If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

Kain · Sep 29, 2002

Originally posted by Job_38
See Kain, you are wrong. Or atleast misinformed. We believe in one God. God is represented three ways, kinda like attributes I guess you would say, God the Father, God the Spirit, and God the Son.

Is Jesus a deity or not?
Is the Father a deity or not?
Is the HS a deity or not?

If they are mere representations of God, then the trinitarians are wrong, God is represented in many other ways. The Holy One of Israel, the Redeemer, El Shaddai, Shepherd, Judge, Lord of Hosts, Mighty One, Deliverer, El Roi, Savior, Shield, Righteous One, Everlasting, Zur to name several (there are more). These are all attributes.

1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X infinity = 1

isshinwhat · Sep 29, 2002

Doctrine 1: The Father is a deity, the Holy Spirit (wife?) is a deity, Jesus the son is a deity, all in one trinity (the daughter is missing from this 'tetrinity,' but maybe she'll be introduced later to complete the 4th letter of the Tetragrammaton).

The Holy Spirit is not the wife of the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, it did not create the Son with the Father. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each possess in totality the Divine Nature. That which makes me isshinwhat belongs to me alone, as well as your being, Kain, is possessed and weilded by you alone. We are finite creatures with a finite nature.

God, however, consists of three persons, each of whom possess in full the Divine Nature. The very being of God is possessed in totality by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We have no experential knowledge of this, because we alone possess our being. A finite nature can be divided into parts, an infinite nature cannot. The three persons of the Godhead each possess the Divine Nature in its entirety because of its infinite character. The Great Commandment, "love your neighbor as yourself, and God with all your heart," is a finite reflection of the very life of the Most Holy Trinity. The Nature of God is this commandment in its fullness, in fact it is the very source of the commandment. The very being of God is love in its perfect state, infinite and unending. The infinite, creative self-knowledge of the Father was the begatting of the Son. The Love between the two is the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from them both. Each is eternal, and each has always been. There cannot be one without the other.

God Bless,

Neal

Kain · Sep 29, 2002

Originally posted by isshinwhat
The Holy Spirit is not the wife of the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, it did not create the Son with the Father. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each possess in totality the Divine Nature. That which makes me isshinwhat belongs to me alone, as well as your being, Kain, is possessed and weilded by you alone. We are finite creatures with a finite nature.

God, however, consists of three persons, each of whom possess in full the Divine Nature. The very being of God is possessed in totality by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We have no experential knowledge of this, because we alone possess our being. A finite nature can be divided into parts, an infinite nature cannot. The three persons of the Godhead each possess the Divine Nature in its entirety because of its infinite character. The Great Commandment, "love your neighbor as yourself, and God with all your heart," is a finite reflection of the very life of the Most Holy Trinity. The Nature of God is this commandment in its fullness, in fact it is the very source of the commandment. The very being of God is love in its perfect state, infinite and unending. The infinite, creative self-knowledge of the Father was the begatting of the Son. The Love between the two is the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from them both. Each is eternal, and each has always been. There cannot be one without the other.

God Bless,

Neal

You haven't said anything I haven't already heard. The arguments remain. See my previous post.

isshinwhat · Sep 29, 2002

Your previous post listed the various names of the Father, it did not address the other two persons of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit and the Son are not just representations of God.

God Bless,

Neal

OldShepherd · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by Kain
No, I covered what the trinitarians believe, where you marked off 'blah blah'

Doctrine 1: The Father is a deity, the Holy Spirit (wife?) is a deity, Jesus the son is a deity, all in one trinity (the daughter is missing from this 'tetrinity,' but maybe she'll be introduced later to complete the 4th letter of the Tetragrammaton).

Wrong again. As I said before I have never encountered an anti-Trinitarian who could or would correctly describe the Trinity. The blah, blah, blahs, just ellipsed your false depiction.

OldShepherd · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by Kain
Yes, it was as clever as Souljah's 1X1X1=1
It clearly shows the analogy is a failure.

The point of this is that if some future revelation comes along which you perceive to be inspired by God, and in it he reveals a 4th and 5th clear definable aspect of himself, a Souljah would come along and say 1X1X1X1X1=1

There is no end. We can go up to infinity with this analogy.

If!

OldShepherd · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Is the Catholic Church the church that Christ built? You must be joking! How can the Catholic Church be the church that Christ built when they OPPOSE the teachings of Christ?

I am not associated with the Catholic church so you are wasting your time talking about it. What you call the Catholic church did NOT exist until 600-700 AD. All the writings I have quoted were from the first and second centuries.

You say you do not understand the comment. C'mmon be honest OldShepherd. You are saying this because you don't want to answer the question, right? Again, you are trying to divert the discussion to another topic. I don't care, for now, if Jesus is the word of God or not. For now, let us settle the question of WHERE is Jesus, the SON of "HIM who is true?"

The question as you are asking it does not make any sense. "I don't care, for now, if Jesus is the word of God or not." Well you see John 1 is part of the Bible and part of the scriptures which tell us who Jesus is. As with all heresies you want to isolate your one or two verses and ignore the rest of the Bible, no different than any other false cult, such as JW, LDS.

You say that Jesus is NOT the Father. He is the Son of the Father, right? You also say (not 1 John 5:20) that Jesus (the SON) is the true God. You therefore DENY that the FATHER is the ONLY true God, right?

I do not deny any such thing. My Bible has 31,172 verses. Yours only has two, John 17:3 and 8:40. You keep posting them over and over again, and ignoring the other 31,170 verses.

1 John 5:20 says: "..we are IN HIM who is true, EVEN in HIS son, Jesus Christ." You say that Jesus is "HIM who is true." If that is the case,WHERE is HIS son Jesus Christ?

I did not and do not say that Jesus is the one referred to as Him who is true. So not only do you ignore the Bible but now you are trying to twist what I say. Don't tell me what I said, quote it so you can get it right.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This "outos" is the true God, and eternal life.

The rules of Greek grammar, require the masculine singular pronoun "outos" to refer back to the first masculine noun which precedes it. The MS noun which precedes the pronoun in this verse is Son Jesus Christ.

edpobre · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by OldShepherd
I am not associated with the Catholic church so you are wasting your time talking about it. What you call the Catholic church did NOT exist until 600-700 AD. All the writings I have quoted were from the first and second centuries.

The question as you are asking it does not make any sense. "I don't care, for now, if Jesus is the word of God or not." Well you see John 1 is part of the Bible and part of the scriptures which tell us who Jesus is. As with all heresies you want to isolate your one or two verses and ignore the rest of the Bible, no different than any other false cult, such as JW, LDS.

I do not deny any such thing. My Bible has 31,172 verses. Yours only has two, John 17:3 and 8:40. You keep posting them over and over again, and ignoring the other 31,170 verses.

I did not and do not say that Jesus is the one referred to as Him who is true. So not only do you ignore the Bible but now you are trying to twist what I say. Don't tell me what I said, quote it so you can get it right.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This "outos" is the true God, and eternal life.

The rules of Greek grammar, require the masculine singular pronoun "outos" to refer back to the first masculine noun which precedes it. The MS noun which precedes the pronoun in this verse is Son Jesus Christ.

OldShepherd,

 You say that "The rules of Greek grammar, require the masculine singular pronoun "outos" to refer back to the first masculine noun which precedes it. The MS noun which precedes the pronoun in this verse is Son Jesus Christ."

You therefore, BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the "true God and eternal life," right? Be honest now OldShepherd and answer me. Yes or No!

Going back to 1 John 5:20, you will see that Jesus Christ is "HIS Son." Earlier, you SAID that the FATHER has a SON and Jesus is NOT the FATHER. Do you AGREE then that Jesus is the SON of the FATHER? Yes or No!

Now, if Jesus is the SON of the FATHER, do you then AGREE that "HIS" (in HIS Son...) refers to "HIM who is true?" Yes or No!

Now answer me OldShepherd. WHO is "HIM who is true?" Is  it the FATHER or is it the SON?

Do you STILL insist that the rules of Greek grammar should rule OVER your intellect?

Ed

OldShepherd · Sep 30, 2002

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. (This) (outoV) is the true God, and eternal life.

Does the phrase, This is the true God, and eternal life. refer to God, to alhqinoV/The True One or to the Son Jesus Christ, the noun which immediately precedes the pronoun outoV?

Here are several passages which have a similar construction as 1 John 5:20, a statement beginning with outoV which refers back to one of two previously mentioned nouns. In every case it is clear that the outoV clause refers back to the immediately preceding noun, not the noun before that. And unless 1 John 5:20 is the only exception, I have been unable to find one example where an outoV clause does not refer to the immediately preceding or following noun.

Luk 9:24 For (1) whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but (2) whosoever will lose his life for my sake, (the same) outoV shall save it.[/I]

Who will save his life, whosoever #(1) or #(2)? Mt 10:39, Mt 16:25, Mr 8:35, Lu 17:33, and Joh 12:25, all clearly show it is #2, the noun which immediately precedes the pronoun outoV.

Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, (this man) (outoV) went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Which man went to his house justified the Pharisee, vs. 11? Or the tax collector, vs. 13, the noun, which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV? Verse 13 explains it was the tax collector. The one who humbled him self was justified!

Luk 19:1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and (he) outoV was rich.

Who was rich Jesus or Zacchaeus, the noun, which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV?

John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 (The same) (outoV) came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Who came to Jesus by night the noun, Jesus Himself or Nicodemus, the noun which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV?

John 6:7 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 (This) (outoV) is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

In John 6:7, who is the bread from heaven, The Father or Jesus, the noun, which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV?

Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that (he) outoV is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

According to Paul who is the Lord of heaven, the unknown god of the Greeks or His God, the noun which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV?

Therefore based on consistent N.T. usage, in 1 John 5:20, to whom does the phrase, (outoV/This) is the true God, and eternal life. refer? Does it refer to the Son Jesus Christ, the noun which immediately precedes outoV, as in all the above examples? Or does it, in this one isolated instant, refer to The True One[/I], the noun before The Son?

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 30, 2002

Yes, it was as clever as Souljah's 1X1X1=1
It clearly shows the analogy is a failure.

The point of this is that if some future revelation comes along which you perceive to be inspired by God, and in it he reveals a 4th and 5th clear definable aspect of himself, a Souljah would come along and say 1X1X1X1X1=1

There is no end. We can go up to infinity with this analogy.

My analogy may not have been clever, but you could at least understand it yourself, before proving my point.

Yes. God could have 1X1X1X1.... and still be ONE God. He chose three forms, what is to stop Him from choosing as many as He sees fit?

Dont limit God by putting your own attributes and thoughts upon Him, an infinite being.

edpobre · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by Job_38

See Kain, you are wrong. Or atleast misinformed. We believe in one God. God is represented three ways, kinda like attributes I guess you would say, God the Father, God the Spirit, and God the Son.

Click to expand...

Are you being HONEST Job_38? You say you believe in ONE God but in your post, I count THREE "Gods" which you try to HIDE behind what you call "ways" or "kinda attributes" (like having your "tongue in  your cheeks" as you say this!).

Most Trinitarians say these THREE "Gods" are "persons." When asked what is "person" they say "person" is UNDESCRIBABLE! Are Trinitarians HONEST? I don't think so! Please CONVINCE me that they are, starting with yourself!

Ed

 

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 30, 2002

What you call the Catholic church did NOT exist until 600-700 AD. All the writings I have quoted were from the first and second centuries.

Wrong brother. It was first called Catholic by the early Church fathers in 107 AD. The Catholic Church began in AD 33 when Jesus Christ set up His Church on the first Bishop of Rome, Peter, the rock, as Jesus Himself stated.

I choose to trust Jesus over false history and hateful lies that I have seen in this thread. (Not from you Old Shepherd)

edpobre · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by Sean R. Sherman

ISAIAH 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace.

Click to expand...

Okay Sean, tell me. If you really believe that Jesus is the everlasting FATHER, who is his SON Jesus Christ mentioned in 1 John 5:20?

Ed

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 30, 2002

The Trinity is a mystery for a good reason. It was revealed to the Church as divine revelation though Jesus Christ.

God's thoughts are not our own thoughts. Don't lean on your own understanding, and don't interpret scripture for yourself.

That is ALL in the Bible edpobre.

edpobre · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah

Wrong brother. It was first called Catholic by the early Church fathers in 107 AD. The Catholic Church began in AD 33 when Jesus Christ set up His Church on the first Bishop of Rome, Peter, the rock, as Jesus Himself stated.

I choose to trust Jesus over false history and hateful lies that I have seen in this thread. (Not from you Old Shepherd)

Click to expand...

sOuljah,

If you are indeed HONEST, please show us where  "Catholic" church is found in the Bible.  And where do we find that Peter was set up as the first Bishop of Rome.

Read Romans 16:16 from ANY version of the Bible and tell me if you see "Catholic" in that verse.

Ed

edpobre · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah

The Trinity is a mystery for a good reason. It was revealed to the Church as divine revelation though Jesus Christ.

Show me where the Trinity was revealed by Jesus to the church. 

God's thoughts are not our own thoughts. Don't lean on your own understanding, and don't interpret scripture for yourself.

That is ALL in the Bible edpobre.

Click to expand...

 

Click to expand...

 

sOuljah,

These are God's WORDS spoken through Jesus:

John 8:40 - "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN...." John 17:1, 3 - "Father.... And this is eternal life, that they mayknow YOU, the ONLY true God..."

Who is INTERPRETING scripture to make God THREE "persons?" Scripture says there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER. Trinitarians say there are THREE Gods but INSIST that these THREE should be counted as ONE!

Ed

Click to expand...

 

 

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 30, 2002

If I am honest? To imply I am lying, you must first show that I said what you claim, and then prove it wrong.

In fact, I said the word Catholic appeared in 107 AD.

As far as Peter as the first Pope, we can get into that, but to save time, I will tell you that I can crush you on this point. If you really want to get into it, start a new thread on the topic and I will oblige you.

Now, if you are indeed a CHRISTIAN, please start acting like one.

There is a saying, "Your actions are so loud that I cant hear your words"

OldShepherd · Sep 30, 2002

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Does the phrase This is the true God, and eternal life. refer to Jesus in this verse or to God as in John 17:3?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So we would expect to find true teachings in His church, in all ages, especially the first years immediately following the ministry of His apostles, e.g. 50 AD 300 AD. Here are quotes from the early church fathers, with dates, identifying Jesus as the true God

To verify click (Here) to link to the Early Church Fathers.

A Second Epistle Of Ignatius To St. John. (50-110 AD)
Ignatius was a disciple of John the Beloved, author of the Gospel of John, the three epistles and Revelation.

IF thou wilt give me leave, I desire to go up to Jerusalem, and see the faithful(2) saints who are there, especially Mary the mother, whom they report to be an object of admiration and of affection to all. For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who bore the true God from her own womb, provided he is a friend of our faith and religion? And in like manner [I desire to see] the venerable James, who is surnamed Just, whom they relate to be very like Christ Jesus in appearance,(4) in life, and in method of conduct, as if he were a twin-brother of the same womb.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV. (120-22 AD)

For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians

But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,[8] but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh."[9]

Clement of Rome, The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book VII. (75-85 AD)

For they form the character, not knowing the true God. "For he that loveth father or mother more than Me," the Father and Teacher of the truth, who regenerates and creates anew, and nourishes the elect soul, "is not worthy of Me"--He means, to be a son of God and a disciple of God, and at the same time also to be a friend, and of kindred nature. "For no man who looks back, and puts his hand to the plough, is fit for the kingdom of God."[1]

The Extant Works And Fragments Of Hippolytus. Expository Treatise Against The Jews. (170-236 AD)

4. Now Christ prayed all this economically(2) as man; being, however, true God. But, as I have already said, it was the "form of the servant"(3) that spake and suffered these things. Wherefore He added, "My soul looked for reproach and trouble," that is, I suffered of my own will, (and) not by any compulsion. Yet "I waited for one to mourn with me, and there was none," for all my disciples forsook me and fled; and for a "comforter, and I found none."

Martyrdom Of The Holy And Glorious Apostle Bartholomew

And his craft was such, that when he saw the Son of the virgin fasting forty days, he knew in truth that He was the true God. The true God and man, therefore, hath not given Himself out to be known, except to those who are pure in heart,(1) and who serve Him by good works.

Ancient Syriac Documents

Martyrdom[1] Of The Holy Confessors Shamuna, Guria, And Habib, From Simeon Metaphrastes.[2]

For we are the worshippers of Christ the true God, and (again we say it) of Him of whose kingdom there shall be no end; who also is alone able to glorify those in return who glorify His name.

Preaching Of The Apostle Thaddaeus At Edessa; Copy Of Five Letters,

His name alone, invoked by His disciples, produces the greatest miracles: what has happened to myself is the most evident proof of it. Your august Majesty knows henceforth what ought to be done in future with respect to the Jewish nation, which has committed this crime; your Majesty knows whether a command should not be published through the whole universe to worship Christ as the true God. Safety and health."

VII. On The Nature Of Christ.[8]
For the deeds done by Christ after His baptism, and especially His miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh. For, being at once both God and perfect man likewise, He gave us sure indications of His two natures:[10] of His Deity, by His miracles during the three years that elapsed after His baptism; of His humanity, during the thirty similar periods which preceded His baptism, in which, by reason of His low estate[11] as regards the flesh, He concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before all ages.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 30, 2002

Amen.

OldShepherd · Sep 30, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre

Now answer me OldShepherd. WHO is "HIM who is true?" Is  it the FATHER or is it the SON?

Do you STILL insist that the rules of Greek grammar should rule OVER your intellect?

The grammar rules of any language does not rule my intellect. I speak and read more that one language. When I speak and read those languages I observe the grammar rules so that I can correctly communicate. I do not mix up verbs and noun, tenses, etc. Neither did John, Peter, paul, Luke and the other N.T. writers. They wrote precisely using the grammar rules known to them so that their audience would understand them.

If John had intended for the phrase "the true god. to refer to the Father he would have used the demonstrative pronoun "eikenos"/that" instead of "outos"

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

"Him that is true" refers to the Father, in the sentence in which it occurs, and then in the next sentence John writes "outos"/this" which refers to Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John in very precise Greek is saying that God and Jesus are the true God. Read my other posts John uses the same word, in the same way, in several other places.

But people like yourself would rather ignore most of the Bible, use different translations for different verses, and follow the false teachings of self proclaimed prophets instead of learning what the Bible really says.

I don't speak Tagalog but if I say Pa'alam when I mean Salamat, that is wrong. But if a Pinoy were writing he would use the correct word, in the correct way, at the correct time. John knew how to write Greek. You certainly believe what he writes in John 17:13 and 8:40. But when the same writer, John, doesn't agree with your cult teaching you want to claim it is wrong. Well if 1 John 5:20 is wrong how can we be sure that anything else John writes is not also wrong.

If Jesus is the TRUE God, who is his SON Jesus?

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