Are Trinitarians Christians?

Are Trinitarians Christians?

  • YES

  • NO


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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
This is in response to an earlier post about John 8:58.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Posts on this forum argue that when Jesus said “I Am”, in John 8:58, he was not identifying Himself as God.

That's TRUE. The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus was identifying himself as God. Jesus simply said that before Abraham was, "I AM" which could also MEAN that before Abraham was, "I AM the anointed."

Matthew 16:18 upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church that He built on the rock. Therefore, His church, and its teachings, should be visible in every generation, especially the years immediately following the apostles, i.e. 50-300 AD. There should be clear, substantial, evidence of His church in every age.

You got the meaning of the verse WRONG OldShepherd. 

What Jesus MEANT was that those who are INSIDE the church (those who BELIEVED Jesus and ENTERED - John 10:9 - the fold or church) may DIE yet they will LIVE again (John 11:25).

The church that Christ built BECAME inactive soon AFTER apostle Paul died. It was replaced by the Catholic Church which TAUGHT doctrines that were NOT taught by Jesus and his apostles.It was NOT until July 27, 1914, in FULFILLMENT of prophecy, that the TRUE Church of Christ (Iglesia Ni Cristo) RE-EMERGED at a place and time ACCORDING to scripture, that TRUE doctrines of Christ were TAUGHT again.

I challenge any anti-Trinitarian, on this forum, who viciously attacks the Trinity doctrine, to search the writings of the early church fathers, and learn if any of the early Christians ever taught the anti-Trinity doctrine you believe. In the first three centuries of the church many, many hundreds of faithful Christians were tortured and horribly killed by sword, spear, and arrow, wild animals, and even burned alive, because they would not denounce Jesus and worship the man Caesar, as deity. Did any of these early saints believe that Jesus was not God, that He was merely a man? Click (Here), to link to the writings of the early church fathers.

Which do you BELIEVE OldShepherd, the BIBLE or the WRITINGS of  what you call "early church Fathers?"  If these "early church writings" were of any value at all, why weren't they included in the  canonized Books of the Bible? After all, it was the Catholoc Church (composed of "early church Fathers") which, as you say, canonized the Bible. Have you thought about this?

Now, if you put MORE relevance to what your "early church Fathers" wrote OVER the canonized Bible, then we really DON'T have a COMMON ground, don't we? It would be like talking to a Mormon whose beliefs are based more on the Book of Mormon than  on the Bible or a Jehovah's Witness whose beliefs are said to be based on the Bible but actually based on interpretations as published in their WatchTower magazine.

The Plan of Salvation is God's and the Savior is Jesus. Why one would LISTEN to people OTHER than God or Jesus is beyond me!

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by LightBearer
By Edpobre Then why do you find it necessary to say that "Jehovah God <I>AS CREATOR</I> is called Father?"

Because the fact that Jesus is called "Eternal Father" does not make him "God Almighty" others such as the devil are also called father as well as "The Father"

You know what we are talking about my friend. Yes, there are many fathers but there is only one "Father of Spirits" (Heb. 12:9). The Devil is called "father of lies" and the Bible specifically teaches that (John 8:44).&nbsp; But it is NOT a fact that Jesus is called "eternal Father."&nbsp; You are MISREPRESENTING the TRUTH.

Originally posted by edpobre
If you go to my post again, you will notice that I said "SO-CALLED" spritually begotten Christians. Not everyone who say he is a DISCIPLE of Christ is TRUE disciple of Christ. Hence, NOT everyone who says he is "spiritually begotten" is a Christian.


So you are now saying that this statement is correct?
He is also the Father of spirit-begotten (Not supposedly ones) Christians, the Aramaic term ´Ab·ba´' being used as an expression of respect and of close filial relationship. (Ro 8:15.)


Are you referring to Jesus as the "Father of spiritually-begotten Christians?"

Originally posted by edpobre
Are we not talking about a specific verse and NOT the whole Bible? We do NOT have our own translation of the Bible like what the JWs did. We are not saying that the SmithGoodspeed Translation is the best. We are only saying that as far as Isaiah 9:6 is concerned, the Smith-Goodspeed Translation is ACCURATE while others are NOT.


Why do you leave the weight of all other translations on this point and rely on a single rendering. It goes against all reason. Surely if a rendering is an error it would lay with the single translation and not the vast majority including all the scholarly modern translations.

Please would you quote in full from Goodspeeds translation these verses. Isaiah 9:5-7. Much appreciated.


A single translation in the face of thousands is ACCURATE if it CONFORMS with KNOWN and ACCEPTED truths. The majority translations of Isaiah 9:6 are NOT accurate because they CONTRADICT the TRUTH that NO MAN can be called "Father" (meaning Father of Spirits) as COMMANDED by our Lord and Savior. These translations ALSO go AGAINST Jesus' teaching that the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 8:40).

I do NOT need to quote Isaiah 9:5 and 7 because they do NOT have any bearing on the accuracy of Isaiah 9:6 of the Smith-Goodspeed Translation.

Originally posted by edpobre
Are you saying that what Jesus said in Matt. 23:9 is FALSE?

Absolutely not. Can you show me in any of my posts where I said we should call Jesus Father. I said he was prophecitcaly refered as "Eternal Father" because he was going to give life to certain individuals and so it would become one of his titles. He has many, although I still refer to him as Jesus or Christ.

I didn't realize that JWs CAN lie if confronted with the TRUTH. Isn't it true that JWs teach that Jesus is "everlasting Father?"

Earlier you wrote:
Because the fact that Jesus is called "Eternal Father" does not make him "God Almighty" others such as the devil are also called father as well as "The Father"

Aren't you in effect saying that "for a FACT" Jesus is "eternal Father?"

Romans 6:22-23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord". On what basis does God give life everlasting except to those who come under the redeeming value of Christ’s sacrificial death through his shed blood? 1 Corinthians 15:44-45 “It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit”. Life giving to who?

Ed’s answer
We call Jesus our Lord and SAVIOR - not Lord and Father. That's what the apostles TAUGHT and did.

I have never suggested that we should refer to Jesus as Father. You are to quick to jump down peoples throats and assume they are saying things they are not. Calm down.

What&nbsp;irks me&nbsp;is when people who PRETEND to have exclusivity to the TRUTH become LIARS when confronted with the truth.&nbsp;&nbsp;Look at your post again and tell me if you aren't REALLY suggesting that Jesus is referred to as "Eternal Father."

You didn’t answer the question. Life giving to who? And is this scripture correct that Jesus is a Life giving SPIRIT?

Does this mean that Jesus is LITERALLY a "life-giving spirit?" Certainly not! Jesus calls himself the "bread of life." He also calls himself the "water of life." Is Jesus LITERALLY bread and water? Do you agree with Catholics that the bread they eat is LITERALLY Christ's body?

By Edpobre
I go by what the Bible teaches. Jesus is a MAN who was appointed to judge the world (Acts 17:31). Jesus is a MAN who IS the MEDIATOR between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). Jesus will be SEEN when he comes again (Matt. 24:30).

Just because he is referred to as a man does not mean Jesus has to be flesh and blood. The Angel Gabriel’s name means “Able bodied MAN of God”. Is the Angel Gabriel a man or a spirit?

Now here comes that standard "symbolic" defense of JWs. Now you are saying that Jesus is a "symbolic" man. Jesus is NOT only referred to as MAN. He SAID it himself (John 8:40) . And the apostles TAUGHT it&nbsp;(Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

Jesus himself SAID that he is FLESH and BONES (Luke 24:39). God Himself SAID that MAN is FLESH (Genesis 6:3).

I am NOT concerned about the angel Gabriel. He is a MESSENGER (angel) of God and God can make Gabriel anyway He wants to accomplish the purpose for which he is SENT. If the Bible says Gabriel is a MAN, so be it. And if at the next instance, the Bible says he is a spirit, I'll accept that too.

But this does NOT affect my belief in what Jesus says about himself.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Phoenix
For a link to the organization ( cult ) to which Ed belongs click here:

http://www.letusreason.org/Iglesia5.htm

What are you afraid of Phoenix? Why do you hide behind this link? I suggest you copy and paste what they say about the Iglesia Ni Cristo and let's discuss it here in the open.

Ed
 
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Messenger

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Originally posted by edpobre....words are in Black

Messengers words are in Indigo.

Nobody is forcing you to post here Messenger. If you find this NONSENSE, stay out of it. But if you decide to stay, please keep your voice down.
I like my voice and I like my colors...what something looks like doesn't matter the context is what matters...I would like for everyone to write a little bigger and a little brighter but that's not my mission.&nbsp; Sorry that it offends you and others but you are reading to much into the colors and front. As far as being NONSENSE that is why I come here to try and end some of the NONSENSE and help others to understand one another a little better.


Everyone is free to say what&nbsp;one wants as long as&nbsp;one can prove it with scripture. That's what this forum is all about.&nbsp;&nbsp;I understand that "Christians" base their belief on the word of God and the word of God is the Bible. Salvation is by the grace of God and Jesus is the Savior. It is only wise that we ABIDE by what God and Jesus say, NOT on what a council of men says.
Christians accept Jesus and try and walk beside him. We can learn from one another. If the trinitarian believes what the council of men say is supported by the Bible and it becomes their belief the worst they are is ignorant not non-Christian. If they choose to believe the council of men so they are accepted into the group then they may be worshiping men instead of God...but can we see there motives without seeing into their hearts?&nbsp; God is the judge.


You're WRONG Messenger. God has already DECIDED who is a Christian and who is not. The DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Thus, only DISCIPLES of Christ are CHRISTIANS. But who is a DISCIPLE of Christ. Again, God speaks. A DISCIPLE is one who BELIEVES in Jesus and ABIDES in his word (John 8:31).
Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). A DISCIPLE is one who BELIEVES in Jesus and ABIDES&nbsp; in these doctrines.

And I believe many trinitarians do believe in Jesus and live a God pleasing life. We are all ignorant who is less ignorant ...does it matter? As long as we love God and love one another and accept Jesus and listen to the Holy Spirit within our heart read the Bible and pray. What is the Father? We see the Father through the Son. What is the Holy Spirit that is the voice in our heart that is from God. Jesus is from God right? The Holy Spirit is from God right? God is from what? God is what we can't explain it is impossible to comprehend and thus came the trinity doctrines. The doctrines are right in part. Jesus and God and &nbsp;are one in one purpose one grand plan working together. God is above all there is only one God God the Father. But the Bible says God raised Jesus above. When you pray for Jesus to come into your heart do you pray to God or Jesus? Trinitarians BELIEVE and TEACH that Jesus is God IN ADDITION to being a MAN. This is a violation of God's COMMAND not to ADD to His word (Deut. 2:32). This is also OPPOSED to what Jesus TAUGHT. Apostle John wrote that anyone who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ DOES NOT have God (1 John 1:9).&nbsp; Thus, according to the word of God, Trinitarians do NOT have God!
Jesus is God in a spiritual sence. Jesus had the spirit of God and the Spirit is the truth. If we have the Spirit we have the truth. If we walk&nbsp;in Christ we are Christians. God is Love We must love. I read all of 1John 1 and don't see your point of trinitarians not being Christians.

1John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Jesus never drove cars and probably never had cotton candy...so maybe we shouldn't either???

Jesus didn't pray through himself he prayed directly to God but we can know God through Jesus because he lived his life God-like. I am not a Trinitarian but I understand their veiw and don't believe it to be Anti-Christian or Non-Christian...We don't have to have all the answers to be Christian we have to have LOVE!:)
Am I saying this because I hate Trinitarians? No. I'm doing this in COMPLIANCE with God's COMMAND to "save others by pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 1:23).
If that is what you believe you are doing good. But maybe it would help if you listened as well and understand they are not totally wrong and if they are walking in Christ they are Christians.
Let me ask you Messenger. If you see your neighbor on his bike going 60 miles per hour down a road toward a river where the bridge used to be there, wouldn't you try to stop him from plunging right into the river?&nbsp;
I'd give my neighbor the knowledge I had and hope that he'd stop.
Isn't that what LOVE is all about?
Gen. 20:13&nbsp; This is how you can show your love to me: Everywhere we go, say of me, "He is my brother."&nbsp; On the cross Jesus prayed Father forgive them they know not what they do. So praying for others and sharing your knowledge with others would be good but to accuse them of not being Christians...I don't see any love in that.


&nbsp;
 
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LightBearer

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Ed:&nbsp; You really need to check your tone,&nbsp; calling people liars and deceivers and&nbsp;loosing&nbsp;your selfcontrol will not help.&nbsp; Try and be peacable with all men. Rom 12:18&nbsp;

Then just quote Isaiah 9:6 in full please from Goodspeeds. In full, save me looking for an online translation.&nbsp; Thank you.
 
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Messenger

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2 more cents either your for God or your against God. God wants us to bring His Children together. Ed to belong to an organization which trys and prove that trinitarians are not Christians just goes further into separating God's Children. Others to say non-trinitarians aren't Christians is the same. God is Love. Jesus didn't run around name calling and saying he was better than another. Jesus was Humble.&nbsp; If we accept Jesus is the Son of God than our Spirit is true....If we say Jesus is God are we doomed...Show me the Scripture...you can't. We are to have no&nbsp;other God's but Jesus and God are&nbsp;one in Spirit.&nbsp;&nbsp; I think time could be better spent leading the lost to Christ rather than leading the confussed to your state of confussion.

sorry a little more than 2 cents but who's counting? :) Love and God Bless.
 
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Phoenix

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Originally posted by edpobre
Originally posted by Phoenix


What are you afraid of Phoenix? Why do you hide behind this link? I suggest you copy and paste what they say about the Iglesia Ni Cristo and let's discuss it here in the open.

Ed

Very well Ed,

Lets start here:

The pamphlet ends with this note Dear reader, it is, therefore, Gods command that we all should enter the church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo , in Philippine, if we want to enter the kingdom of heaven to enjoy eternal life."

What of the apostles did they enter this church, was there even a church in ancient times in the Philippines? Obviously not.

In the same pamphlet it says "To be certain of salvation, every member of the church of Christ must obey the doctrines he heard and received all the days of his life, "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life" (Prov.6:23) Obey always is commendable but hardly realistic.
<P align=justify>INC teaches that membership in their organization plus complete submission to the Executive Minister and the rest of the Church administration is the only way to be saved:
<P align=justify>"Each member ... should submit himself to the Administration of the Church in order to be saved."(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 9)

The following quotes confirm the INC requirement of total submission by all members.

"Unity in the Iglesia Ni Cristo ... transcends and encompasses all aspects of the life of an Iglesia Ni Cristo......(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 5)

"For opposing the Administration of the Church is tantamount to opposing not only Christ but also God."(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 190

"So we should therefore demonstrate complete submission, obedience and loyalty to the Administration..." (PASUGO, January 1976, p.1
 
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TScott

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edpobre,

&nbsp;

You wrote:

If you don't like your posts to be commented upon, don't post, period. Don't expect your FALSE beliefs to be taken, hook, line and sinker.

First of all, I never said that I don't like my posts commented on.&nbsp; I simply said that you have no authority to determine if my beliefs or anyone elses beliefs are true or false.&nbsp; You don't.&nbsp; If you want to say that it is your opinion that my beliefs are false I would have no problem with it.


As far as anyone taking my beliefs, hook line and sinker, as you say, I have not asked anyone to do so.&nbsp;

Incidently, it is quite obvious you haven't a clue as to what my beliefs are and yet you make such speciuous comments.&nbsp; That is kind of puzzling, don't you think?&nbsp; I actually disagree with the Trinitarian claims, and have said so many times on these boards.&nbsp;


I find it humorous how you demand everyone give you scriptural evidence and then when they do you invariably dismiss it.
 
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Phoenix

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"No, it is beyond man's power and intelligence to study and understand the truth, which is God's word (John 17:17), by himself, without the guidance of God's messenger." (PASUGO, November 1973, p. 19, 20).

According to the info in the link Ed, only authorized ministers from your church can interpret scripture for you .. is this true ? and if so why
 
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Phoenix

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Iglesia argues that in this verse Isaiah is referring to the "far east" and that this is the place where the "Church of Christ" will emerge in the last days. This point is constantly repeated in Iglesia literature: "The prophecy stated that God's children shall come from the far east" (Pasugo, March 1975, p.6).

Could you please point me to the specific verses Ed ? I would like to read them and test the Spirits as i am taught.


edit-forgot to paste the verse. :o
 
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Originally posted by OldShepherd
Kain,

OK. Let’s review all the verses that you posted before and see if they are relevant or irrelevant. That is do any of these verses somehow prove that Isa 44:6, is not, cannot be, speaking about a Trinitarian God.


6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.

Let me clarify what I mean by Trinitarian God. I do not mean the mongrelized, illegitimatized three god, horse droppings, that virtually all anti-Trinitarians drag out every time they talk about Trinity, as Kain did in his previous post. If you are here attacking the Trinity and you don’t know what you are attacking, then go look it up and I’ll discuss the truth with you when you come back. Start with the assumption that Trinitarians believe in ONE God!


Let me straighten it out. You can make any claim you like about three in one or one in three. The basic facts are the same. You believe in the deity of Christ, the deity of the Holy Spirit and the deity of the Father. Count all the deities and you end up with three. Three deities, three gods. No matter how you put that into a neat package, it remains the same.

First, who is the audience in Is 44:6? Israel and Jacob. This is direct address, I-you, see verses before and after 44:6, vss. 2 and 7, “ye” and “thee”, not “him” or “his”.

In verse 6, YHWH still addressing Israel/Jacob directly, we would expect YHWH to say “your redeemer”, first person, but He says “his redeemer” (&#1493;&#1490;&#1488;&#1500;&#1493;), third person.


Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.* * *
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses.

Isa 47:4 As for our redeemer, (&#1490;&#1488;&#1500;&#1504;&#1493;) the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

As you noted elsewhere “ga’alnu” is correctly translated “our redeemer”, because “ga’al” has the 1mp pronominal suffix, (&#1504;&#1493;) “nu”, “of us”, whereas in Is 44:6, “ga’al” has the 3ms pronominal suffix “waw” (&#1493;), “of him”, his.

I can affirm this verse, “our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.”. There is absolutely nothing in this verse which even hints, and certainly doesn’t prove, that YHWH is not or cannot be Triune in nature.

You misunderstand my descriptions. Your main argument is that all those verses don't show that YHWH isn't triune in nature. You made a nice effort, but alas, that wasn't what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that the verse doesn't show that YHWH is triune in nature. The whole bible put together in context shows that YHWH has told us he is one, not two or three or whatever.

If YHVH is triune in nature, then I would expect the triune nature to be used constantly and if not constantly, very often. But it isn't. All you have are some scattered verses that show something else, but twisted to support a triune-god.

See previous response. This is a copout not a rebuttal. I accept sources which are legitimate, recognized, and not contradictory. Except for this little snide flatulence, you have ignored JPS and LXX twice. Therefore we can assume you do not have a meaningful response.

Not ignored, but refuted you interpretation of it. Those verses don't show that God is triune.

While you are pondering all this, here are more verses, from the T’nakh, which support the Trinitarian view.

The strange 'us' passages in Gen 1.26, 3:22, 11.7; Is 6.8.
  • Gen 1.26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
  • Gen 3.22: And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us,
  • Gen 11.7: Come, let us go down and confuse their language
    ]
  • Is 6.8: Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

More misinterpretations. You will notice that Gen 1.26, the rest of creation is made before God starts talking using 'us' etc. Elohim here is addressing the Celestial Host, the Cherubeem, and in the last case, Isaiah as well.

The glaring fact remains. If God was indeed triune, you would expect this kind of language constantly.

Did YHWH consult the angels, as some Talmudist write? Did YHWH consult all of His creation, as other Talmudists write? Or maybe this is the perennial favorite, the “plural of majesty”, which, oh BTW, did not exist in Israelite culture or any ancient near east culture with which Israel had contact.

But you already know the answer, you just choose to reject it.

More Comments on the Trinity foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

More interpretations if your specifically looking for a trinity. But you can't find one verse that God actually calims to be a trinity.
 
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Just a couple of verses in my closing remarks here! P/N/B/

"We are of God: he that [knowest God, heareth us]; he that [is not of God,
heareth not us]. Hereby [know we the Spirit of truth, and the 's'pirit of error]." 1 John 4:6

REGARDLESS of which one 'i' am, this settles it for me, for now at least. If 'others' are surrendered to the [will of the Master], lets hear from you on subjects that are not a hobby horse VAIN doctrine? This is the way the Master's Word handels it:

"But [avoid] foolish questions, and [genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law;] for they are [unprofitable and VAIN]. A man that [is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject]. Knowing that he [is that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself]".
Titus 3:9-10 in part & emphasis----P/N/B/
 
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Auntie

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I have noticed a lot of name calling and personal attacks going on in this thread. If I see any more of that sort of thing, I will close this thread down.

I am advising each member who has called another member "LIAR", or other such inflammatory attacks, to GO BACK AND EDIT OUT YOUR OWN POSTS. This board does not allow members to belittle other members with such inflammatory language.



Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
 
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Sean R. Sherman

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I agree with Phoenix. (1 john 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
It is the holy spirit That gives revelation of scripture not man's understanding. (Prov 14:12) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Prov 16:25)There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. I follow not man written Doctrine but the doctrine of the inspired ones that fortell of our own revelation of the Divinity of Christ. Can Christ be divided? A perefect ritorical question asked by a strict follower of Christ, Paul. The answer is NO christ cannot be divided. He can only do what he sees the Father do. Because the Flesh of Jesus can only do what the spirit of God in him, wills him to do. To be carnaly minded is Death but to be spiritually minded is Life and peace so open thine eyes to the Spiritual world for what you see through the Spirit is more true. Because We earlly see through a glass darkly. And so it is by the Holy Spirit that ALL things are taught and not by a man's own understanding of which he declares that even he doesn't understand, such as the trinity.
 
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I am a defender of the faith and I have this bad habit of exposing false teachings and doctrines that have absolutely nothing to do with scripture, so let me throw in my 2 quarters for what it might be worth.

Well, Im glad we have you to correct all of the experts that spend their lives on the subject of scripture interpretations.

:rolleyes:
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Messenger
Originally posted by edpobre....words are in Black

Messengers words are in Indigo.

Nobody is forcing you to post here Messenger. If you find this NONSENSE, stay out of it. But if you decide to stay, please keep your voice down.

I like my voice and I like my colors...what something looks like doesn't matter the context is what matters...I would like for everyone to write a little bigger and a little brighter but that's not my mission.&nbsp; Sorry that it offends you and others but you are reading to much into the colors and front. As far as being NONSENSE that is why I come here to try and end some of the NONSENSE and help others to understand one another a little better.

If that's what you like so be it. It does not bother me one bit.&nbsp;Okay, so you like to this NONSENSE afterall. But I warn you, this forum is NOT for onion-skinned people.There is a saying, "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!"

Everyone is free to say what&nbsp;one wants as long as&nbsp;one can prove it with scripture. That's what this forum is all about.&nbsp;&nbsp;I understand that "Christians" base their belief on the word of God and the word of God is the Bible. Salvation is by the grace of God and Jesus is the Savior. It is only wise that we ABIDE by what God and Jesus say, NOT on what a council of men says.

Christians accept Jesus and try and walk beside him. We can learn from one another. If the trinitarian believes what the council of men say is supported by the Bible and it becomes their belief the worst they are is ignorant not non-Christian. If they choose to believe the council of men so they are accepted into the group then they may be worshiping men instead of God...but can we see there motives without seeing into their hearts?&nbsp; God is the judge.

You're WRONG Messenger. God has already DECIDED who is a Christian and who is not. The DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Thus, only DISCIPLES of Christ are CHRISTIANS. But who is a DISCIPLE of Christ. Again, God speaks. A DISCIPLE is one who BELIEVES in Jesus and ABIDES in his word (John 8:31).

Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). A DISCIPLE is one who BELIEVES in Jesus and ABIDES&nbsp; in these doctrines.

And I believe many trinitarians do believe in Jesus and live a God pleasing life. We are all ignorant who is less ignorant ...does it matter? As long as we love God and love one another and accept Jesus and listen to the Holy Spirit within our heart read the Bible and pray. What is the Father? We see the Father through the Son. What is the Holy Spirit that is the voice in our heart that is from God. Jesus is from God right? The Holy Spirit is from God right? God is from what? God is what we can't explain it is impossible to comprehend and thus came the trinity doctrines. The doctrines are right in part. Jesus and God and &nbsp;are one in one purpose one grand plan working together. God is above all there is only one God God the Father. But the Bible says God raised Jesus above. When you pray for Jesus to come into your heart do you pray to God or Jesus?

You still don't get it Messenger. What you are saying is FALSE. Believing Jesus is NOT enough and living a God pleasing life does NOT prove that one is a CHRISTIAN. Jesus SAID: "But why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord' and do NOT do the things I say" (Luke 6:46)?

A CHRISTIAN is one who BELIEVES Jesus and OBEYS his teaching. Trinitarians do NOT obey Jeus' teaching regarding himself and regarding the ONLY true God. They simply are NOT Christians. God EXHORTS Trinitarians to "come out of her, lest they share in her sins and receive of her plagues (Rev. 18:4).

Trinitarians BELIEVE and TEACH that Jesus is God IN ADDITION to being a MAN. This is a violation of God's COMMAND not to ADD to His word (Deut. 2:32). This is also OPPOSED to what Jesus TAUGHT. Apostle John wrote that anyone who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ DOES NOT have God (2 John 1:9).&nbsp; Thus, according to the word of God, Trinitarians do NOT have God!

Jesus is God in a spiritual sence. Jesus had the spirit of God and the Spirit is the truth. If we have the Spirit we have the truth. If we walk&nbsp;in Christ we are Christians. God is Love We must love. I read all of 1John 1 and don't see your point of trinitarians not being Christians.

As I said earlier, "walking in Christ" does NOT make one a CHRISTIAN. To LOVE the children of God is to LOVE God. And to LOVE God is to KEEP His commandments (1 John 5:2-3). God COMMANDS people to LISTEN to His Son (Matt. 17:5).&nbsp;If you LOVE God, you MUST obey this COMMAND. And if you OBEYED this command, you wouldn't even THINK that Jesus is God!. Re Trinitarians NOT having God, I stand corrected. It should have been 2 John 1:9.&nbsp;

Am I saying this because I hate Trinitarians? No. I'm doing this in COMPLIANCE with God's COMMAND to "save others by pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 1:23).

If that is what you believe you are doing good. But maybe it would help if you listened as well and understand they are not totally wrong and if they are walking in Christ they are Christians.

Again I say, "walking in Christ" does NOT make one a Christian. This is NOT in the Bible. Chriustians are DISCIPLES of Christ (Acts 11:26). And DISCIPLES of Christ BELIEVE in Jesus and ABIDE in his word (John 8:31). I cannot compromise what God says. Trinitrarians do NOT abide in the&nbsp;teaching of Christ. They are NOT disciples of Christ. They are NOT Christians.&nbsp;

Let me ask you Messenger. If you see your neighbor on his bike going 60 miles per hour down a road toward a river where the bridge used to be there, wouldn't you try to stop him from plunging right into the river?
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I'd give my neighbor the knowledge I had and hope that he'd stop.

Isn't that what LOVE is all about?

Gen. 20:13&nbsp; This is how you can show your love to me: Everywhere we go, say of me, "He is my brother."&nbsp; On the cross Jesus prayed Father forgive them they know not what they do. So praying for others and sharing your knowledge with others would be good but to accuse them of not being Christians...I don't see any love in that.

What you are saying is NOT supported by the Bible. That's&nbsp;how&nbsp; the "natural man" understands what LOVE means. To LOVE a brother is to LOVE God. And to LOVE God is to KJEEP His commandments (1 John 5:2-3).

God COMMANDS His children to&nbsp;SAVE people by "pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 1:23). Opening people's eyes to the FALSEHOOD of the Trinity is one way of saving people from eternal&nbsp;destruction.
Ed
 
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