Predestination

I'll take.

I've always had a problem with predestination. I realize that it exists, but at the same time, why would God let people be born that he knows are going to hell? I understand that He gives us a free will to choose, but still...that doesn't seem very loving to me....I've definitely struggled with this one.

I feel predestination speaks of the gentiles being pre. with the jews to be one body called the church. I know God uses people He knows will go to hell to serve His purpose, but for God to choose certian people to go to hell then His word would be a lie when he says for all who will come.

What I believe is commonly misunderstood is that God sends people to Hell. I know in a way it is, but in truth, we all deserve to go to Hell but the elect are given grace.

To Seraph: A good book to read about when we question God is Job-Chapter 38 to the end. Helped me out alot after I questioned God's way of doing things. I believe that God will do what He will do and whatever I feel does not matter. I hope the passage from Job helps.

Now, does this mean not to evangelize? Of course not. Because do we know who is chosen? No. If we did, if say everyone that was chosen to be saved had a mark on their back. Then we would go only to those. But without knowing, this actually increases the want(atleast for me) to evangelize. But at times, I fall into the trap of thinking I have it figured out. I never do. I have seen those saved who I thought could never be brought.

Romans 9 (God's Sovereign Choice)

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[9] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[10]
"

My purpose for putting those verses out there was to present scipture that asked then clearly answered the fairness question. What more could I add to that.

A couple of my thoughts on predestination:

1. God doesn't fit into our box.
2 You should expect to struggle if you trying to understand predestination. We shouldn't expect all answers from scripture to be easy. We are talking God here. Praise His name!!!
3. God is truely soverign.
4. I had a great deal of difficulty with predestination when it was first preached to me. It took a lot of time, but accepting predestination as true has has been a blessing to me. It has led me to a truely better understanding of who God is. I know that anyone can be saved. God has already won against evil. God is holy and should be worshipped.
5. Predestination contradicts nothing else God has promised. It may seem to at first. You just have to think outside of the box.

Job_38 and Hewlett, wonderful posts. 

SeRapH&CheRi, That is a great book by a great man.  The works of Mr. Sproul are the most insightful and accurate books I've ever had the privelege of reading.

If I may, I would urge you to also read Sovereignty of God, by A.W. Pink.  It is a gripping book that explains this difficult issue in a very readable way.

God bless.

Originally posted by Reformationist
Job_38 and Hewlett, wonderful posts. 

If I may, I would urge you to also read Sovereignty of God, by A.W. Pink.  It is a gripping book that explains this difficult issue in a very readable way.

God bless.

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Amen! Pink is one of my favorite authors, and his book, "Sovereignty of God," is one of the best written books on the subject. I also would recommend reading Pink's book, "The Attributes of God," an excellent expose of God's nature.

Great suggestion, Reformationist!

I don't believe in predestination. The Bible says Jesus died for ALL, not just a select few. The Bible also says that God gave us a free will to choose, predestination is the idea that we have no free will and God decides whether we are going to hell or not before we were born and there's nothing we can do about it. Predestination must be false, as there is so much Biblical evidence against it.

Originally posted by Sky
The Bible says Jesus died for ALL, not just a select few.

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Where does it say this?

The Bible also says that God gave us a free will to choose

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Where does it say this?

predestination is the idea that we have no free will and God decides whether we are going to hell or not before we were born and there's nothing we can do about it.

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And you think differently?  Why is that?

Predestination must be false, as there is so much Biblical evidence against it.

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If there is so much evidence against predestination that you can see it so clearly why is it that this has been a topic of controversy for so many years?

Thanks for your answers,

God bless

We can't understand how God can predestine us and give us a free will at the same time (yes I believe in predestination).

how is it God can be 3 in 1? How is it God can exist outside of time? How is it God has no beginning? How is it God could be a man, yet be God... fully, completely, at the same time? How could God be God at the same time and be constricted to time? How is it God could know EVERYTHING, pastmpresent and future?

I don't know! We *can't* know =)

Predestination is in Scripture, many places. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined..." Ephesians somewhere, I forget where. It's probably been brought up before, hehe

I could make this really long, but it gets so tedious to read through long posts.

By the way - Jesus died for all. "For God so loved the WORLD ...." But He DID predestine. Yet we have a free will. Contradiction? No. We can't comprehend it.

Really, I can't comprehend eternity either. (sarcasm) Guess I can't believei n that either!

"Where does it say this? "

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

He WILLS all human beings to be saved. That's his desire. If it's his desire it would be stupid of him to pick and choose.

"Where does it say this? "

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.

and another

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It's a gift. You can CHOOSE to accept it.

Here are some more. Somewhat related.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?
Act 16:31 And they said, BELIEVE ON THE Lord Jesus Christ, and THOU SHALT BE SAVED, and thy house.

and

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.

"If there is so much evidence against predestination that you can see it so clearly why is it that this has been a topic of controversy for so many years? "

Why have some people not believe in God for so many years? Why now a days do so many believe all ways lead to Heaven? See where I am going?

Here are just some random salvation scriptures I feel like throw around that may or may not directly relate to topic but since we are talking about salvation...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Those above referring to laws of the OT and people thinking following them is what gets you into Heaven.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Originally posted by SeRapH&CheRi
Reformationist, Mizdoulos and Hewlett (any relation to Hewlett Packard?  ), Thanks for your thoughts and insight on the subject.  Ever since that first conversation with my friend regarding predestination and as I read through Sproul's book, it has honestly rocked my whole view of free will and how God works.  It's actually been challenging me and my whole mindset on the whole concept of predestination.  Please pray for me as I work through this and as I read through scripture on the subject. I will definitely be picking up A.W. Pink's literature!  Thanks!

S&C

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You're welcome, SeRapH&CheRi. &nbspDo enjoy your books by Pink! &nbspSproul is another great Christian writer as is John MacArthur, Spurgeon, and many others.

Originally posted by Project 86
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

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Desire, huh?  Why do you suppose that word is used in this context?  Hmmm...So God, the Creator of all things created, the omnipotent Ruler of all things desires something to happen, and it doesn't, right?  You do agree that not all people will be saved, right, even though you think God desires it to be so?  So here's God, sitting on His throne in Heaven, desiring something to happen, and it doesn't.  Do you think when God "desires" something to happen it's the same as when His totally impotent creation desires something?  You see, there's a huge difference between us and God.  When we "desire" something most often we desire it for the wrong reasons and are limited in our ability to bring about that which we desire.  God's desires, however, are always spawned from a totally righteous Being, Himself with no counsel from you or me or anyone else, His motive is always righteous, and His "desires" are always sovereignly carried out exactly as He Wills.  Do you worship a god that is so powerless that he desires one thing to happen and it doesn't?  It seems so.  You say God, in all His glory and omnipotence, desires that all people be saved and yet, not all are.  Are you saying that God cannot bring about His desires (Will)?  Or is it just that you don't think He really desires "all men to be saved?" 

He WILLS all human beings to be saved. That's his desire. If it's his desire it would be stupid of him to pick and choose.

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So the Will of the Sovereign, Omnipotent, Righteous, Creating, Controller of all things created "WILLS all human beings to be saved" and it doesn't happen?  Very powerful, sovereign, mighty god you have there. 

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.

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Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

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Are these in response to the "free will" issue or the "dying for all" thing?  They don't seem to have anything to do with "free will" so I'll respond assuming they deal with the "dying for all" belief.

So the free gift of justification of life came upon all men?  That's your belief right?  Do you know what "justification of life" means?  It means eternal salvation.  It means being judged righteous by God.  Do you still think that came upon all men?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It's a gift. You can CHOOSE to accept it.

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Hmmm...really?  That's strange because here in Ephesians 2 it seems to say differently:

Ephesians 2
<SUP>1</SUP> And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Hmm...so, He made someone alive.&nbsp; Does that say He sought their counsel (will) first?&nbsp; What was their salvitic disposition at the time they were "made alive?"&nbsp; Oh that's right!&nbsp; They were dead.&nbsp; Does that mean physically?&nbsp; Or spiritually?&nbsp; So you think a spiritually dead person "turned to God" and "accepted His making them alive?"&nbsp; Well, let's continue:

<SUP>2</SUP>in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience

So, when we were dead, did we do things according to God's Word or according to the "course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobeience?"&nbsp; I think that one's pretty self explanatory.

<SUP>3</SUP>among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

So here's Paul saying the people who are now changed, that is, those God made alive used to, before being "made alive," walk according to the same spirit of disobedience that those who have not been made alive still walk.&nbsp; We were children of God at that time?&nbsp; Or maybe, just maybe, "children of wrath?"&nbsp; Then Paul says, "just as the others."&nbsp; Who do you think he might have been talking about if "justification of life" (salvation) has "come upon all men?"&nbsp; Who are those "others?"&nbsp; Maybe, just maybe, those are the people whom God has not redeemed.&nbsp; Hmmm...I haven't yet seen where we "accept the gift" yet, but maybe it's further on.&nbsp; Let's continue:

<SUP>4</SUP>But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,<SUP> 5</SUP>even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

So God made us alive why?&nbsp; You say it's because we "accept the free gift," right?&nbsp; What does it say here?&nbsp; It's because of He is "rich in mercy," because of the "great love with which He loved us," "made us alive WHEN WE WERE DEAD in trespasses."&nbsp; How were we saved?&nbsp; Was it by the "accepting" of the "gift?"&nbsp; Oh that's right, it was God's grace.&nbsp; Hmmm...still haven't seen where we "accept" the "gift" for it to be made manifest.&nbsp; But, maybe it's further on.&nbsp; Let's continue:

<SUP>6</SUP>and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

He raised us up, He made us sit together.&nbsp; Hmmm...where were you in this?

<SUP>7</SUP>that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.<SUP> 8</SUP>For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,<SUP> 9</SUP>not of works, lest anyone should boast.

So let's see.&nbsp; We were saved by grace, though faith, and not having to do with anything of ourselves (like accepting the gift) and it's God's gift, not your works, so you can't boast.&nbsp; So why were you saved?&nbsp; Did it have anything to do with anything you did?&nbsp; Because, if you say it did, your boasting that your salvation was the result of your own doing, your "acceptance" and that it's not solely by God's grace.

<SUP>10</SUP>For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

So when Paul says "we" who do you think he's talking about?&nbsp; Everyone?&nbsp; Of course you do.&nbsp; However, Paul clarifies who he is talking about.&nbsp; Those who were "created in Christ Jesus for good works."&nbsp; When did God prepare those people to do exactly that which He had created them for?&nbsp; It says "beforehand."&nbsp; Before what?&nbsp; Well, I'll tell ya.&nbsp; I don't know the exact second but I can tell you it was looooooooooong before you think you "accepted the gift."

Here are some more. Somewhat related.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?
Act 16:31 And they said, BELIEVE ON THE Lord Jesus Christ, and THOU SHALT BE SAVED, and thy house.

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I'm not disputing belief is necessary.&nbsp; I'm&nbsp;clarifying what the source is that enables some to believe, and some not to.&nbsp; Guess what?&nbsp; It's not the creation.&nbsp; It's the Creator.&nbsp;

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

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Again, those that will&nbsp;"confess with their mouth" and "believe in their heart unto righteousness" and&nbsp;"call upon him" are those whom He has "prepared beforehand" to do so, His elect.&nbsp; He is sovereign, not us.&nbsp; We are subject to His&nbsp;Will.&nbsp; He is not subject&nbsp;to our will.

Why have some people not believe in God for so many years?

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Uhhh...I thought I was just pointing out that very thing.&nbsp; They are fallen and God has not regenerated them yet.&nbsp; He has not "taken out their heart of stone" and replaced it with the heart of flesh" that is able to believe.

Why now a days do so many believe all ways lead to Heaven?

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Uhhh...because they're relying on their own fallen beliefs which are erroneous.&nbsp; It is their very nature to do so.&nbsp; They are only acting according to their own demented, fallen nature that acts in accordance to the same spirit of disobedience that compels the prince of the power of the air.

See where I am going?

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Not in the least.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

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And yet you still assume that for the death of God to be made manifest in your life something other than His death is required.&nbsp; So the death of God wasn't enough but it's "your acceptance" that makes the difference.&nbsp; Who is glorified in your position?&nbsp; Oh that's right, you.

God bless

Originally posted by Reformationist
So the Will of the Sovereign, Omnipotent, Righteous, Creating, Controller of all things&nbsp;created "WILLS all human beings to be saved" and it doesn't happen?&nbsp; Very powerful, sovereign, mighty god you have there.

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Sorry, but this is a rather childish argument.&nbsp;Did God "desire" Adam and Eve to obey Him in the Garden of Eden? Or did God "desire" them to sin? Does God "desire" evil on the earth?

And yet you still assume that for the death of God to be made manifest in your life something other than His death is required.&nbsp; So the death of God wasn't enough but it's "your acceptance" that makes the difference.&nbsp; Who is glorified in your position? Oh that's right, you.

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Providing answers to your own questions is certainly one way to "win" an argument!

love in Christ,

Malcolm

Originally posted by Loser For Jesus
Sorry, but this is a rather childish argument.&nbsp;Did God "desire" Adam and Eve to obey Him in the Garden of Eden? Or did God "desire" them to sin? Does God "desire" evil on the earth?

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Oh no.&nbsp; Of course God desires that&nbsp;there be no evil on earth.&nbsp; Of course God desired that Adam and Eve obey Him in the Garden.&nbsp; Yeah.&nbsp; Right.&nbsp; God doesn't want something to happen, but it&nbsp;happens anyway.&nbsp; Very powerful.&nbsp; Very sovereign.&nbsp; Maybe, just maybe, when you see&nbsp;the little events we experience as only one little speck in time, and since you can't see the purpose for everything that happens you should trust that God, in His Divine sovereignty, has foreordained that that event is the exact thing necessary to bring about the changes in you that He has sovereignly decreed.&nbsp; God - not reacting to the things you or I do, You and I- reacting to everything that comes your way.&nbsp; Who is exalted there?&nbsp; You answer this time.

Providing answers to your own questions is certainly one way to "win" an argument!

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I wasn't trying to win anything Malcolm.&nbsp; I was obviously out of line and did not say it in a spirit of love though.&nbsp; I apologize.&nbsp;

God bless

Originally posted by Reformationist
Maybe, just maybe, when you see&nbsp;the little events we experience as only one little speck in time, and since you can't see the purpose for everything that happens you should trust that God, in His Divine sovereignty, has foreordained that that event is the exact thing necessary to bring about the changes in you that He has sovereignly decreed.&nbsp; God - not reacting to the things you or I do, You and I- reacting to everything that comes your way.&nbsp; Who is exalted there? You answer this time.

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There's no question of belittling God's sovereignty here, nor&nbsp;His glory. You simply need to understand God's sovereignty on a much deeper level.

Obviously God allowed Adam and Eve to sin, obviously He allows evil in the world - because these things are part of His perfect and sovereign plan. The question was, does God actually "desire" these things? God caused the Israelites to eat their own children (Jeremiah 19:9), but did He really want to have to do something like that?

On the one hand, God is a God of love and&nbsp;holiness - therefore, He obviously doesn't desire evil or disobedience or people eating their own children. On the other hand, God is still a God of love and holiness - therefore, He desires to punish sin and disobedience and draw only those who will truly love Him into fellowship with Himself.

This is in no way a question of God reacting to us, or being forced into anything by us. It is a matter of God always acting in accordance&nbsp;with His own divine character.

You can't deal with this issue&nbsp;using human wisdom, or with a neat little package of doctrines. Let God crucify your own opinions and show you His wisdom on this.

love in Christ,

Malcolm