Scripture Manipulation...

djconklin · Jul 1, 2007

If I remember correctly, this was only in circumstances when they couldn't get to the Temple.--i.e., very rare occasions, not every Friday nite binges.

Sophia7 · Jul 1, 2007

djconklin said:
If I remember correctly, this was only in circumstances when they couldn't get to the Temple.--i.e., very rare occasions, not every Friday nite binges.

The text says that it was a tithe of the yearly crops. However, it doesn't matter how often it was done if your assertion is that consumption of all alcoholic beverages was forbidden by God. In that case, drinking on rare occasions, even without drunkenness, would have been just as sinful as indulging in weekly Friday-night binges. Here we have God explicitly telling people to buy and enjoy fermented drink, though.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

DT 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

Which translation is this? There is no "fermented drink" in the KJV.

JonMiller · Jul 2, 2007

Yaeh, everyone knows that KJV was mistranslated.

JM

RC_NewProtestants · Jul 2, 2007

djconklin said:
[/COLOR]

Which translation is this? There is no "fermented drink" in the KJV.

DJ you might want to try some self editing before you post. Go back and read what was said and then decide if your post is appropriate.
What do you think strong drink means...wait don't answer that, make that was does the term strong drink mean in the history of literature?

[SIZE=-0][SIZE=-0]Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, {desireth: Heb. asketh of thee} KJV[/SIZE][/SIZE]

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

DJ you might want to try some self editing before you post. Go back and read what was said and then decide if your post is appropriate.

Before lecturing others you you should edit your own posts first. I said there is no "fermented drink" (note the quote martks, not just the words) in the KJV. I was right.

Now, on "strong drink" there are 45 hits in 20 verses (the Hebrew won't show up so I used the LXX; look for
sikera (sikera)):

KJV Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

BGT Leviticus 10:9

oi=non kai. sikera ouv pi,esqe su. kai. oi` ui`oi, sou meta. sou/ h`ni,ka a'n eivsporeu,hsqe eivj th.n skhnh.n tou/ marturi,ou h' prosporeuome,nwn u`mw/n pro.j to. qusiasth,rion kai. ouv mh. avpoqa,nhte no,mimon aivw,nion eivj ta.j genea.j u`mw/n

KJV Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
BGT Numbers 6:3avpo. oi;nou kai. sikera a`gnisqh,setai avpo. oi;nou kai. o;xoj evx oi;nou kai. o;xoj evk sikera ouv pi,etai kai. o[sa katerga,zetai evk stafulh/j ouv pi,etai kai. stafulh.n pro,sfaton kai. stafi,da ouv fa,getai

KJV Numbers 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
BGT Numbers 28:7kai. spondh.n auvtou/ to. te,tarton tou/ in tw/| avmnw/| tw/| e`ni, evn tw/| a`gi,w| spei,seij spondh.n sikera kuri,w|

KJV Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
BGT Deuteronomy 14:26kai. dw,seij to. avrgu,rion evpi. panto,j ou- eva.n evpiqumh/| h` yuch, sou evpi. bousi. h' evpi. proba,toij evpi. oi;nw| h' evpi. sikera h' evpi. panto,j ou- eva.n evpiqumh/| h` yuch, sou kai. fa,gh| evkei/ evnanti,on kuri,ou tou/ qeou/ sou kai. euvfranqh,sh| su. kai. o` oi=ko,j sou

KJV Deuteronomy 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
BGT Deuteronomy 29:5
a;rton ouvk evfa,gete oi=non kai. sikera ouvk evpi,ete i[na gnw/te o[ti ou-toj ku,rioj o` qeo.j u`mw/n

KJV Judges 13:4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
BGT Judges (A) 13:4kai. nu/n fu,laxai kai. mh. pi,h|j oi=non kai. sikera kai. mh. fa,gh|j pa/n avka,qarton

KJV Judges 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
BGT Judges (A) 13:7kai. ei=pe,n moi ivdou. su. evn gastri. e[xeij kai. te,xh| ui`o,n kai. nu/n mh. pi,h|j oi=non kai. sikera kai. mh. fa,gh|j pa/san avkaqarsi,an o[ti nazirai/on qeou/ e;stai to. paida,rion avpo. th/j gastro.j e[wj h`me,raj qana,tou auvtou/

KJV Judges 13:14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.
BGT Judges (A) 13:14avpo. pa,ntwn o[sa evkporeu,etai evx avmpe,lou ouv fa,getai kai. oi=non kai. sikera mh. pie,tw kai. pa/n avka,qarton mh. fage,tw pa,nta o[sa evneteila,mhn auvth/| fulaxa,sqw

KJV 1 Samuel 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
BGT 1 Samuel 1:15
kai. avpekri,qh Anna kai. ei=pen ouvci, ku,rie gunh, h-| sklhra. h`me,ra evgw, eivmi kai. oi=non kai. me,qusma ouv pe,pwka kai. evkce,w th.n yuch,n mou evnw,pion kuri,ou

KJV Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

BGT Proverbs 20:1avko,laston oi=noj kai. u`bristiko.n me,qh pa/j de. o` summeignu,menoj auvth/| ouvk e;stai sofo,j

KJV Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

BGT Proverbs 31:4

meta. boulh/j pa,nta poi,ei meta. boulh/j oivnopo,tei oi` duna,stai qumw,deij eivsi,n oi=non de. mh. pine,twsan

KJV Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. (they didn't have the pain-killers like we do today.)

BGT Proverbs 31:6
di,dote me,qhn toi/j evn lu,paij kai. oi=non pi,nein toi/j evn ovdu,naij

(here the Greek word is me,qhn;)

KJV Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
BGT Isaiah 5:11
ouvai. oi` evgeiro,menoi to. prwi. kai. to. sikera diw,kontej oi` me,nontej to. ovye, o` ga.r oi=noj auvtou.j sugkau,sei

KJV Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
BGT Isaiah 5:22
ouvai. oi` ivscu,ontej u`mw/n oi` to.n oi=non pi,nontej kai. oi` duna,stai oi` kerannu,ntej to. sikera

KJV Isaiah 24:9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
BGT Isaiah 24:9
hv|scu,nqhsan ouvk e;pion oi=non pikro.n evge,neto to. sikera toi/j pi,nousin

KJV Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
BGT Isaiah 28:7
ou-toi ga.r oi;nw| peplanhme,noi eivsi,n evplanh,qhsan dia. to. sikera i`ereu.j kai. profh,thj evxe,sthsan dia. to.n oi=non evsei,sqhsan avpo. th/j me,qhj tou/ sikera evplanh,qhsan tou/tV e;sti fa,sma

KJV Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
BGT Isaiah 29:9
evklu,qhte kai. e;ksthte kai. kraipalh,sate ouvk avpo. sikera ouvde. avpo. oi;nou

KJV Isaiah 56:12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

(not in the LXX)

KJV Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.
BGT Micah 2:11
katediw,cqhte ouvdeno.j diw,kontoj pneu/ma e;sthsen yeu/doj evsta,laxe,n soi eivj oi=non kai. me,qusma kai. e;stai evk th/j stago,noj tou/ laou/ tou,tou

KJV Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
BGT Luke 1:15
e;stai ga.r me,gaj evnw,pion Îtou/Ð kuri,ou( kai. oi=non kai. si,kera ouv mh. pi,h|( kai. pneu,matoj a`gi,ou plhsqh,setai e;ti evk koili,aj mhtro.j auvtou/(

Note that none of these verses even implies that it is porper to engage in the regular consumption of "strong drink" (probably had even less alcohol content than beer) on a regular basis. In fact, some even condemn it. The weight of the evidence shows that one is not to drink "strong drink." One is not to build a case on an anomaly (single verse). This is especially true when one digs even just a little bit and finds out that one is dead wrong!

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

Yaeh, everyone knows that KJV was mistranslated.

While there are places where it is mistranslated; this is not the norm.

JonMiller · Jul 2, 2007

Sorry, I thought you might be one of those who thinks that KJV is God's translation, and anything else isn't right.

I personally prefer the RSV, what do you think about that one?

JM

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, {desireth: Heb. asketh of thee} KJV

Dr. Bacchiocchi deals with this passage in his book Wine in the Bible (1989!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!): pages 225-234. He states that "shekar" (the Hebrew word) refers to a date beverage, not beer (he cites one of the scholars who worked on the NIV, the ISBE, Cheyne and Black's Encyclopedia Biblica). The English words "sugar" and "cider" are derived from the Hebrew word "shekar." This tells you that the word does not refer to an alcoholic beverage, but to a sugary drink.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

Sorry, I thought you might be one of those who thinks that KJV is God's translation, and anything else isn't right.

See what happens when you assume?

The KJV just happens to be more literal and less interpretative than other versions (like the NIV).

I personally prefer the RSV, what do you think about that one?

I don't "prefer" any particular version.

Once, when learning how to translate Greek I ran into a verse that I just couldn't make sense out of. So, I checked about a dozen translations--all of them were different. I thought "Ah ha, you guys don't know either!"

JonMiller · Jul 2, 2007

On these issues of Hebrew... can't we ask a Jew?

JM

Sophia7 · Jul 2, 2007

djconklin said:
Dr. Bacchiocchi deals with this passage in his book Wine in the Bible (1989!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!): pages 225-234. He states that "shekar" (the Hebrew word) refers to a date beverage, not beer (he cites one of the scholars who worked on the NIV, the ISBE, Cheyne and Black's Encyclopedia Biblica). The English words "sugar" and "cider" are derived from the Hebrew word "shekar." This tells you that the word does not refer to an alcoholic beverage, but to a sugary drink.

Check this out for your tithing needs:
http://scorpius.spaceports.com/~goodwine/datewine.htm

The English term cider in most countries other than the United States refers to an alcoholic beverage. This doesn't support your assertion that the Hebrew word shekar refers to a non-alcoholic drink.

Gill's commentary on Deut. 14:26 says this in regard to "strong drink":

or for wine, or for strong drink; to drink with his food, whether wine or any other liquor; the Targum of Jonathan is, wine new or old, which he chose; but the latter, strong drink, Aben Ezra says, was a liquor made of honey and of dates, of wheat and of barley:

Sophia7 · Jul 2, 2007

Here are the other OT texts that use the Hebrew term shekar (KJV):

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Nu 6:3 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Nu 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Deut 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Jud 13:4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Jud 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Jud 13:14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]1 Sa 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Ps 69:12 They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of the drunkards.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them![/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Isa 24:9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Isa 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Isa 56:12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Mic 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]These don't provide much of a case for the claim that shekar does not mean alcoholic drink.

[/FONT]

djconklin said:
Note that none of these verses even implies that it is porper [sic] to engage in the regular consumption of "strong drink" (probably had even less alcohol content than beer) on a regular basis. In fact, some even condemn it. The weight of the evidence shows that one is not to drink "strong drink." One is not to build a case on an anomaly (single verse). This is especially true when one digs even just a little bit and finds out that one is dead wrong!

The weight of the evidence shows that one is not to get drunk on strong drink and that certain people were completely prohibited from indulging in it. One should not build a case on what one believes is the meaning of a Hebrew word in a single verse (Deut. 14:26) without considering its usage in the rest of the OT.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

On these issues of Hebrew... can't we ask a Jew?

Hebrew - English lexicons were created based on reading Hebrew and comparing the same text with other translations of the same text -- think Rosetta stone. I have never heard of any Jew making an informed complaint about any of the lexicons. Now translations is another story altogether. Even expert translations are subject to the translator's biases and sometimes they show up.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

Here are the other OT texts that use the Hebrew term shekar (KJV):

I have already given them (over 2 hours before your post) in post 106.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

Check this out for your tithing needs:
[URL]http://scorpius.spaceports.com/~goodwine/datewine.htm[/URL]

1) The biblical rule of Deuteronomy doesn't apply anymore as we can readily make it to church more than once a year.
2) Nice recipe. It doesn't indicate how "loaded" one can get from it. See 3 differnt Dandelion wine recipes at http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/dandelio.asp another 30 recipes here: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/dandelion.asp
3) This assumes that the date wine that was made in Deuteronomy was allowed to ferment vs. being made just for the occasion on the spot.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

The English term cider in most countries other than the United States refers to an alcoholic beverage. This doesn't support your assertion that the Hebrew word shekar refers to a non-alcoholic drink.

1) I referred to "sugar" and "cider"--not just one.
2) Since we live in the US it really isn't relevant what they say the English word means.
3) Given the above two facts, "my" assertion stands, because it is not mine, but fact.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

Gill's commentary on Deut. 14:26 says this in regard to "strong drink":
or for wine, or for strong drink; to drink with his food, whether wine or any other liquor; the Targum of Jonathan is, wine new or old, which he chose; but the latter, strong drink, Aben Ezra says, was a liquor made of honey and of dates, of wheat and of barley:

John Gill died in 1771; our knowledge of things has advanced more than a tad since then.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

These don't provide much of a case for the claim that shekar does not mean alcoholic drink.

That is because you are going by an English translation. Read Dr. Bacchiocchi's book Wine in the Bible, pages 225-34. On page 227 he notes that Robert Teachout found that whenever you see "wine" (yayin) and "strong drink" (shekar) together, they constitute a henidays--expressing the same thing in different words. In this case, it means "satisfying date (or honey) drink." On page 228, Teachout notes also that this is to be drunk "before the Lord"--this would require one to be sober, not drunk.

Isn't it interesting that people point to verses 24-26 in Deuteronomy, but skip the context that starts back in verse 22?

Deut. 14:

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

So, this tells us what is to be done under normal circumstances.

Then in the opening words of verse 24 we find: "And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee,"

Note that this rule only applies if the Temple is either too far off or if the tithe is too heavy to be carried.

djconklin · Jul 2, 2007

Originally Posted by djconklin
Note that none of these verses even implies that it is porper [sic] to engage in the regular consumption of "strong drink" (probably had even less alcohol content than beer) on a regular basis. In fact, some even condemn it. The weight of the evidence shows that one is not to drink "strong drink." One is not to build a case on an anomaly (single verse). This is especially true when one digs even just a little bit and finds out that one is dead wrong!

Click to expand...

The weight of the evidence shows that one is not to get drunk on strong drink and that certain people were completely prohibited from indulging in it.

There is nothing in any of the verses that says one is not to get drunk. Define "drunk"? How drunk is drunk? Is it when you blood alcohol level exceeds .08? We now know that even one drink of wine affects one's judgment. Maybe you'd be limited to a shot glass of wine?

One should not build a case on what one believes is the meaning of a Hebrew word in a single verse (Deut. 14:26) without considering its usage in the rest of the OT.

I didn't, I used all of the verses and lexicons and commentaries by informed recent scholars in the field.

Scripture Manipulation...

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