If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

SenseiPiccolo · Feb 7, 2002

St. John 10 : 28-30
note:
I and my Father are one.

jbenjesus · Feb 7, 2002

Greetings to all in the name of Jesus,

I'm gonna poke my nose into this mess. Hopefully I will ruffle up some feathers and provoke you to search the scripture in the light of the Holy Spirit and not in the light of men.

Just because we don't understand an "apparent" contradiction in scripture doesn't mean it's wrong. We need to seek and search more diligently and ask God for His wisdom and revelation to reveal to us the truth behind such "apparent" contradictions.

The Identity of the Man Jesus Christ

The author of Hebrews states that one of the origins of the doctrine of Christ is faith toward God (Hebrews 6:1,2). Paul, however, preached faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (see Acts 20:21 -Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. ) Is this a Contradiction? Was Paul misquoted? No, not at all. We must remember that these recorded words are the inspired word of God, not the mistakes of men's writings.

Let us look at the testimony and witness of the writers of the Old and New Covenant to see that faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ is faith toward God.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah prophesied of a child who would be born. This child would be considered The mighty God, the everlasting Father. This scripture is undoubtedly the prophecy concerning Jesus Christ. Jesus is our mighty God and the Father eternal who manifested in the flesh.

Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah prophesied of this same child in another instance and said they will call Him Immanuel. We find in Matthew 1:23 that Immanuel (Emmanuel) is interpreted as "God with us." The baby was considered God with us even from His birth.

Let us look at Pauls testimonies identifying who Jesus Christ was to him:

I Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,

Paul writing to Timothy explicitly declared that God manifested or revealed Himself in the flesh. That flesh spoken of was the man Jesus Christ.

II Corinthians 5:18,19 - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Paul said to the Corinthians that, by Jesus Christ, we have been reconciled to God. However, he clarifies that statement and clearly says that, God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.

Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Paul said that in the body of the man Jesus Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead.

Colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Paul said Jesus was the image, in the flesh, of the invisible God of Israel. No man can see God unless He makes Himself visible and perceivable in some fashion. He made Himself visible and perceivable in the flesh. Thats why Jesus said, He that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14:9).

Philippians 3:8 - Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Paul confessed that Christ Jesus was his Lord. There is only one Lord (Mark 12:29; I Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:5). Was Paul mistaken again? Did Paul believe that he submitted himself to two Lords? God the Father and Jesus His Son? Not according to Paul.

I Corinthians 12: 4-5 - Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Paul addressed the diversity of gifts and said they are from the same Spirit. He said there are differences of administrations of these gifts, but they are still from the same Lord. There are diversity of operations, but it is the same God that works in them all. Paul understood that there was one God, who was and is the same Lord, who was and is the same Spirit from the Old Covenant.

I Timothy 4:10 - For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Paul said to Timothy that, We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men. Was Pauls God and Savior two different persons?

Titus 1:3,4 - But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Paul testified to Titus that the Lord Jesus Christ was our Savior! Are we to believe that God his Savior, God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ are 3 different people? Paul was writing of his God, our Savior, and recognizing Him in His roles as God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Paul said in the same letter to Titus a little later that he was looking for the glorious appearing of his great God and Savior - Jesus Christ!

Titus 3:4,6 - But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Paul is not acknowledging two different persons. Paul is speaking of Him in terms of His roles. Jesus Christ is none other than our God and Savior.

Let us look at Peter's testimonies identifying who Jesus Christ was to him:

I Peter 1:1,11 - Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Was Peter misguided, deluded and deceived? He emphatically confesses and claims that Jesus Christ is his God, Lord, and Savior. Peter is in complete agreement with Paul on the identity of Jesus Christ.

Let us look at Thomas' testimony identifying who Jesus Christ was to him:

John 20:27,28 - Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Thomas probably made the greatest statement of faith before receiving the blessed Holy Spirit. Jesus was to him, My Lord and my God. Three witnesses who testify that the true identity of Jesus Christ is God. Not another God (god). Not a 2nd person of God (god), but God Himself manifested in the flesh.

Let us look at John's testimony identifying who Jesus Christ was to him:

John 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

More properly translated and paraphrased this verse says that in the beginning was the Word. Not only was the Word with God, but also God was the Word.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Since God was the Word and the Word was made flesh, Paul was able to say to Timothy, by revelation, that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh or manifested (revealed) in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16).

Later John wrote a letter we call I John and in this letter he begins in very much the same style as the gospel of John that he wrote:

I John 1:1,2 - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

In this verse John starts with that which was from the beginning (just as in the beginning was from John 1:1). That which he heard, saw, looked upon and touched was/is the Word of life (also known as the Word from John 1:1). This life was manifested (also known as the Word [of Life] was made flesh from John 1:14 & I Timothy 3:16), and John states that he saw the Word and witnessed that the Word dwelt among us (John 1:14).

Who was the Word (of Life) that John the apostle kept referring to in his writings? In the beginning, was the Word, the Word was with God, and God was the Word (of Life). The Word, who is God, manifested Himself in the flesh. This manifestation in the flesh was Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God.

I John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The final witness in agreement with Paul, Peter, and Thomas is John. John testifies with emphatic agreement that Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life.

continued in the next post:

jbenjesus · Feb 7, 2002

Lets read what Jesus said to the Pharisees who would not believe that Jesus was who He said he was.

John 8:23,24,39-41,44,47 - And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

(Jesus speaking) - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The identification Jesus is undeniable. He said to the Pharisees that if they would not believe that He was who He said He was that they would die in their sins. They tried to rely on their earthly heritage for salvation by saying Abraham was their father. Jesus rebuked them for that for they did not follow the example of Abraham in doing his works (obeying the voice of God).

Then the Pharisees said that they had one father who was God. Jesus rebuked them for that because if they were Abrahams true children (of the seed of faith) they would have accepted what Jesus said and believed. If their father truly was God they would have heeded Jesus' words because he that is of God hears His voice. The Pharisees did not hear or heed the voice of God in Jesus and proved that their true father was the devil and so did the lusts of their father.

Jesus showed a very important principle in familial relationships. Children do the will of their father. Children of God do the will of God and children of the devil (disobedience) do the will of the devil.

The Mediator the Man Christ Jesus

I Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

God has made the Man Jesus Christ the mediator. Jesus Christ is the mediator, the one who restores and reconciles man to God. A mere mortal man could not have thought of such a thing, let alone have the power and ability to do such a magnificent and wonderful thing for man. Only God could have done such a thing, and He did it through the Man Jesus Christ.

Man cannot approach God or see Him, and indeed no man has seen God (I John 4:12). However, we can approach God through mediation. David Huston, a pastor and author, writes in his article entitled The Water and the Tree,

Speaking to His apostles as the Mediator between God and men, Jesus declared, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me (John 14:6). Throughout the ages, people have attempted to come to God through many pathways, but according to the Bible, a person can only come to God by way of the Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus. As Peter explained, Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit (I Peter 3:18).

The God of the Old Covenant, also known as the Father, is Jesus our God and Savior. Jesus is the door and portal. By faith in Him we can have access to the riches of the kingdom of God and eternal life. This is the God whom the apostles preached. This is the God whom I preach.

In conclusion, faith toward God is believing that Jesus Christ was who He said He was - the Father - God Himself come (manifest - revealed) in the flesh.

Thunderchild · Feb 7, 2002

The reason that the Trinity doctrine causes difficulty lies in one key issue. Where does the BIBLE record that Jesus of Nazareth remained God?

It is written that he emptied himself and became a servant, a man.

Can anyone find even one passage that shows he remained God? I have searched and can find no support anywhere in what is written for the concept that though he BECAME a man, he remained God.

Josephus · Feb 7, 2002

"Your INTERPRETATION that Jesus is MAN in the body BUT he was God in SPIRIT is not only UNBIBLICAL but ABSURD as well. When Jesus said, "But now you seek to kill ME a MAN..." was he referring ONLY to his body?"

Are you saying Jesus didn't have a spirit? LOL

jbenjesus · Feb 7, 2002

There is but one God, also know as the Father, and who is the Holy Spirit.

This one God played the role of the Son to redeem mankind. We know him biblically and historically to be the Man Jesus Christ.

God, Father, and Holy Spirit are merely titles. His name is Jesus. Jesus came in the name of the Father. The Holy Spirit was sent in the name of Jesus, hence, the name of God, also know as the Father, and who is the Holy Spirit has a name and that name is Jesus.

God, when speaking to us of His plan for the redemption of mankind, accomodated Himself to our thoughts, without violating His Word.

He said He would send His son. The son, however, is none other than God Himself manifested in the flesh. If you think that there was some sort of family of persons in the Godhead you are sorely mistaken.

Speaking to fathers, I ask you, which one of you would send your own son to save another child of yours? Would you not, if you loved your son, go yourself and save him? What would any of us think of a man who took his own son standing beside him and throw him toward his other child who was about to be struck by a bus, in order to save him? Really, what would you think of that man?

You would question why would that man, who supposedly loved his other son, not jump himself to push his other child to safety and take the blow of the bus himself.

God did much the same thing. Yes it says he sent His son, but he used the word son because He conceived this "son" by Himself, Holy Spirit, in the womb of a virgin girl named Mary. Hence, Jesus is known as the Son of God and the Son of Man. He accomodated Himself to our thoughts, without violating His own Word.

Think...

how can Jesus be the High Priest and the Sacrifice?

how can Jesus be the lion and the lamb?

how can Jesus be the alpha and the omega?

how can Jesus be both God and man?

Simple... Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

There are not multiple persons in the Godhead. There wasn't some family meeting in heaven on who would go and the son" volunteered. God himself came as "the son", Jesus Christ to redeem mankind from their sins.

There is one God playing different roles, if you will, or manifesting Himself in different manners to man. He was at many times "the angel of the Lord" in the Old Covenant. He was the captain of the hosts that Joshua ran into in the night. We call these in our terms a theophany. He was and still is the Holy Spirit spoken of in the Old Covenant that came upon and anointed men and women of God to fulfill a particular purpose of God.

The Man Jesus Christ is no different, except that He was born in the flesh of a woman, but conceived of the Holy Spirit of God.

Easiest way I can explain it: I am a father. I am a son. I am a husband. I am a teacher. One person playing different roles in relation to the rest of humanity.

God has done the same with us.

I have but one name: Jesus. But some people know me as j, jaito, friend, papi, husband, and many other names and titles.

I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Jesus taught man how to pray and prayed to the Father, who is omnipresent, even while in the body of the Man Jesus Christ. He was an example to us, of man being completeley and utterly dependent upon God for everything, including what to say and what to do. Before Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, He spoke out loud to the Father, but not for His sake. But for the sake of those listening, so that they would know it was the Father in Him that did these works that testified of the identity of this Man Jesus Christ.

That's why Jesus said I can do nothing of mine own except what I see and hear the Father do. He's accomodating Himself to our thoughts so we would know that God manifested Himself in the flesh and reconciled the world to Himself in Jesus Christ. The Father was expressing Himself and doing the job necessary through the Man Jesus Christ.

LouisBooth · Feb 7, 2002

As I do agree Jesus was God I don't agree with the father was Jesus. They are distinct yet the same. If jesus was the father then a lot of things in the bible are lies, which is not so. They are distinct but of the same essenice.

"Can anyone find even one passage that shows he remained God? "

Close thunder..he became in the LIKENESS of man. Christ was God on the earth. Just because I stop doing the things that make me the person I am and start acting like an ant I don't stop become Louis and become an ant. I become LIKE an ant.

Thunderchild · Feb 7, 2002

Phl 2:6-8 Who, being in the (form of=MORPHE) God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the (form of=MORPHE) a servant, and was made in the likeness (likeness=HOMOIOMA) of men: And being found in fashion (fashion=SCHEMA) as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The meaning of "MORPHE"? very substance.
Being in very substance God he took upon himself the very substance of a servant.
The meaning of "HOMOIOMA"? resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity
The meaning of "SCHEMA"? the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.

While the comment that he was "made in the likeness of man" might, at a stretch, and taken by itself without regard to the balance of the passage, be said to mean "resembling a man" - the fact that the passage says also that he became "in very substance a servant" shows that this passage does mean he became a man.

LouisBooth · Feb 7, 2002

"LouisBooth,

If I told you that "if you have seen me you have seen my son...":

...have you ACTUALLY seen my son?

...would you know how my son ACTUALLY looks like?

...do I BECOME my SON?

Have you tired of using your brain my friend?

Ed"

Okay, now you're calling Jesus a liar ed? Jesus very clearly said, if you have seen me you have seen the father. Check your bible for details

I never said Jesus became the father, but they are both God. Distinct yet one God. Please don't put words in my mouth again. Thanks.

edpobre · Feb 7, 2002

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

Okay, now you're calling Jesus a liar ed? Jesus very clearly said, if you have seen me you have seen the father. Check your bible for details I never said Jesus became the father, but they are both God. Distinct yet one God. Please don't put words in my mouth again. Thanks.

Then quit using that verse to prove that Jesus is God. Did I call Jesus a liar Louis? Aren't you putting words in my mouth? Did I say Jesus did not say that? What I am saying is by saying that, Jesus did NOT mean to tell you that he is the Father. He did not mean to tell you that he is God.

Ed

edpobre · Feb 7, 2002

LouisBooth,

Thunder:"Can anyone find even one passage that shows he remained God? "

You:Close thunder..he became in the LIKENESS of man. Christ was God on the earth. Just because I stop doing the things that make me the person I am and start acting like an ant I don't stop become Louis and become an ant. I become LIKE an ant.

You forgot your favorite verse Louis. Remember John 1:14? You said that God became the MAN Jesus. And the God who BECAME Jesus the man was Jesus himself. Right? This shows that Thunder is right. Jesus NOT only took the likeness of man. Jesus BECAME man (if indeed Jesus was God who BECAME man).

Now back to Thunder's question: Can you show him and me even one passage that shows Jesus REMAINED God AFTER he BECAME the MAN Jesus?

This time you cannot hide behind the Greeks and CONTEXT my friend.

Ed

edpobre · Feb 7, 2002

Originally posted by jbenjesus
There is but one God, also know as the Father, and who is the Holy Spirit.

This one God played the role of the Son to redeem mankind. We know him biblically and historically to be the Man Jesus Christ.

God, Father, and Holy Spirit are merely titles. His name is Jesus. Jesus came in the name of the Father. The Holy Spirit was sent in the name of Jesus, hence, the name of God, also know as the Father, and who is the Holy Spirit has a name and that name is Jesus.

God, when speaking to us of His plan for the redemption of mankind, accomodated Himself to our thoughts, without violating His Word.

He said He would send His son. The son, however, is none other than God Himself manifested in the flesh. If you think that there was some sort of family of persons in the Godhead you are sorely mistaken.

Speaking to fathers, I ask you, which one of you would send your own son to save another child of yours? Would you not, if you loved your son, go yourself and save him? What would any of us think of a man who took his own son standing beside him and throw him toward his other child who was about to be struck by a bus, in order to save him? Really, what would you think of that man?

You would question why would that man, who supposedly loved his other son, not jump himself to push his other child to safety and take the blow of the bus himself.

God did much the same thing. Yes it says he sent His son, but he used the word son because He conceived this "son" by Himself, Holy Spirit, in the womb of a virgin girl named Mary. Hence, Jesus is known as the Son of God and the Son of Man. He accomodated Himself to our thoughts, without violating His own Word.

Think...

how can Jesus be the High Priest and the Sacrifice?

how can Jesus be the lion and the lamb?

how can Jesus be the alpha and the omega?

how can Jesus be both God and man?

Simple... Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

There are not multiple persons in the Godhead. There wasn't some family meeting in heaven on who would go and the son" volunteered. God himself came as "the son", Jesus Christ to redeem mankind from their sins.

There is one God playing different roles, if you will, or manifesting Himself in different manners to man. He was at many times "the angel of the Lord" in the Old Covenant. He was the captain of the hosts that Joshua ran into in the night. We call these in our terms a theophany. He was and still is the Holy Spirit spoken of in the Old Covenant that came upon and anointed men and women of God to fulfill a particular purpose of God.

The Man Jesus Christ is no different, except that He was born in the flesh of a woman, but conceived of the Holy Spirit of God.

Easiest way I can explain it: I am a father. I am a son. I am a husband. I am a teacher. One person playing different roles in relation to the rest of humanity.

God has done the same with us.

I have but one name: Jesus. But some people know me as j, jaito, friend, papi, husband, and many other names and titles.

I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Jesus taught man how to pray and prayed to the Father, who is omnipresent, even while in the body of the Man Jesus Christ. He was an example to us, of man being completeley and utterly dependent upon God for everything, including what to say and what to do. Before Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, He spoke out loud to the Father, but not for His sake. But for the sake of those listening, so that they would know it was the Father in Him that did these works that testified of the identity of this Man Jesus Christ.

That's why Jesus said I can do nothing of mine own except what I see and hear the Father do. He's accomodating Himself to our thoughts so we would know that God manifested Himself in the flesh and reconciled the world to Himself in Jesus Christ. The Father was expressing Himself and doing the job necessary through the Man Jesus Christ.

How do you know all these things my friend? Are these the result of a fertile imagination? If I am the kind of person who believes in fantasy, I would be with the Heaven's Gate now or having fellowship with David Koresh and Jim Jones wherever they may be.

And please tell us how you know what Jesus was thinking when he prayed aloud before he raised Lazarus? And how do hyou know that Jesus ws accomodating himself to our thoughts, etc.?

I'm sure you don't expect anyone to believe your yarn, do you?

Ed

edpobre · Feb 7, 2002

Originally posted by Josephus
"Your INTERPRETATION that Jesus is MAN in the body BUT he was God in SPIRIT is not only UNBIBLICAL but ABSURD as well. When Jesus said, "But now you seek to kill ME a MAN..." was he referring ONLY to his body?"

Are you saying Jesus didn't have a spirit? LOL

To whom are you asking this question Josephus? You did not quote exactly what I posted. Here it is in its entirety:

Your INTERPRETATION that Jesus is MAN in the body BUT he was God in SPIRIT is not only UNBIBLICAL but ABSURD as well. When Jesus said, "But now you seek to kill ME a MAN..." was he referring ONLY to his body? Wasn't he referring to his WHOLE being which is composed of body, soul and spirit?

Ed

edpobre · Feb 7, 2002

1) John 17:1,3 - Jesus spoke these words, lifted up his eyes to heaven and said: "Father the hour has come....And this is ETERNAL LIFE that they may know YOU the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3)

The FATHER alone is the ONLY true God. Not the son nor the Holy Spirit. The FATHER is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from Jesus, the SON.

2) John 20:17 - Jesus said to her: "Do not cling to me for I have NOT yet ASCENDED to my FATHER; but go to my BRETHREN and say to them: 'I am ASCENDING to my FATHER and your FATHER, and to my GOD and your God."

Again, Jesus emphasizes that he and the FATHER are SEPARATE and DISTINCT. Jesus has a God and Father like us.

3) Luke 10:22 - "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows WHO the son is BUT the Father, and WHO the Father is BUT the son, and the one to whom the son WILLS to reveal him."

This tells us that neither apostle John nor doubting Thomas knows WHO the Father is unless Jesus chose to REVEAL it to them. Thus, the ONLY true God the apostles knew was what was REVEALED to them by Jesus himself, the FATHER.

4) Ephesians 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Apostles Paul and Peter agree with Jesus that like the early Christians, Jesus has a God AND Father.

5) Acts 2:36 - "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has MADE this Jesus hom you crucified both LORD and Christ."

God MADE Jesus LORD. This does NOT make Jesus God.

6) Acts 2:22 - "Men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN attested by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know."

It was God who PERFORMED miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus.

7) Acts 5:31 - "Him God EXALTED to His right hand to be Prince and SAVIOR, to give repentance to Israel, the forgiveness of sins."

God MADE Christ a SAVIOR. Christ is God's WAY of SAVING men from His wrath.

8) Mark 15:34 - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

This verse is further proof that Jesus has a God and cannot do anything by himself.

9) Luke 23:46 - And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my SPIRIT."

This debunks the belief that the SPIRIT of Jesus is God.

10) 1 Cor. 8:6 - "Yet for us there is only one God, the FATHER, of whom are all things, and we for him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

This verse shows that Paul did NOT think Jesus is God.

11) 1 Tim. 2:5 - "For there is ONLY ONE God (the Father - i Cor. 8:6) and ONE Mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

At the time this was written, Jesus was already in heaven, sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1).

These are TRUTHS that should be taken into consideration when arriving at conclusions based on private interpretation of scriptures.

Ed

ZoneChaos · Feb 8, 2002

1) John 17:1,3 - Jesus spoke these words, lifted up his eyes to heaven and said: "Father the hour has come....And this is ETERNAL LIFE that they may know YOU the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3)

The FATHER alone is the ONLY true God. Not the son nor the Holy Spirit. The FATHER is SEPARATE and DISTINCT from Jesus, the SON.

"The FATHER alone..." is what you have added to scripture. The verse itself does not state this.

2) John 20:17 - Jesus said to her: "Do not cling to me for I have NOT yet ASCENDED to my FATHER; but go to my BRETHREN and say to them: 'I am ASCENDING to my FATHER and your FATHER, and to my GOD and your God."

Again, Jesus emphasizes that he and the FATHER are SEPARATE and DISTINCT. Jesus has a God and Father like us.

Yes, they are seperate and distinct.. I have been telling you that for months now. Father is not the Son. Son is not the Father. I have also been talling you that while they are seperate they are ALSO the same God.

3) Luke 10:22 - "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows WHO the son is BUT the Father, and WHO the Father is BUT the son, and the one to whom the son WILLS to reveal him."

This tells us that neither apostle John nor doubting Thomas knows WHO the Father is unless Jesus chose to REVEAL it to them. Thus, the ONLY true God the apostles knew was what was REVEALED to them by Jesus himself, the FATHER.

Hmm.. the verse is saying that no one can know God, unless God reveals Himself to them. I have no idea what you just said as it relates to that verse.

4) Ephesians 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Apostles Paul and Peter agree with Jesus that like the early Christians, Jesus has a God AND Father.

The Trinity relationship is it relates to itslef in complex. God (all three) is the God of all, including the three. Jesus has a God, as we do, but Jeus is also God. Is Jesus the God of Himself? Yes nad no. Jesus, who is the "Son of God" has two complete natures: Devine and man. Tins Devine nature, Son of God, is God. The "Son of" is not a paternal term, but a term to denote that Jesus was sent of God, as God. "Begotten is not used the same here, a we use it to describe our relationship between us and our children. The other nature, mankind, called Jesus, who is the Son of God, is also a man. This man, Jesus Chrsit was human in everyway, including subordinate to God, as we are. The man Jesus worshipped God, even though HE was God, and yet his dual nature is what negates Him from worshipping Himself.

5) Acts 2:36 - "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has MADE this Jesus hom you crucified both LORD and Christ."

God MADE Jesus LORD. This does NOT make Jesus God.

True. He already was God.

6) Acts 2:22 - "Men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN attested by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know."

It was God who PERFORMED miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus.

Correct.. and ot be more precise, it was God who performed miracles throught the human nature of the Son, Jesus Christ.

7) Acts 5:31 - "Him God EXALTED to His right hand to be Prince and SAVIOR, to give repentance to Israel, the forgiveness of sins."

God MADE Christ a SAVIOR. Christ is God's WAY of SAVING men from His wrath.

Totally agree.

8) Mark 15:34 - And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

This verse is further proof that Jesus has a God and cannot do anything by himself.

No, it does not say that at all. What is happeneing in this verse is a sunject on the nature of sin. Beofr ethis, Jesus ha dno sin, at all, and becasue fo this, experiecned God as Adam did before the fall of man kind. We as men do ont have that cponnection with God.. the full poresence if God in our lives, spiritually, becasue of our sin, until we repent and are rdeemed. For Jesus, His Devine nature, (as well as God the Father and the Holy Spirit) "turned thier backs" on Him becasue He now had what he didn't have before: sin. Not is own, but ours. God couod not be in the presence of sin, spiritually, thus Jesus Spiritual side, or His devine nature of what made him God "forsake" his Human nature.

9) Luke 23:46 - And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my SPIRIT."

This debunks the belief that the SPIRIT of Jesus is God.

I agree actually. I don't thikn the "spirit" of a man is anything more than the breath of God (whatever that is), but I also do not thikn the "Holy Spirit" is the same as the breath of God, but just has that loabel to help mankinf undestand the relationship. The Holy Spirit of God was not the spirit Jesus was talkaing about here. None-the-less, this verse shows nothing about wether Jesus is or is not God.

10) 1 Cor. 8:6 - "Yet for us there is only one God, the FATHER, of whom are all things, and we for him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

This verse shows that Paul did NOT think Jesus is God.

Actually it doesn't. Paul is showing that through God (all three person as a whole) created all things, but it is thorugh a member of the trininty, the Son, that all things are through, by His haman nature of being Jesus Chrsit.

11) 1 Tim. 2:5 - "For there is ONLY ONE God (the Father - i Cor. 8:6) and ONE Mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

At the time this was written, Jesus was already in heaven, sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1).

Ok.

I agree.

These are TRUTHS that should be taken into consideration when arriving at conclusions based on private interpretation of scriptures.

The verses? Yes, those truths should be taken into consideration, not your interpretation, or mine.

LouisBooth · Feb 8, 2002

No ed, Jesus came in the likeness of man. Look at Phil 2:5-8. It says the word became flesh. Ie it became as we are. Look up the greek for that word and maybe that will help you understand ed.

ZC covered all your points. Jesus is God ed, the bible clearly states that.

Thunderchild · Feb 8, 2002

"being made in the likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man"

"being made in the homoioma of men. and being found in schema as a man"

"Likeness" might be a little ambiguous, but coupled with "in fashion" any possible confusion is eliminated.

A Rolls Royce might be very expensive, very comfortably appointed, more reliable (?) than, say, a Suzuki swift - however, in the scheme of things, it remains just a car.

A Commodore 64 may be outdated, limited in its capablities and altogether substandard by comparison with the modern day computer, but it remains, in the scheme of things, a computer.

Let a person look at a schematic diagram of a computer. Assuming he has the skill, the equipment and the components - using that schematic diagram - and if he does not deviate from the diagram, putting the components together in precisely the manner dictated by the diagram (assuming the diagram is accurate) the end result will be a computer. It may not have the tidy case, or the pretty name badge, but in the scheme of things, it will be a computer.

The phrase "scheme of things" is precisely what is meant by the Greek word "schema" - "schematic diagram" derives from the Greek word "schema". Jesus was found, according to the scheme of things, a man.

jbenjesus · Feb 8, 2002

To Edpobre,

Is your name to be translated "poor Ed". I just ask b/c "pobre" in Spanish is poor.

Anyway, Jesus said "if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins."

Who is I AM he?

He was referring to God the Father. God the Father was in the Son. So Jesus could say, "I and my Father are one." Paul could say, "God was manifested in the flesh." Paul could also say, "God was in the Man Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself."

Never was there someone like Jesus, fully God and fully man. Man has no concept of such a thing because he has never been God and man.

Before I shared in my own words who Jesus was - God manifested in the flesh - I gave you scripturally who the apostles identified Jesus as, to them. If they were wrong, then we are all a lost lot and most deceived. But I know they were right. And what they preach I also preach to you.

Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. He was known as "God with us" from His very birth. At this point, your so intent on proving your point (which has been clearly shown to be lacking) that you have ceased to listen to anyone here.

I have already shown you scripture in response to your last post to me (before this one of mine).

You fail to realize that Jesus spoke at times as man (humanity) and at other times He spoke as God (Diety). You fail to realize He was both the Son of Man and the Son of God. Being the Son was how he emptied himself. You fail to realize this unique distinction of Jesus Christ. He was both God and man.

The invisible Spirit of God who does not have flesh and bones enrobed Himself (made Himself perceivable and visible - which John the apostle spoke of in John chapter 1 and I John chapter 1) in the flesh and manifested Himself to man.

To Zonechaos,

You said,

"The Holy Spirit of God was not the spirit Jesus was talkaing about here."

Are you saying there are two Spirits? Scripture explicitly declares there is only one.

Romans 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Does this verse say there are 3 Spirits or that the Spirit, the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ are none other than one and the same Holy Spirit?

Optimus_P · Feb 8, 2002

ED,

I will tell you one last time. You will control yourself when conversing with others. No one has said anything bad about you or your beliefs. You will refrain from comments that demean and are rude. such as:

"I'm sure you don't expect anyone to believe your yarn, do you?"

Everyone can see that you must be a real understanding person that is so true to there faith that you ovestly forgot the rule on turning the other cheak. or to be tolorant of others.

Be rude/discurtious/demeaning to any other users reguarless of the conversation and i will personaly remove your post reguarless of the rest of its contents.

you will be gental and respectful in all your words. Now please everyone continue the conversation at hand.

jbenjesus · Feb 8, 2002

I wanted to explain about God accomodating His Word to our thoughts in more detail.

This is an excerpt from a teaching:

Let me tell you something about the Word of God. Do you know that God in scripture very often, without doing violence to the truth, accommodates himself to our thoughts? I said He accommodates Himself to our thoughts. For instance, the Bible says God repented. Now we know that God is immutable. He doesn't repent. God uses that language in talking to your finite mind and mine to get home a certain truth. He repented.

The Bible says God remembered. God remembered Noah. Now you know God never forgets. Yet the Bible says God remembers. God accommodating Himself to your thought and mine without doing violence to the truth.

God said to Moses, "I have come down to deliver them." (The Israelites). Now bless your heart. God is omnipresent. He's everywhere present at once. He doesn't need to come down. He's here. He's there. He's everywhere.

The Bible says the sun stood still. Was God misleading the people? Is the Bible misleading? Who ever believed the sun moved? The Bible says the sun stood still and hasted not to go down for a whole day. God accommodating Himself, (without doing violence to the truth), to your concept and mine.

The Bible talks about the four corners of the earth and you know that really there's no four corners of the earth any more than there's four corners on a baseball.

Gordon Magee

I pray God gives revelation of Himself to those that are humble and seeking Him. I hope this helps in understanding Him.

God will not reveal Himself to the proud and arrogant who obstinantly rely on their own understanding.

If Jesus is God, can these verses be true?

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