Magic

I think you first need to define exactly what magic is, and then state specifically how that is different from miracles. Most people have trouble differentiating between the two, and many posters in here do little but say "magic" is from Satan, and "miracles" are from God.
So in order to find the line between acceptable and unacceptable, you must first define magic and miracle.

FWIW, you probably mean "affects" (changes), not "effects" (causes/brings into being).

My personal take is that pop culture magic has nothing to do with anything; it's sort of fun, and harmless.

yeah, unless things start getting serious... like ouji boards and witchcraft. If "magic" diverts a Christian from God, then that's harmful.

as for magic in games and books, i suppose it's ok, take books for example, magic's one way in conveying the ever struggle between good and evil, and the medium is entertaining. Just keep in mind that it's not real in a sense (it can be real if you let it!).

I think that most playing around with ouiji boards is about as serious as magic 8 balls; they're really mostly toys. Which isn't to say you couldn't get in trouble with one - but I don't think that the things are inherently evil, just silly.

magic itself is not evil, it depends on the person using it and to what ends that it is being used for.
If one says here that magic is evil, I think that that would be a bit awkward if you think about it. In the christian religion there are examples of 'magic'. When the priest blesses the bread and wine and it turns into the body and blood of christ. This is a positive form of 'magic.' Another would be prayer of ANY religion. In praying you are putting forth spiritual and emotional energy (and in some people physical) towards a higher power and in turn It/He/Her will grant your prayer. This is another form of positive
'magic'. To give you an example of negative 'magic' would be voodoo dolls or love magic, since it takes control of anothers life and manipulates. No one wants to be manipulated in any way shape or form.
Therefor if you perform some sort of 'magic' to help a person or to protect a life it is positive. Regardless of whether you want to admit it or not, magic is very much a part of all faiths.

I think the traditional Christian response is to say "no, only sacraments are allowed, because God does them, any other apparent magic is not from God, and therefore from Satan".

Me, I'm not sure. I think God is allowed to use whatever mechanisms are appropriate. Once, when my wife and I were having a hard time with an issue, we took a deck of blank cards (you can buy these), split it evenly, and each wrote whatever came to mind on our half of the cards, then asked God to help. We both think He intervened, at that point, and caused cards with informative responses to come up in response to questions.

We think it was God because my wife, who is a lot more sensitive than me, said she thought it was two male entities and one female one "controlling" the cards, and because the next card that came up after she said that was "Yes, I am the boss of you", and the card after that said "bless".

The advice given was consistent with what one would expect from God; insightful, helpful, and compassionate.

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
Specifically, I'm wondering about things like: magic in popular media (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Charmed, Buffy, etc), magic in games (Magic: The Gathering, spellcasters in role-playing games, etc), and magicians (David Copperfield, etc).

Is there a line between what is acceptable and what becomes unacceptable or even dangerous?

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IMO, shows like Charmed and Harry Potter are very dangerous. They make witchcraft look fun, powerful and to be used to good ends. The Bible has warned us against the craft, sorcery and contacting familiar spirits, these shows are having a negative effect on children who have yet to discern good and evil. The same goes with Lord of The Rings (Gandalf The Grey).

I'm not sure about David Copperfield though. If he's merely conjuring illusions to trick the mind then its alright. I believe that it is acceptable only when you read it for knowledge or research purposes (I'm also not sure about movies), but if you constantly fantasize about wielding powers like those in the book, then you better stop reading it.

Jag

 

I personally don't think the "witchcraft" in Harry Potter is similar enough to anything to be worth worrying about. The only sources I've seen cite specific magical things in it that they objected to were making it up; e.g., claims that the book uses ouija boards and tarot cards. The books carefully stay clear of real magic.

As to Gandalf... I think LotR stands on its own merits, and needs no defense.

Let me throw in my .02 on console RPGs (Final Fantasy, SaGa Frontier, etc.) and some anime.

The magic is NOT real for the most part, and I think almost anyone older than 11 or 12 could understand that. (except maybe the guy who wrote that deliverance prayer I commented on lol) Rather it is simply a plot device or a way of furthering the battle and/or story, and a way for those hardworking programmers and artists to show off their drawing skills.

It has no effect in real life (meaning that if I select "silence" on screen and click the button for the character to cast it on the monster he's battling, I know it won't stop my dog from yapping ), and 90% has no parallel to real life (actually conducted/practiced) spells/rituals/whatnot unless some overzealous observer like Berit Kjos or Bob Larson applies such a parallel.

If you have a problem with it (believe it's real magic despite how long I talk to you, believe similar things could happen in real life, feel drawn to actual witchcraft) then by all means don't play or watch. (But PLEASE don't condemn those of us who don't have problems with it.)

IMHO I personally believe also that young children (at least until 12 or 13, maybe older depending on individual maturity) shouldn't watch anime or play RPGs (although, with young children, I would be a bit more concerned with the overall violence/fighting being seen by a young child unable to process it, than I would with "oh, that character uses magic" hysteria.)

I honestly would be more concerned over a kid waving a toy shotgun around at people than one pointing a finger at people and saying "poof, you're a rabbit"

I hope that I provided some useful insight on this from my point of view. I feel bound to caution you that it is my personal opinion and that of many people I know, but it is not the opinion of my church. I'm going out on a long limb posting this. . .-^.^-

Hi all!

Lessee...

It got me thinking about other "taboo" things, specifically magic. So, I ask how everyone feels about magic in popular culture and how (and if) it impacts your religious beliefs.

Specifically, I'm wondering about things like: magic in popular media (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Charmed, Buffy, etc), magic in games (Magic: The Gathering, spellcasters in role-playing games, etc), and magicians (David Copperfield, etc).

Is there a line between what is acceptable and what becomes unacceptable or even dangerous?

Click to expand...

Well, the Torah talks about such things many times. I'll cite probably the most comprehensive quote, Deuteronomy 18:9-14.

When you are come into the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that uses divination, a soothsayer, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or one that consultets a ghost or a familiar spirit, or a necromancer. For whosoever does these things is an abomination unto the Lord; and because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out from before you. You shall be whole-hearted with the Lord your God. For these nations, that you are to dispossess, hearken unto soothsayers, and unto diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God hash not suffered you to do so.

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From an orthodox Jewish standpoint, based upon the foregoing, consulting ouija boards, mediums, tarot cards, participating in seances, etc. are absolutely forbidden. Not that there is any reality in these things, but we are forbidden to resort to them nonetheless. Why? The text calls on us to

be whole-hearted with the Lord your God.

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Resorting to enchanters, charmers, sorcerers, mediums. necromancers, etc. bespeaks a lack of faith in God and His Torah.

As an orthodox Jew, I don't see any harm in Harry Potter and certainly not in LotR (J.R.R. Tolkien, like his good friend C.S. Lewis, was a pious Roman Catholic). Harry Potter and LotR are what they are, fantasy. I trust that the vast majority of readers (BTW, LotR is NOT a children's book; The Hobbit is, but LotR is most definitely not) can distinguish between the real world and the fantasy/unreality of certain books. I was an avid D&D player back at college (George Washington University, 1981-1985); like with books, I see no harm in that either (I had a ball). David Copperfield's sleight-of-hand is, likewise, harmless fun. There is, I think, a substantive difference (of kind, not degree) between actually resorting to ouija boards, mediums, etc. and reading/playing fantasy for recreation.

Questions?

ssv

Harry Potter, FYI, was written by a Christian woman who didn't know there was such a thing as "real" (i.e. Pagan) magic or Witches out there till fundamentalist Protestants in the United States decided her books were about them. Then, I would imagine, she laughed her head off, as she should. Magic in books and movies is nothing like Pagan magic. It's entertainment only. It's like insisting that portrayals of Christianity in movies is "real Christianity." Often, it's just one-sided nonsense for entertainment.

And that's the truth. PPPPPPPPPBBBBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTTTT!

 Edited for content.

The argument from some people says that if children are entertained by anything that even remotely smells pagan, then they will become little witches and warlocks, right?

Hmmm....So if that is true....it should be easy to turn athiests or pagans into christians, right? I mean, basically you are saying that Harry Potter is evil...kids watch it and they are drawn into Satan's power...they're somehow magically drawn into wizardry. So the same should work in reverse, right? All you need to do is have a bunch of athiests listen to a tv evangelist or watch 'Touched by an Angel, and POOF, they should turn into christians. Of course that does not happen. It does not happen in this case either.

If a person turns their entire religious outlook around because of a book or game, then they need to question the strength of their beliefs. Not the story or game.

Quoted from Connie Neal, author of 'What's a Christian to do with Harry Potter' ~~~~


I want to try to create for people an understanding of how offensive it is to insist that everyone else adopt their interpretation of literature.

Let’s say that maybe your church produces A Christmas Carol, the Dickens classic. What if someone told you, "Now, I have never read A Christmas Carol, but I have seen enough clips of the film to know it is absolutely evil. I saw Ebeneezer Scrooge conversing with the spirit of a dead man. I saw for myself that he astrally projects out of the window. I saw Scrooge in a graveyard, and that hooded figure with him was a spirit who had taken him into the future and shown him his own grave, and that’s divination. Deuteronomy 18 forbids divination. How can you as a Christian say that this has anything to do with Christmas?"
You may respond by saying, "Wait, the story is about redemption! It’s about loving before it’s too late!" The story is good—in every sense of the word—even though it is set entirely within supernatural elements forbidden in the Bible.

So how would we respond to critics? Would we say, "Divination and speaking to the dead are no big deal"?

No. We say, "I understand that these spirits and supernatural powers are merely literary devices used by the author to tell a story, not a subtle attempt to lead unsuspecting children into occult practices."

Originally posted by JagSayon
IMO, shows like Charmed and Harry Potter are very dangerous. They make witchcraft look fun, powerful and to be used to good ends. The Bible has warned us against the craft, sorcery and contacting familiar spirits, these shows are having a negative effect on children who have yet to discern good and evil. The same goes with Lord of The Rings (Gandalf The Grey). 
 

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Witchcraft IS fun, powerful, and to be used to good ends. I personally don't see anything wrong with that. Sure your bible tells you not to do it, but that's your belief system. I'll just keep on healing people, spreading cheer, enjoying the fellowship of other Witches, taking food donations down to the food bank after every Sabbat, etc. If you think that's evil well hey, your in a rapidly diminishing minority.

P.S. Have you ever seen the look on the face of a person at the Sally Ann when you tell them this is a Donation from the local Witches.... Now there's good fun.

Originally posted by Havoc
"...taking food donations down to the food bank after every Sabbat, etc. If you think that's evil well hey, your in a rapidly diminishing minority.

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Its great to hear your're taking donations down to the food bank although I don't exactly know what it is cause I don't have it here...I think. But I take it you're helping the needy. Praise God for you Havoc. Taking food to the food bank is not evil. You are not evil, witchcraft is. Peace to you Havoc.

Jag