him down.

I think you've probably hit the nail right on the head with how she is feeling and what she is going through right now. I guarantee that you have planted seeds! She may move forward with this church for now, but your words are going to echo in her mind and cause her to doubt, and that's good!! Keep on being that constant reminder of Scripture, God's true nature, etc.

God is using you in a mighty way,

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Thanks, once again. I just hope I did things right. Said enough, but not more than I should have. I know I commented on being "meek" earlier, but once I really get going, ad if I am defending Gods truth, I tend to get excited. I still spoke with love and gentleness, yet I did stop her, interrupted her to say... No, wait a minute, what would Jesus do? Then I made the comment about Jesus not judging her about her tattoo.

I did pray that if I planted any good seeds, that God will water them greatly.

Ok. I replied before reading the whole thread. If you have already done that, I think she might go later on. After she has had it with that church, she might look for another place to go and will make it easier for her to leave that church knowing she has another place to go.

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LOL, no problem, its ALOT to read, especially my posts.

Yes, I agree, it would be much easier for her if she had somewhere new to go.

Hopefully through you, TrustinginmyLord, God will open her eyes,and she will be able to see what is really going on at her own church.