Co-Founders of Exodus International (largest ex-gay ministry) say NO ONE was healed!

davedjy

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Michael Bussey and Gary Cooper, co-founders of the "ex-gay" ministry, Exodus International, reported that "ex-gay" programs reinforce feelings of guilt and failure in their participants. After they accepted their gay identity and their love for each other, they denounced the organization they helped to create as fraudulent and indicated that many of their clients become profoundly depressed and entertained thoughts of suicide when they found themselves unable to change their sexual orientation. They also stated that in their personal experience "not one person was healed" of homosexuality.


http://www.outfront.org/library/fact.html
 
D

DMagoh

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You continue to post your gay websites, AND continue to avoid my question.

In a different thread, I posted a question for homosexuals, bisexuals, and ex-gays...basically anyone who has ever dealt with being attracted to members of the same sex. Oh you used the thread to start debating whether homosexuality is natural or unnatural, sin or not sin, etc. But that was not the point of the thread.

Why wont you answer the simple question? What are you afraid of?

Here is a link to the thread - read my first two posts, and then unless you are afraid to answer, answer the simple question:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5630139
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Michael Bussey and Gary Cooper, co-founders of the "ex-gay" ministry, Exodus International, reported that "ex-gay" programs reinforce feelings of guilt and failure in their participants. After they accepted their gay identity and their love for each other, they denounced the organization they helped to create as fraudulent and indicated that many of their clients become profoundly depressed and entertained thoughts of suicide when they found themselves unable to change their sexual orientation. They also stated that in their personal experience "not one person was healed" of homosexuality.


http://www.outfront.org/library/fact.html[/SIZE]

This according to gay website NOT direct quotes from Bussey and Cooper. Wonder why not nobody, not no how can quote any credible primary sources. Always 2d-3d hand stuff from gay websites.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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This according to gay website NOT direct quotes from Bussey and Cooper. Wonder why not nobody, not no how can quote any credible primary sources. Always 2d-3d hand stuff from gay websites.

And yet quotes from sites that do nothing but hate on gays and homosexuals and the like don't apply to that logic?
 
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GwynApNudd

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This according to gay website NOT direct quotes from Bussey and Cooper. Wonder why not nobody, not no how can quote any credible primary sources. Always 2d-3d hand stuff from gay websites.

Davedjy's post was not a snippet from the link he posted, which is simply a link to one of his favorite sites.

Instead, he simply paraphrased a news article which appeared in many media, including generally respected ones like the Associated Press, which is where I found the same story.

I agree that he would have been more effective had he included direct quotes and linked to the story. As I am doing in this post.

AP said:
"Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families," the three said in a statement released outside the Los Angeles Gay & Lesbian Center.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_on_re_us/gay_ministry_apology_1

The story was also carried by CBS News, The Los Angeles Times, and even in conservative Christian outlets such as The Christian Post.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Davedjy's post was not a snippet from the link he posted, which is simply a link to one of his favorite sites.

Instead, he simply paraphrased a news article which appeared in many media, including generally respected ones like the Associated Press, which is where I found the same story.

I agree that he would have been more effective had he included direct quotes and linked to the story. As I am doing in this post.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_on_re_us/gay_ministry_apology_1

The story was also carried by CBS News, The Los Angeles Times, and even in conservative Christian outlets such as The Christian Post.[/SIZE]

Thank you. From the same article.
Exodus' president, Alan Chambers, said the ministry's methods have helped many people, including himself.

"Exodus is here for people who want an alternative to homosexuality," Chambers said by phone. "There are thousands of people like me who have overcome this. I think there's room for more than one opinion on this subject, and giving people options isn't dangerous."

Founded in 1976, the Orlando, Fla.-based Exodus has grown to include more than 120 ministries in the United States and Canada and over 150 ministries overseas. It promotes "freedom from homosexuality" through prayer, counseling and group therapy.​
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]And yet quotes from sites that do nothing but hate on gays and homosexuals and the like don't apply to that logic?[/SIZE]

I addressed a specific quote. If you see specific quotes that this applies to take it up then, don't get in my face with some vague generality demonstrating your own bias.
 
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GwynApNudd

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Thank you. From the same article.
Exodus' president, Alan Chambers, said the ministry's methods have helped many people, including himself.​


"Exodus is here for people who want an alternative to homosexuality," Chambers said by phone. "There are thousands of people like me who have overcome this. I think there's room for more than one opinion on this subject, and giving people options isn't dangerous."​


Founded in 1976, the Orlando, Fla.-based Exodus has grown to include more than 120 ministries in the United States and Canada and over 150 ministries overseas. It promotes "freedom from homosexuality" through prayer, counseling and group therapy.​

Yes, often the news comes "pre-digested" into simple soundbites which are not enough to really understand the issue, and the media present it as fair and balanced by providing such soundbites from both sides of the issue. And so the article, even with its direct quotes, is not evidence for either side.

On the other hand, there would not be an article at all if Bussee and the others had not made their statement. Chambers' statement was made only because the media came to him seeking a "rebuttal."

Be that as it may, Bussee's statement would be, in legal practice, considered to be a "declaration against one's interest," while Chambers' statement is self-serving.

"Exodus is here for people who want an alternative to homosexuality," Chambers said by phone. "There are thousands of people like me who have overcome this. [SIZE=+1][Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?][/SIZE]I think there's room for more than one opinion on this subject, and giving people options isn't dangerous." [SIZE=+1][Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?][/SIZE]
 
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Der Alte

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. . . [SIZE=-1]Be that as it may, Bussee's statement would be, in legal practice, considered to be a "declaration against one's interest,"[/SIZE] . . .

It is only a "declaration against one's interest," if they don't have a different agenda that would benefit from such declarations. What better way to get in the good graces of homosexuals than feeding their more militant views?
 
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GwynApNudd

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It is only a "declaration against one's interest," if they don't have a different agenda that would benefit from such declarations. What better way to get in the good graces of homosexuals than feeding their more militant views?[Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?]

Yes, a statement against one's interests can still be rebutted, but the burden of going forward the falls on the one rebutting it.
 
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Myriah

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I disagree that NO ONE has been healed Dave.

That's not the truth because I've seen the healing firsthand.

Yet, my belief is that only the Holy Spirit can call anyone to change a behavior.

For myself, I know the only person I can change is ME while leaning on the Lord through faith.

I truly can't change anyone. But my belief is that we cannot judge or we will be judged.

I am also a liberal to the core, so I believe homosexuals deserve equal rights. Not necessarily marriage, but same sex unions.

It's their life and their choice. Only the Holy Spirit can guide them into or out of what decisions someone makes for their own life.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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I addressed a specific quote. If you see specific quotes that this applies to take it up then, don't get in my face with some vague generality demonstrating your own bias.

No, simply pointing out that you do this all the time but the same never applies to other sites if they agree with you.
 
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RMDY

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And yet quotes from sites that do nothing but hate on gays and homosexuals and the like don't apply to that logic?

I would like to make a point:
I know some homosexuals get depressed up making a sacrifice in their lives for Christ, but so did I.

Infact, I struggle and at times still struggle with abstaining from hetrosexual desires and passions. Not to say I am not interested in women, but I struggle to keep my body away from touching yourself, from premarital sex, and from lusting and other desires and passions that would cause me to sin along those lines. It isn't easy and several months ago I contemplated giving up on Christ over that issue, because I felt it is too difficult and impossible. I didn't tell anyone about this, especially people on this forum informing me that touching yourself is not a sin. But inside, I felt conflicted, like I felt such things were not right. I always have always felt this way, even before I decided Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

It isn't easy being a christian. I burn with passions all the time on the inside. It depresses me at times, especially when I feel the spiritual warfare happening right within me, with the Holy Spirit pushing me in one direction and my sin nature pushing me in another.

Especially how I have a girlfriend. It isn't easy....

Sacrifices are hard to make...

I'm not telling anyone to do anything but just making a point here about depression.

As Christians, it isn't the life that people make it out to be. It is about suffering and enduring pain just as Christ also did while God loves us at the same time. Were blessed and suffering at the same time. We burn with passions and desires and are always tempted and attacked by the Evil One at the same time and go through trials and hardships, for the sake of Christ.

It is joyful and depressing at the same time when one experiences spiritual warfare from within him or herself, going against the grain of his own body and mind. It is frustrating and depressing indeed. But we are given joy. Like how women experience the pains of child birth, or how we all experience the pains of working out in a gym, or preparing our bodies for a race, we all feel the joys that come with success. This Christ is our success, and when we take refuge in Him, he helps us in our time of pain and suffering so we can have a way out of it through endurance and faith.
The Holy Spirit brings us joy and happyness, even in times of suffering and sadness and in times where things don't go our way. Use Paul as an example, he suffered greatly! And he was joyful all the way.

The joy of the Lord is our strength. I feel better abstaining from all these desires and passions of mine because I am doing it for the Lord! The joy of loving him and him loving me back all them more makes up for all the suffering! In fact, now, I only experience the depression, since I am breaking His heart, when I sin and fall short of the glory of God by falling back into old habits, but His strength is made perfect in our weakness! How the Holy Spirit wages war within us to make us new creations! Praise the Lord!
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]No, simply pointing out that you do this all the time but the same never applies to other sites if they agree with you[/SIZE].

Still wrong! Still talking in vague generalities. If and when you see any specific incident, then and only then bring it up. Please don't get in my face with stuff like, "you do this all the time." What I do all the time is go thru posts line by line showing how they are wrong.
 
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DMagoh

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Am I missing something? Does this somehow change what the Bible says?

I have yet to see even one non-homosexual Bible scholar that says that Romans 1:27 does NOT condemn homosexual acts. Even the great liberal scholar Tony Campolo says that he has no explanation for Romans 1:27 other than it appears to condemn homosexuality.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

This verse pretty clearly says...
  • They abandoned natural relations with women;
  • They are inflamed in lust for other men;
  • They have commited indecent acts with other men; and
  • They will receive the due penalty for their perversion.
Tony Campolo is a very liberal Biblical scholar and in an interview with Sojouner's Magazine (a liberal Christian publication) he states...

"I believe that the Bible does not allow for same-gender sexual intercourse or marriage..."

AND

"...Romans 1:26-27 makes it clear that any homosexual sexual activity is contrary to what the Bible allows."
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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Still wrong! Still talking in vague generalities. If and when you see any specific incident, then and only then bring it up. Please don't get in my face with stuff like, "you do this all the time." What I do all the time is go thru posts line by line showing how they are wrong.

Then please, give me a list of all the sites that support homosexuality that you don't think automatically fall under "unreliable".
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Then please, give me a list of all the sites that support homosexuality that you don't think automatically fall under "unreliable".[/SIZE]

Since I don't make a practice of visiting sites that promote/support homosexuality, I don't have a list of such sites. But I have addressed every site I have seen posted.

Why don't you provide me some information & links from 2-3 sites you think are reliable, and I will review their data.
 
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davedjy

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I disagree that NO ONE has been healed Dave.

That's not the truth because I've seen the healing firsthand.

Yet, my belief is that only the Holy Spirit can call anyone to change a behavior.

For myself, I know the only person I can change is ME while leaning on the Lord through faith.

I truly can't change anyone. But my belief is that we cannot judge or we will be judged.

I am also a liberal to the core, so I believe homosexuals deserve equal rights. Not necessarily marriage, but same sex unions.

It's their life and their choice. Only the Holy Spirit can guide them into or out of what decisions someone makes for their own life.
I respectfully disagree...there isn't anything to heal, it is a valid orientation in over 450 Vertebrate species = diversity.
Do you have any research showing otherwise by respected medical fields?

"The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable." American Psychological Association 1998

"Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so." American Psychiatric Association, 1994

http://www.outfront.org/library/fact.html
 
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davedjy

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Since I don't make a practice of visiting sites that promote/support homosexuality, I don't have a list of such sites. But I have addressed every site I have seen posted.

Why don't you provide me some information & links from 2-3 sites you think are reliable, and I will review their data.

Your "addressing" of such posts, doesn't discredit any of them. Your posts are commentary with yet ANOTHER interpretation, at best, and you saying "it is unreliable", just adds commentary, along with your same one old doctrinal support. Saying something is "unreliable" or "incredible", does not make it because you say so!

Am I missing something? Does this somehow change what the Bible says?

I have yet to see even one non-homosexual Bible scholar that says that Romans 1:27 does NOT condemn homosexual acts. Even the great liberal scholar Tony Campolo says that he has no explanation for Romans 1:27 other than it appears to condemn homosexuality.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27

This verse pretty clearly says...
  • They abandoned natural relations with women;
  • They are inflamed in lust for other men;
  • They have commited indecent acts with other men; and
  • They will receive the due penalty for their perversion.
Tony Campolo is a very liberal Biblical scholar and in an interview with Sojouner's Magazine (a liberal Christian publication) he states...

"I believe that the Bible does not allow for same-gender sexual intercourse or marriage..."

AND

"...Romans 1:26-27 makes it clear that any homosexual sexual activity is contrary to what the Bible allows."

God turned those people up for idolatry, and they engaged in mass orgies and cult worship, which is the very reason why they were given up. This is not a verse to be used against gay and lesbians who are NATURALLY attracted to their same gender.

22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over


The first is Romans, Chapter 1. In this passage, the Apostle Paul gives a very specific list of characteristics describing those in question: He describes them as those who once knew God, but who chose not to honor God as God. Instead, they worshiped material images of human beings, birds, animals, and reptiles as objects of worship rather than the One True Living God. We are told that they were filled with EVERY kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, and malice. They were full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossip, slander, insolence, haughtiness, and boastfulness. They were inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. (NRSV) As a result of their total depravity, God turned them over to complete spiritual ruin, so that they left no stone of sexual debauchery unturned, engaging in mass orgies and idolatrous sexual cult worship, which included both homosexual and heterosexual debauchery.

These murderous, malicious people who worshiped idols and hated God after once knowing Him, have NOTHING to do with people who have a sincere desire to love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ and who happen to be homosexual. Today, there are multitudes of homosexual people who are tirelessly yearning to be a part of the Church so that they can WORSHIP the One True Living God and profess Jesus as their Savior. Anyone who can possibly equate the monstrous, reprobate people of Romans 1 to modern-day gay and lesbian people who reach out to humanity, love and respect their parents, and who have been expelled from the church they love, just for being homosexual, is not using common sense! Like those religious leaders who scorned Jesus, they have chosen to believe lies founded on their traditions.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm
 
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