Motu Proprio UPDATE!!!! - July 7th, it is already in the hands of 30 Bishops.

Status
Not open for further replies.

ProCommunioneFacior

I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)
Oct 30, 2003
11,154
562
42
Mesa, Arizona
Visit site
✟21,647.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Il Giornale: all sacraments, not just Mass

CATEGORY: SESSIUNCULUM — Fr. John Zuhlsdorf @ 4:35 pm

The solid Andrea Tornielli has a meaty piece in Il Giornale about the Motu Proprio.

Highlights:

1) The MP will be released probably on 7 July.
2) There will probably be no press conference to present the document.
3) The Pope offers a letter with the document to explain his decison.
4) The older rite was not abolished.
5) It had been decided by a group of cardinals in 1982 that there should be more use of the 1962 Missale.
6) The prayer about the "perfidis judeais" was already gone from that edition.
7) When "stable groups" ("guppi stabili") want the older Mass they can go to the parish priest (pastor).
8) It will be the bishops role to help iron out problems, resolve difficulties.
9) The old calendar and readings for Mass are preserved.
10) People can have not only Mass but all the sacraments in the old rite.
11) We don’t speak any longer of two rites, of Paul VI and of "Tridentine", but of one rite of the Latin church in two forms, ordinary and extraordinary.
12) The Pope explains in his letter that this is not a return to the past.
13) What happened after the Council was not supposed to be a break with the past.
14) Mass must be celebrated well in either form.
15) Card. Castrillon Hoyos explained the text.
16) The Pope came and they discused things for an hour.
17) In the last few months very few and very small changes were made to the text, as was explained on Wednesday.
18) In the last few weeks Cardinal Lehmanand Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor brought up the point abut Jews being upset.
19) The French had expressed worry abou tht e "unity" of the Church, something they did not seem to wory about in the face of liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo.
20) The Letter to the Chinese will be 28 pages.
21) The Pope declares the full validity of the sacraments celebrated by both the official and clandestine Churches.

Great article! Tornielli gets a thumbs up.


 
  • Like
Reactions: plainswolf
Upvote 0
I like the picture. The Pope in the dream of St. John Bosco represents the Popes from Bl. Pius IX to an indefinite period (as the Pope presides over both Councils in the dream). I believe John Paul II being shot represents when the Pope is shot and survives--and that's about where we are in the dream right now. I do believe that all those Popes have been trying to get us to the pillars (as is Pope Benedict). The focus on Mary and the Eucharist of all those Popes from Pio Nono on is unprecedented if we look at history. We have a lot of trials and difficulties to weather still, but there is reason for good hope :)

I agree!

Some of St. John B's prophecies are pretty fascinating.. one of them sounds related to the Third Secret of Fatima - about a Pope that leaves Rome and is "Hounded from one country to the next" - that's about all I can remember of it right now, I have it comewhere on one of the thousands of files on here someplace..




+
 
Upvote 0

ProCommunioneFacior

I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)
Oct 30, 2003
11,154
562
42
Mesa, Arizona
Visit site
✟21,647.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
10) People can have not only Mass but all the sacraments in the old rite.
.

I must say, after just getting back from a Baptism, Confirmation, and Mass from the old rite, that I am so very grateful that the MP will include permission/encouragement to have all of the sacraments celebrated according to the old rite.

The Baptism:bow: was out of this world.
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
7) When "stable groups" ("guppi stabili") want the older Mass they can go to the parish priest (pastor).

8) It will be the bishops role to help iron out problems, resolve difficulties.

These two sound like loopholes which certain bishops could use to avoid implementing the MP.

I just hope that my Catholic friends and relatives are not deceived.
 
Upvote 0

Aprill

The paths are many, the truth is ONE.
Aug 9, 2005
647
37
40
Arlington, Texas
✟16,008.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I find these arguementive post most saddening.

I just yesterday was baptized in the TLM and I have to say...just a few things.

1) I have a two Latin/English Missals. One goes in perfect order and you always know whats going on, if you pay attention.

2) THIS IS THE WAY IT WAS for MANY MANY YEARS. It has only been in 60 or so years that the NO has come into place...so are we really changing anything or just going back to the way it was?

3) Stop picking on people for posting information that some of us want to read. It's immature and uncalled for. If you do not wish to read it, no one is making you. Be an adult.

I'll probably get reamed for posting this, but I'm tired of the bickering that goes on, and the I'm better than you, I know more than you etc post. The condisending (I know I didn't spell it right) attitude from some people leaves a lot to be desired when simply asking a question or stating what you think.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PassthePeace1
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I find these arguementive post most saddening.

I just yesterday was baptized in the TLM and I have to say...just a few things.

1) I have a two Latin/English Missals. One goes in perfect order and you always know whats going on, if you pay attention.

2) THIS IS THE WAY IT WAS for MANY MANY YEARS. It has only been in 60 or so years that the NO has come into place...so are we really changing anything or just going back to the way it was?

3) Stop picking on people for posting information that some of us want to read. It's immature and uncalled for. If you do not wish to read it, no one is making you. Be an adult.

I'll probably get reamed for posting this, but I'm tired of the bickering that goes on, and the I'm better than you, I know more than you etc post. The condisending (I know I didn't spell it right) attitude from some people leaves a lot to be desired when simply asking a question or stating what you think.

May God grant you many years.

:groupray::groupray::groupray::groupray::groupray::groupray::groupray:
 
Upvote 0
Feb 22, 2007
11
1
✟15,136.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
An article from Cardinal Sean's blog about the Motu Proprio :

From Cleveland I flew to Rome at the request of Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone to participate in a meeting discussing the Holy Father’s Motu Proprio about the use of the older form of the Latin Mass. There were about 25 bishops there, including the president of Ecclesia Dei Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, the prefect of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments Cardinal Francis Arinze, several heads of bishops’ conferences as well as some cardinals and other residential bishops.

They shared with us the Motu Proprio and the Holy Father’s letter explaining it. We also had an opportunity to read the Latin document. We each commented on that, and then the Holy Father came in and shared some of his thoughts with us. The Holy Father is obviously most concerned about trying to bring about reconciliation in the Church. There are about 600,000 Catholics who are participating in the liturgies of the Society of St. Pius X, along with about 400 priest.

The Holy Father was very clear that the ordinary form of celebrating the Mass will be the new rite, the Norvus Ordo. But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church.

So the Holy Father’s motivation for this decision is pastoral. He does not want this to be seen as establishing two different Roman Rites, but rather one Roman Rite celebrated with different forms. The Motu Propio is his latest attempt at reconciliation.

In my comments at the meeting I told my brother bishops that in the United States the number of people who participate in the Latin Mass even with permission is very low. Additionally, according to the research that I did, there are only 18 priories of the Society of St. Pius X in the entire country. Therefore this document will not result in a great deal of change for the Catholics in the U.S. Indeed, interest in the Latin Mass is particularly low here in New England.

In our archdiocese, the permission to celebrate the Latin Mass has been in place for several years, and I granted permission when I was in Fall River for a Mass down on the Cape. The archdiocesan Mass is now at Immaculate Mary of Lourdes Parish in Newton. It is well attended, and if the need arises for an extension of that we would, of course, address it.

This issue of the Latin Mass is not urgent for our country, however I think they wanted us to be part of the conversation so that we would be able to understand what the situation is in countries where the numbers are very significant. For example, in Brazil there is an entire diocese of 30,000 people that has already been reconciled to the Church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BrotherKnight

Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Oct 24, 2005
1,393
68
43
Mesa, AZ
✟16,914.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
I wish I still had that graph that showed the amount of parishes that offer a TLM in 1989 and contrasts it with the amount of parishes that offer it in 2005. It looked like there were at lkeast 10 times the number by 2005. Unbelieveable growth!



+
You mean this one?

Inform.jpg
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Does the TLM graph above include the indult mass and all the independent Latin Masses celebrated without the blessing of the local ordinary (i.e. SSPX and independent priests who are either retired or not incardinated)?

Or is that graph only displaying the indult masses (TLM) that are approved by the local ordinary?
 
Upvote 0

ProCommunioneFacior

I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)
Oct 30, 2003
11,154
562
42
Mesa, Arizona
Visit site
✟21,647.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Does the TLM graph above include the indult mass and all the independent Latin Masses celebrated without the blessing of the local ordinary (i.e. SSPX and independent priests who are either retired or not incardinated)?

Or is that graph only displaying the indult masses (TLM) that are approved by the local ordinary?


It is only the Indult Masses
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Ah - then that graph is not a true representation.

Will the MP deal with hosts that are consecrated at the NO masses and then distributed at the TLM mass?

There are some trads who do not believe in the NO and become upset when the hosts are mixed. Unless this question is addressed, nothing earthshaking will be accomplished.

Is there information available that combines the Indult with the non-Indult 1962 Traditional Latin Masses?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

QuantaCura

Rejoice always.
Aug 17, 2005
9,164
958
42
✟21,762.00
Faith
Catholic
There are some trads who do not believe in the NO and become upset when the hosts are mixed. Unless this question is addressed, nothing earthshaking will be accomplished.
The Pope will not do anything that makes the current, normative Missal seem to be invalid. The folks who think it is invalid have deeper issues and they're not coming back anyway--they're waiting for the Pope to join them :( The Motu Propio is for the faithful, regardless of the reaction of various other separated or "irregular" ecclesial communities.
 
Upvote 0

ProCommunioneFacior

I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)
Oct 30, 2003
11,154
562
42
Mesa, Arizona
Visit site
✟21,647.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.