Word Faith/Positive Confession

Originally posted by wildernesse
My problem is saying that those believers who aren't in full health or in the highest economic level don't have a good relationship with God.

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Exactly! It's not right for them to question why someone hasn't been healed, or don't have alot of wealth. And that's what they do when they tell someone that they haven't been healed, or don't have what they want because they don't have enough of, or the right type of faith.

The truth is they cannot possibly know what's in another mans heart, only God knows what's in someones heart.

 

"Why do you think it is an either/or situation? "

Because the physical body you have now won't be with you for long. God isn't worried about the here and now in this context, he is looking at the whole picture.

"I don't think that either extreme is healthy--I see one side as glorifying themselves through their faith and the other as not acknowledging that God moves today in powerful ways. Our faith is important--it is through our belief that we move in our love through this world, sharing God's blessings with others. But it is God's power in our lives that transforms us and empowers us and our faith."

Tibac, that's not it at all. I know and have seen God heal and move in a mighty way, but for someone to tell me that because someone dies of cancer they didn't have enough faith is outragious and quite unbiblical!!!

LouisBooth:

Obviously, you're not part of either of those extremes. Those extremes are the danger that people could fall into. I accuse no one on this thread of actually being a member of either extreme--just that those are the ultimate ends of the opposing sides.

--tibac

Tibac, that's not it at all. I know and have seen God heal and move in a mighty way, but for someone to tell me that because someone dies of cancer they didn't have enough faith is outragious and quite unbiblical!!!

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Ok Louis, what is you Biblical explanation of what happened?

"I accuse no one on this thread of actually being a member of either extreme--just that those are the ultimate ends of the opposing sides."

The WOF movement is the extreme. The major teachers are anyway.

"Ok Louis, what is you Biblical explanation of what happened?"

Ecc 7:14 ie God's will.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Simply put: Your sick because your not obedient. Or your sick because you won't listen to what God says. "

that is a lie that denies what the bible says.

Job was sick and obendient as were lots of people in the bible. I see it everyday. If you sit there and tell me my friends that die of cancer are either 1. not obenient to God or 2. not listening to him I'd say you need to take a long walk off a short pier because you are DEAD wrong. Snup, you are wrong about this and if you pray God will show you you're wrong.

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You should remember that Job was rebuked by God for his arrogance, which is sin.

Do me a favor and look into this perspective of mine and show me by scripture how I'm wrong.

"You should remember that Job was rebuked by God for his arrogance, which is sin."

Agreed, but the fact remains God didn't heal job though he wanted it. He was faithful, but him being sick at that time was in God's will. he had done nothing wrong, nor was he not faithful enough nor was he living sinfully.

Job 42:

10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
14 And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
17 So Job died, being old and full of days.


and we have a much better covenant today!!! Hallelujah!!!

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"You should remember that Job was rebuked by God for his arrogance, which is sin."

Agreed, but the fact remains God didn't heal job though he wanted it. He was faithful, but him being sick at that time was in God's will. he had done nothing wrong, nor was he not faithful enough nor was he living sinfully.

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That is very different from what Job himself said. . .also, different from what God said . . .

Job 1:5 We see Job making sacrifices for his children's sins but we don't see that he ever corrected them.  We are told to train up a child in the way that he should go.  Job seemingly failed to do that with his children.

Look at Job 1:21. I'm reading the Amplied Bible, Job said, "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away". Now look at Job 2:6, God says, "Behold, he is in your (satan) hand; only spare his life". Job was wrong in his assessment of the situation. God had given but it was not God who was taking it away.

In Hosea 4:6 God says, "My people parish for lack of knowledge.

True God gave satan permission to attack, but it was actually Jobs lack of knowledge that brought it on, Job 42:3 Job said, "I have rashly uttered what I did not understand".

We see that God stirred up adversity against Job by boasting to satan about Jobs right living (not a right heart). 

Prov 29:25 says, The fear of man bringeth a snare:but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe".

In Job 3:25,26 Job says, "For the thing which I greatly fear comes upon me, and that of which I am afraid befalls me. I was not or am not at ease, or had I or have I rest, nor was I or am I quiet, yet trouble came and still comes upon me".

Look also at Job 13:3 (Amp) Job said, Surely I wish to speak to the Almighty, and I desire to argue and reason my case with God [that He may explain the conflict between what I believe of Him and what I see of Him]." Job did not turn against God but he did turn on Him. Jobs attitude was one of self pity, self-righteousness, complaining, defiance and lack of trust.

We see God's correction using Elihu beginning in chapter 32. The last chapter, after Gods correction of Job, 42:1-6 "Then Job said to the Lord, I know that You can do all things, and that no thought or purpose of Yours can be restrained or thwarted. [You said to me] Who is this that darkens and obscures counsel [by words] without knowledge? Therefore, [I now see] I have [rashly] uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. [I had virtually said to You what You have said to me:] Hear, I beseech You, and I will speak; I will demand of You, and You declare to me. I had heard of You [only] by the hearing of the ear, but now my [spiritual] eye sees You. Therefore I loathe [my words] and abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"You should remember that Job was rebuked by God for his arrogance, which is sin."

Agreed, but the fact remains God didn't heal job though he wanted it. He was faithful, but him being sick at that time was in God's will. he had done nothing wrong, nor was he not faithful enough nor was he living sinfully.

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How can you agree with me that Job had sin in his life, and then tell me that he did nothing wrong.  If you agree that he was arrogant and that the bible says that God resist the proud, then it is clear that all the Job went thru was God's resistence to Job's pride.  It was Jobs sin of pride (along with some others) that cause God to allow Job to go thru this ordeal.  Notice also that the restoration did not occure untill Job repented.

God would not have resisted Job if he did not have sin in his heart.

The story of Job is a clear picture of sin opening the door to sickness and many other kinds of cures.  It also shows the clear connection between repentence and restoration (healing).

"Job 1:5 We see Job making sacrifices for his children's sins but we don't see that he ever corrected them. We are told to train up a child in the way that he should go. Job seemingly failed to do that with his children. "

LOL. This has got to be some of the worst scripture twisting I have ever seen. Yes he corrected them. The bible declares Job BLAMELESS. Thus he was a good man who did correct them for their sins. What a terrible way to read scripture quaf. I think you need to read the text instead of adding your own words to it.

"Job was wrong in his assessment of the situation. God had given but it was not God who was taking it away. "

No, Job wasn't wrong at all in his assesment. God allows it to happen, thus it was in his will for it to happen.

"True God gave satan permission to attack, but it was actually Jobs lack of knowledge that brought it on, "

LOL, another scripture twisting God allows satan to do this to him long before job knew anything about it. You're again adding your own words to scripture Quaf. You're wrong in your interpreation and I find it appauling that you seek to discredit Job for what God says about him being a BLAMELESS MAN OF INTEGRITY.

Quaf, its quite clear to me that you will go to any lenght to prove you point, even so much as changing the bible.

"How can you agree with me that Job had sin in his life, and then tell me that he did nothing wrong. "

Because before anything happened to him God declared he was blameless and full of integrity, who am I to argue with God about it?
He was not sinning, he was in God's will, yet he was struck with sickness and God allowed all of his worldly possentions to be taken from him. Its a clear example proving the WOF movement wrong.


"It was Jobs sin of pride (along with some others) that cause God to allow Job to go thru this ordeal"

Wrong snup. God himself says Job was BLAMELESS before all of this happend. God was testing him, nothing else. He had done no sin to encourge it before hand.

What's really funny is that Jobs friends all accuses him of doing some sin and Job said, no no I haven't!! Then he questions God, why did you do this to me? God says, I don't have to tell you because I'm in control. Its a perfect retort to the people who believe being a good or faithful christian means a non-hardship life

You know, I have migraine headaches quite often. There is no denying the pain - it is definitely there. It has even landed me in the hospital a few times.

And yet, I think of myself as healed. My faith in God allows me to understand that I am not in bondage to these migraines. I am not a victim. I am not defined by affliction.

I am set free in Jesus Christ.

I am perfectly healed by the Holy Spirit.

I have been made anew by my heavenly Father.

I believe 100% that we are all healed by faith. The problem is when we misdefine "healthy". When we define "healthy" using worldly standards, we fall short. When we define "healthy" by heavenly standards, we see the strength of God.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
What's really funny is that Jobs friends all accuses him of doing some sin and Job said, no no I haven't!! Then he questions God, why did you do this to me? God says, I don't have to tell you because I'm in control. Its a perfect retort to the people who believe being a good or faithful christian means a non-hardship life

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Give me the verse God says that Louis.

Also, read that last chapter in Job very carefully.  Job admits to sin.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"How can you agree with me that Job had sin in his life, and then tell me that he did nothing wrong. "

Because before anything happened to him God declared he was blameless and full of integrity, who am I to argue with God about it?
He was not sinning, he was in God's will, yet he was struck with sickness and God allowed all of his worldly possentions to be taken from him. Its a clear example proving the WOF movement wrong.


"It was Jobs sin of pride (along with some others) that cause God to allow Job to go thru this ordeal"

Wrong snup. God himself says Job was BLAMELESS before all of this happend. God was testing him, nothing else. He had done no sin to encourge it before hand.

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We both agree that Job was guilty of pride, yet God calls him blameless and upright.  There is much contradiction in your assesment of Job and it stems from the apparent contradictions in the statements that God Himself makes.  But God's assestment in the first chapter of Job is based soully on the law which does not deal with matters of the heart.  The truth is that Job like the rich young ruler can keep all of the law and be blameless as far as the law is concerned and still have pride and fear in their hearts, both of which Job is guilty of.  To say that Job was without sin because God called him blameless is to deniegh what you believe and what the rest of the book concludes.  The fact is that Job was blameless and still was sinning, because his sins were matters of the heart, which the law does not deal with.

Therefore this statement is true because God resist the proud even though the proud is not breaking the law. 

"It was Jobs sin of pride (along with some others) that cause God to allow Job to go thru this ordeal"

The truth is that God could have called the pharisees of Jesus day blameless also.

Originally posted by SnuP
We both agree that Job was guilty of pride, yet God calls him blameless and upright.  There is much contradiction in your assesment of Job and it stems from the apparent contradictions in the statements that God Himself makes.  But God's assestment in the first chapter of Job is based soully on the law which does not deal with matters of the heart.  The truth is that Job like the rich young ruler can keep all of the law and be blameless as far as the law is concerned and still have pride and fear in their hearts, both of which Job is guilty of.  To say that Job was without sin because God called him blameless is to deniegh what you believe and what the rest of the book concludes.  The fact is that Job was blameless and still was sinning, because his sins were matters of the heart, which the law does not deal with.

Therefore this statement is true because God resist the proud even though the proud is not breaking the law. 

"It was Jobs sin of pride (along with some others) that cause God to allow Job to go thru this ordeal"

The truth is that God could have called the pharisees of Jesus day blameless also.

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Thanks Snup,

Exactly what I wanted to say but the words eluded me.

Sorta like the story I heard of the little boy who kept jumping up and down on the front seat of a moving car.  His mother finely reached over and forced him to sit and told him not to move.  He sat there silently then said, "I may be sittin' down on the outside, but I'm standin' up on the inside . .

His body was obeying, but his heart was not.

"Give me the verse God says that Louis."

sure, I'll give you a whole chapter. Job 38.

In chapter 31 job askes the question, what the heck did I do wrong to deserve this God? In job 38 God says, "you can't understand don't question me. Its my will."

"Job admits to sin."

yes, he admits to questioning God instead of just doing things on faith, that's the thing Job did wrong, he said, 'I'm a good man, I don't deserve this." It was God's will it happened. Job questioned that and God said I am the one that knows, you aren't. I'm right and you're not. Don't question me.

"But God's assestment in the first chapter of Job is based soully on the law which does not deal with matters of the heart. "

*sigh* wrong. You have no idea what intregrity and blameless mean do you? Job was good inside and out in God's sight.

"To say that Job was without sin because God called him blameless is to deniegh what you believe and what the rest of the book concludes. "

nope snup, again you're inserting YOUR WORDS into the bible. It says God saw him as blameless and a man of integrty. He shuns evil. God said it himself, you're just trying to justify your view by twisting scripture and I'm not gonna let ya, sorry. Its very clear in the converstion with Satan, God says, you wanted me to attack him for no reason...Satan says, its because you've been too good to him so he loves you. God says, okay, go at it. its a pretty clear to say that the WOF is wrong according to the bible.

"The truth is that God could have called the pharisees of Jesus day blameless also."

LOL, wrong again, will your rationatlization come to no end? God clearly said they were sinners. and not blameless.