Reformation

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 23, 2002

Ok, it seems to me, from what I have read, that the reformation was created by three abuses of the Catholic Church :

1. Excess Wealth

2. Immoral Popes

3. Selling Indulgences

"...the five Vicars of Christ who ruled the Holy See during Magellan's lifetime [1480-1521] were the least Christian of men; the least devout, least scrupulous, least compassionate, and among the least chaste - lechers, almost without exception. Ruthless in their pursuit of political power and personal gain, they were medieval despots who used their holy office for blackmail and extortion."
- William Manchester (Manchester, p. 37)

What I don't understand, is how the Protestant theology came from, since the protests were against the above abuses of Church power. 

The core beliefs agreed upon by the various protestors became:

1. All mankind are unregenerate sinners - there is nothing that man can do on his own to achieve salvation
2. Sin is a massive gulf between God and humans - God sent his Son, Jesus, to redeem the sins of mankind
3. Through faith in Jesus, humans can become reconciled (justified) with God
4. Salvation for humans beings is through the Grace (unmerited favor) of God only - No one is worthy of salvation
5. Mankind is not saved through works - works are a result of justification, not a cause

How did the bad behavior of 5 popes create a new theology, given that the core Catholic beliefs never changed, despite the bad behavior of some Popes?

niwde · Sep 23, 2002

reformation
much has been said
i even studied it in history
although the popes are not so priestly
but they are still vicars of jesus
we must be very careful
of the sin of disobedience

we can conclude in a general view that martin luther disobeyed his superiors when he paste some papers on the wall.be careful here
remember lucifer was kicked out heaven because of pride and humanity's fall because of disdobedience. Lurther was right when he pointed out the errors but he did not obey the authority

Jesus also went against the laws by touching lepers but he conform to the authority by asking them to show themselves to the priest

luther can point the errors but should split out from the catholic church
he did 50% correct 50% wrong.

WE MUST LEARN TO CONFORM AND SUBMIT TO AUTHORITY like the army obeys the president, no further questions
shoot menat shoot,launch means launch no questioning

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 23, 2002

Well, unless some protestants can offer an explanation, it seems like Luther threw out the baby with the bath water. He was 100% correct to be angry at these five Popes, but where did he get the right to create a whole new religion?

seebs · Sep 23, 2002

I think the idea is that his reaction against what he saw as "bad Popes" was to believe that the doctrines they taught might be a result of corruption, not of God's actual teachings. So, he started trying to figure out what teachings come directly from God, and which were "teachings of man".

Now, we could debate for ages whether or not he did a good job, but I think that was clearly the *intent*.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 23, 2002

So if 5 popes are bad, the ones that declared doctrine are wrong? Was he, a PhD in theology, confusing the ideas of infallibility with impeccability?

seebs · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
So if 5 popes are bad, the ones that declared doctrine are wrong? Was he, a PhD in theology, confusing the ideas of infallibility with impeccability?

Hey, I didn't say I agreed entirely; I said I think that was the process that led to his conclusions. I think that concern over the behavior of Popes led him to try to check through the Bible for teachings that might or might not be correct in current doctrine.

There have been a number of cases where people have gradually or suddenly changed their opinions about what Scripture teaches. Sometimes, we think they were right.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 23, 2002

Im just asking, no attack intended.

I just don't get it. :scratch:

Nilhil Obstat · Sep 23, 2002

It's one of those things that a person has to come to on their own. I've had the same question myself, but asking it of Protestants doesn't do more than stir up feelings.

They have to come to it on their own.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 23, 2002

I just want to know if I am missing something here, not trying to cause trouble.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 23, 2002

Anyone?

Reformationist · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
Ok, it seems to me, from what I have read, that the reformation was created by three abuses of the Catholic Church :

1. Excess Wealth

2. Immoral Popes

3. Selling Indulgences

"...the five Vicars of Christ who ruled the Holy See during Magellan's lifetime [1480-1521] were the least Christian of men; the least devout, least scrupulous, least compassionate, and among the least chaste - lechers, almost without exception. Ruthless in their pursuit of political power and personal gain, they were medieval despots who used their holy office for blackmail and extortion."
- William Manchester (Manchester, p. 37)

What I don't understand, is how the Protestant theology came from, since the protests were against the above abuses of Church power. 

The core beliefs agreed upon by the various protestors became:

1. All mankind are unregenerate sinners - there is nothing that man can do on his own to achieve salvation
2. Sin is a massive gulf between God and humans - God sent his Son, Jesus, to redeem the sins of mankind
3. Through faith in Jesus, humans can become reconciled (justified) with God
4. Salvation for humans beings is through the Grace (unmerited favor) of God only - No one is worthy of salvation
5. Mankind is not saved through works - works are a result of justification, not a cause

How did the bad behavior of 5 popes create a new theology, given that the core Catholic beliefs never changed, despite the bad behavior of some Popes?

I'm a little curious how you came to the conclusion that the issues that were the cause of the reformation are limited to three you list at the top of this post.  Additionally, how do you come to the knowledge that reformatory actions weren't attempted within the church before the split was enacted?

God bless

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 24, 2002

From research I did. If you have other information, provide it, as I am only asking questions.

Greeter · Sep 24, 2002

They have to come to it on their own.

Come to what on our own? :scratch:

Well, unless some protestants can offer an explanation, it seems like Luther threw out the baby with the bath water. He was 100% correct to be angry at these five Popes, but where did he get the right to create a whole new religion?

Maybe he felt that the only solution was to take a new path.  There are many ways to view what happened back then.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 25, 2002

But that wasnt the only solution. The Church then reformed itself, in the Counter-Reformation.

niwde · Sep 25, 2002

it is very hard to be united again
like north and south korea.
one country must fall,only then there will be unity
another example, the union and the confederates
the south lost the war so name becomes united states of america again

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 25, 2002

niwde-

It will happen though, I believe. The Church will be united once again.

Reformationist · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
From research I did. If you have other information, provide it, as I am only asking questions.

Ooookaaay.  How's about you share the information and let's determine if it's an impartial witness.

Thanks,

God bless

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 25, 2002

Here is one:

http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/reform/reform.htm

Nilhil Obstat · Sep 25, 2002

Originally posted by Greeter
Come to what on our own?

Before I converted to Catholicism I basically floated around without an "official" church home. I was raised Methodist, tried Southern Baptist, went back to Methodist and then I married a Catholic.

What I discovered before I converted that I had to come to on my own was - why am I church hopping? Why am I unsatisfied with the churchs I had been a part of?

And I also wanted to get back to the original church Christ established. I've seen all the different churches and their different beliefs and I wanted one source that was accurate, that taught the same thing at a church in Chicago, San Diego, Italy, France, etc. You can go to any parish in any part of the world on Sunday and hear the same Mass, the same biblical readings and in some cases the same homily! That is huge in my eyes. Consistency is important to me.

That's just one aspect, but I had to come to that point on my own.  That is what I meant. You have to come to that conclusion on your own, us posting here is not going to encourage anyone, their going to get defensive.

Chris†opher Paul · Sep 25, 2002

I was raised Methodist as well, but felt nothing in the church. I felt God in a Catholic Church and it was in a Catholic Church that God spoke to me.

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