*tiptoes in cautiously*

Me again,

Just to briefly clear something up, is the Divine Liturgy all bible based? Are all the traditions and symbolisms and symbols is this all biblical? Can i back up everything in the orthodox belief/theology with the bible?
Thankyou in advance

God bless you all

Kriegy said:

Allow me to translate.

Port Power: short for Port Adelaide Power. A team in the national Australian Rule Football League (AFL), based in the Adelaide suburb of Port Adelaide. One of two Adelaide-based teams (the other being the Adelaide Crows).

weak: that was a misspelling. It should be "week".

St Kilda: a suburb of Melbourne. Local AFL team is the St Kilda Saints.

to smash: to win a game of sport by a convincing margin.

Subi: short for Subiaco. A suburb of Perth, where the oval is that the two Perth-based AFL teams (the West Coast Eagles and the Fremantle Dockers) play most of their home games.

centre: center. That was not a misspelling.

oh, the humanity: Subiaco was the home ground for xristos.anesti's favourite AFL team (the West Coast Eagles). The Eagles have a reputation for being unbeatable on their home ground and take pride in this reputation; in this instance, however, they were "smashed" by the visitors - which is (rightfully ) considered an shameful embarassment.
Banana benders: Queensland is a state in Australia which, being in or near the tropics (Queensland is like the Florida of Australia), has a climate suitable for growing bananas and it is famous for doing so. However, it is well known in Australian lore that bananas come off the tree straight. In order for them to acquire the "bent" shape in which they are found in supermarkets across Australia and throughout the world, it is necessary to employ people to bend them - ie, "Banana Benders". Because Queensland exports such a large quantity of bananas - and they are all bent - it is believed that a large percentage of the Queensland workforce must be dedicated to this task; hence it is common to refer to all Queenslanders collectively as "Banana Benders".

Whitsunday's: a small group of islands off the coast of Queensland, near the Great Barrier Reef.

Second Test: a "test match" is the name given to international sporting game in sports played in the British Commonwealth. Notably Cricket and Rugby refer to their international games as Tests. In Cricket, a Test Match is the full 5-day version of the game (though most of the time, when Australia plays, the games don't last a full 5 days... ). The "second" refers to the fact that there was a series of Tests played; this was the second in the series.

Pom: Australian/New Zealand nickname for someone from England. Thus, "second test against the poms" refers to a game of cricket played by Australia against the English (which Australia won, in less than 5 days).

Life's like a box of chocolates: from the movie "Forrest Gump". Everyone knows that, right?

GST: Goods and Services Tax. A federal 10% sales tax on most goods and services. Most modern capitalist economies have a tax of this type, but often under a different name (eg, in the UK it's called "Value Added Tax", or VAT; in the US it's simply called "sales tax" or "tax").

Here endeth today's lesson in Australiana. I hope everyone found it educational.

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Thank you for your very good natured response.

I only speak Texan.

Mary

Regarding liturgy, I think you'll find that an amazing amount of what is said/done/read in the Orthodox liturgy comes directly from the Bible. Some churches even have the relevant Bible verses cited in their liturgy books, and I bet it's online somewhere, though I haven't looked.

Having said that, I think you're holding the Divine Liturgy to a much higher standard than you're holding your current church's services to. Not that the DL is going to fail your test, since I already mentioned it's chock full of Bible, but assuming you're Protestant:

-Is Sunday School biblical? Where does it call for/describe Sunday School in the Bible?

-Where does it mention "worship teams" in the Bible? Altar calls? Pot luck dinners?

-Finally and most importantly, where in the Bible does it say that PowerPoint is okay? I think if Powerpoint had existed in Biblical times, not using it in church would've been the eleventh commandment.

-In all seriousness, where does it say "Bible" in the Bible?

My point is that if you want every single word of your service to be straight from the Bible, you should leave your current church right now. There is all sorts of stuff going on there that isn't from the Bible, I'm sure. And if you're going to go line by line and compare Biblical adherence between your current church service and the Orthodox DL, the DL will win hands down.

inGodsfootsteps said:

Me again,

Are all the traditions and symbolisms and symbols is this all biblical?

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Look in the Old Testament at God's instruction for temple worship. Our worship hearkens back to this, but in the light of it's prophetic fulfilment in Christ.

Ufonium: My apologies if i touched a nerve, i am merely seeking to learn and enquire. Thankyou for showing me why i really need to carefully word my posts. I didn't mean pedantically every word and every idea, i guess this is all new so i like to know where i stand. I know that the orthodox put great stock in the Nicene Creed. Let's see if I can ask a little more clearly what i want to know.

Where does the Divine Liturgy originate from? I was looking around orthodox wikipedia but i couldn't find an answer to this or i overlooked it. Where does the reverance (for lack of a better word) for the symbology and the saints originate from?

Just a side note, actually I think that I hold my own church services under a powerful microscope and scrutinize every aspect of it. I always check against the bible anything that the pastor says or I talk to my fiance's father who was an Elder for years. I am not trying to tear holes in Divine Liturgy or anything I am just trying to be thorough in my questioning of all this because it is all so new and forgive me, alien and strange to me. So much different to the way protestant churches are run from what little I have read.

Please forgive me if my questions seem strange but I am really only seeking to learn

As for PowerPoint, amen to that!

God bless you all and I very much appreciate any light you can shed on the subject at hand, hope my darling fiance doesn't mind me hi-jacking.

You didn't touch a nerve. I'm just in an awful mood, and I'm pretty snarky even when I'm in a good mood. I didn't mean to come off sounding angry. But I was once told that Orthodox worship was "unbiblical" by someone whose entire church was based around the Purpose Driven book, and that person didn't see the blatant screaming irony of his accusation, so I had to be a little heavy-handed when I worked up my response to him. Apparently, that response lodged in my brain and became my knee-jerk reaction to any question of biblical-ness. Sorry about that.

Welcome, Kyrie and IGf !

God willing that you find your home through this endeavor !
Certainly, you both have been involved in what seems like a heartfelt investigation; this is blessed

On the topic of Liturgy -- many good answers so far. If I may add -- the form of the Liturgy is very old, though longer than its earlier form. You may want to read the Didache (brief description, if I remember) and the Liturgy of Addai and Mari.

Kyrie asked about the language barrier in Liturgy -- many Parishes use English or both as well as Arabic/Greek/Russian, etc. I have consistently experienced Priests altering the balance of languages based on who is attending (even shifting mid-service for late-comers). For me, (Greek Parishes), the use of Greek was a reminder that I was "re-learning" my faith. Some concepts don't have the same flavor as they do in Western Christian useage, so a foreign language became an important part of learning the Orthodox Christian faith. And Liturgy books help

Some practices (veneration of the Saints) don't make sense IN PART because of Bible translations and theology. Consider for example; more verb tenses in Greek, 3 words for love, about a dozen each for word and energy -- hope this gives you an idea.

We all like to recommend books.My current favorite is Ancestral Sin by Romanides -- does a good job of explaining core differences and understanding of theology/words. Stiff read though.

Do you have Monasteries in Aus. ? There, much can be learned just by "being there" -- as is true of the services.

My apologies if this is overload -- and sorry for the late welcome,too.

Best !

Just my opinion - Orthodox services (not just the DL) are incredibly biblical. I never stop learning through them.

As an EC [ no do not ask as yet Kyrie and inGodsfootsteps ] can I suggest you try and get your hands on a book from the Light and Life Publishing Company ?

It's a green spiral bound book - The Divine Liturgy according to St John Chrysostom with a Commentary and Biblical references by Theodore Bobosh . The ISBN number is 0-937032-70-0

I think you would find this helpful

inGodsfootsteps said:

Ufonium: My apologies if i touched a nerve, i am merely seeking to learn and enquire. Thankyou for showing me why i really need to carefully word my posts. I didn't mean pedantically every word and every idea, i guess this is all new so i like to know where i stand. I know that the orthodox put great stock in the Nicene Creed. Let's see if I can ask a little more clearly what i want to know.

Where does the Divine Liturgy originate from? I was looking around orthodox wikipedia but i couldn't find an answer to this or i overlooked it. Where does the reverance (for lack of a better word) for the symbology and the saints originate from?

Just a side note, actually I think that I hold my own church services under a powerful microscope and scrutinize every aspect of it. I always check against the bible anything that the pastor says or I talk to my fiance's father who was an Elder for years. I am not trying to tear holes in Divine Liturgy or anything I am just trying to be thorough in my questioning of all this because it is all so new and forgive me, alien and strange to me. So much different to the way protestant churches are run from what little I have read.

Please forgive me if my questions seem strange but I am really only seeking to learn

As for PowerPoint, amen to that!

God bless you all and I very much appreciate any light you can shed on the subject at hand, hope my darling fiance doesn't mind me hi-jacking.

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In this post I will not answer any questions –

But will make some observation and suggestions, I would recommend you read it because it containst 869 words.


Therefore,

It is primarily all question of comfort and state of being used to something.


First of all – there is no Christian service – regardless of denomination – that is not Bible based – every one of 1.something billion Christians holds that what they hold is Bible based.

If you go from one group to the other from A to Z and all the way through you will find that all are based on Bible – but, this is external – the reality is that all are based on particular understanding of the Bible.

When a person XYZ speaks of the fact that what he believes is based on the Bible (and we get that so militantly displayed by American Evangelicals – have you seen that movie with Andrew Denton for i.e.?) the reality is in the presupposition that “I believe the Bible – thus you, if you disagree with me - do not”. This is indeed a logical fallacy.

The honest thing to say is – I believe in the way I see what the message of God is – in the way that has been revealed to me, up to this point –

So, when I said that all Christian groups have their services based on the Bible – is not really a measure of truth, nor accuracy, nor reality of revelation etc.



The better question is why do you think that what you think is more accurate that what everyone else thinks – and even here it is my subjectivity speaking to your subjectivity, for there is no “empirical proof” but it is an argument of faith.

So, when you ask if the Divine Liturgy is Bible based – the answer is simply yes. But this in no way answers your question, does it?



So, what you are trying to figure out is – why do we here (in this forum) hold what we hold and what is that – that you should consider as accurate – in order that you can measure the accuracy of what we see as accurate so that you can answer the question which is, in reality, is what we hold the true and right faith?


The first ingredient to the answer is prayer and fast. To speak simply – we are all speaking of faith matters and not empirical physics – so, I can not compare my formulae of propulsion with yours and then we can simply ascertain whose will work better, or whose is (more) right.

Thus we return, always and always, to prayer and fast – now, even though you might have used these before and you became something other than Orthodox Christian – these are the same tools – for to speak to God we need to speak to God – only this time, you will be speaking of issues in regard to Orthodoxy.


Prayer and fast are even more important that 1000 best Orthodox Theologians and Historians of this world… sitting here and shooting off the answers on your questions – for when you pray and fast you are accessing the world of Church Triumphant – and there, you have The Theologian.



Now, to start off in regard to Divine Liturgy and any of the other issues. It is important to realise and establish the methods of measurement – for, that is what you want – you want to scrutinise and measure the “correctness and truth” of Orthodoxy –and that is fine - but, what are your methods?

• Is it the listening to the Holy Spirit with patience and obedience?
• Is it your own personal thinking based on what you know and believe right now?
• Is it based on both of the above without prioritisation or maybe you will give priority to the Holy Spirit whilst still using what you know or will you give priority to yourself over Holy Spirit?

Without you making decisions about the methodology of measurement what we say here is going to be exactly that – what we say.

When you say that you check everything against the Bible – let me ask you, how can you prove to me that your view of the Bible – for that is what you in reality check against, you are checking against what you understand that the Bible says – which is a biased and subjective method – so, how can you prove to me that your view is right, that is, when you are checking issues you are checking against right measurements?

The truth is – there is nothing that you can do to convince me of that, so – having said all this, if you turn all this around – there is nothing that I can do to do the same to you, for we are dealing with practical presumptions, issues of faith, un-empirical subjective suggestions.

This is why I suggest that you should ask God to show you what is what and why is what – which means when you are given an answer here, do not measure it – forget about what you know and what you have been told here, but ask God if the new information has any substance and how much substance the information has.


God is with us with many years.

Anhelyna said:

As an EC [ no do not ask as yet Kyrie and inGodsfootsteps ] can I suggest you try and get your hands on a book from the Light and Life Publishing Company ?

It's a green spiral bound book - The Divine Liturgy according to St John Chrysostom with a Commentary and Biblical references by Theodore Bobosh . The ISBN number is 0-937032-70-0

I think you would find this helpful

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I'd like to point out that while this is an excellent book, it IS based on the slavic usage. The Bible and the Liturgy Fr. Constantine Nasr follows the Byzantine usage...both are excellent, but there are slight variants in the Divine Liturgy that might make someone wanting to attend a Greek or Antiochian Church go for the Nasr book, thought both would not hurt of budget allows!

inGodsfootsteps said:

Where does the Divine Liturgy originate from?

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The Church, same place we got the bible from. What is often overlooked is the fact that the church existed for a long time before any of the books in the New Testament were written. During that period the Church began to adapt the worship of the temple and synagogues to her own needs. Initially, the christians continued to meet and worship at the temple and synagogues followed by a separate gathering for Holy Communion. After the Jews forced them from the temple, the two were joined into one service and eventually became what we know as the Liturgy of St James. That was later modified by St Basil a few centuries later, and then again by St John Chrysostom which is the form we use for most of our services today.
So we didn't just receive the New Testament from the early church, we also received hymns, teaching, and a structure of worship. If you look at all the ancient churches, many of which developed in isolation from the others (such as in India and Ethiopia) you will find a remarkable similarity in the manner in which they worship. You will also find they have very little in common with the worship of many "bible based" churches.

I've also read a very strong argument that the Gospels were originally written and used for the liturgical needs of the church, to fill the place the Books of the Law held in the Jewish Temple worship. I wish I could find which site it was on but I have searched without success up til now.

xristos: I don't know how to respond to that, there is so much in it and it is so well thought out that I will have to digest it before I can say anything intelligent in regards to it. Suffice it to say that you are absolutely correct with the notion that it is based on our own personal view and understanding. Thank you for such a concise and meaningful post

Thank you to everyone else for your help, I am just having a few issues getting my head around the things that differ so much from my protestant upbringing. Thank you also for the recommendations about books to buy.

May the God revealed in and through Jesus Christ bless you and keep you all, rest assured you probably haven't heard the last from me

Hey! I'm from Adelaide and my sis will be in Melbourne till Wedenesday...lovely coincidence. Just popping in...I probably can't answer much but like reading and discovering new stuff as well...I'm quite interested in the Eastern spirituality

Kyrie said:

The first Greek phrase he learnt was 'sorry, I don't speak Greek!' I would love to learn the language too.
Thankyou

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Welcome to TAW Kyrie!!! (sorry i'm a lot late on the welcoming thing)

i can teach u Greek if u want to, lol.

Kyrie and InGodsfootsteps welcome to TAW

Hope and pray you find what you are looking for. I got to this thread kind of late but many nice Orthodox Christians covered everything here. My advice is take it slow and pray that Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ guide you to His Church.

God bless,
Philothei

Welcome to TAW! (little late. I haven't been on since Sunday).

One needs not be Russian, Romanian, Greek, Bulgarian, etc; to be Orthodox.

One must be a human being.

Most of us here are converts with (most likely) no drop of Eastern European blood at all.

EmperorConstantine said:

One needs not be Russian, Romanian, Greek, Bulgarian, etc; to be Orthodox.

One must be a human being.

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Well, even this is not really true. Ss Michael, Raphael and Gabriel are Orthodox - as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. None of these people are human beings...

Does that mean we can't convert aliens?