How then shall we live?

TruelightUK · Sep 18, 2002

I have been accused by some of not taking the Bible seriously (ie literally) enough.  So I'd be interested to hear people's interpretations of Christ's teaching on finance and property (esp. from those who maintain the Gospel has nothing to do with socio-economic issues).  For a start off, take a look at Luke chapter 12.  In particular, I'd like to draw your attention to verse 33:

Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not... for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

As Bible-believing Christians, should we be taking Christ at his word - it appears the very earliest Christans did (see Acts 2:24,45 and 4:32,24-25), so why do we not do the same?

 

Anthony

Reformationist · Sep 18, 2002

Are you asking if this verse is justification for not focusing on materialistic things but rather on the treasure we store up in Heaven by our obedience to His Word?  If not I'm sorry.  I don't quite understand.

God bless.

TruelightUK · Sep 19, 2002

I'm saying, in that verse, Christ specifically tells people to sell their posessions and give to the poor; are we to take that literally, or not?

Spreading the net more widely, Christ speaks extensively about not looking to material goods, wealth, property etc. for our security. How do we relate this to the way we live our lives in an increasingly materialistic society? Is there any justification in Scripture for being as tied up in money-making, protecting our financial security, being 'upwardly mobile' etc. etc. as the next man?

Anthony

paulewog · Sep 19, 2002

EVERYTHING Christ tells His disciples to do, we should do too?

Hmm, I better go get in my fishing boat and cast a net, maybe I'll catch some fish...

..... extreme example, but I think I made my point... hopefully, hehe

Reformationist · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by TruelightUK
I'm saying, in that verse, Christ specifically tells people to sell their posessions and give to the poor; are we to take that literally, or not?

Spreading the net more widely, Christ speaks extensively about not looking to material goods, wealth, property etc. for our security. How do we relate this to the way we live our lives in an increasingly materialistic society? Is there any justification in Scripture for being as tied up in money-making, protecting our financial security, being 'upwardly mobile' etc. etc. as the next man?

Anthony

Suffice to say, I'm not very well versed in this area.  However, I think this deals more with Christ's commands that we not be caught up in the sins of letting money be our god and have dominion over us.

God bless,

Don

paulewog · Sep 19, 2002

Yeah, object lessons are good

TruelightUK · Sep 19, 2002

Please, Paulewog, I am trying to make a serious point here!

Some verses are clearly geared to one or two specific individuals on one particular occasion (casting your net in the sea), others are clearly of far more general application: in this case, Jesus just spent a whole chapter teaching on the dangers of materialism (sorry, Luke just devoted a whole chapter to Jesus teaching on the subject!), which seems clearly designed at establishing basic principles to govern the nature of discipleship for all time. A subject on which he often speaks in similar tones to different audiences, and which is born out in much of the rest of the NT. Amongst this teaching comes a command to sell your possessions and give to the poor. Which the first Chruch in Jerusalem interpreted fairly literally - they had all things in common and even sold their houses to meet the needs of the poorer brethren. And you tell me that is not meant for us today?

I'd get roundly told off for saying that one verse in Paul's letters about women wearing head coverings is not necessarily for today's culture (or something similar), and you tell me we can discount a specific command of Christ? Precisely why can we discount something which was clearly of great importance in the earliest days of the Church? At least give me some reasons - from Scripture if possible - why this is so! If it's not to be taken literally, then what did he mean exactly? And how, precisely, does the overall teaching affect the way we live our lives in our consumer-dominated society? Or can we simply dismiss it because times have changed (unlike the hats!)?

Anthony

EJO · Sep 20, 2002

When interpreting the Bible you need to keep a couple things in mind.

Scripture should interpret scripture. There are alot of people throughout the bible who had lots of money- King David, Abraham(lots of property/goods, equals prosperity), Jacob. Paul was pretty influencial, I imagine that ha had a lot on money.
Another thing to remember, the bible is a history book as well, so there is a certain amount of historical contex that plays into the writings of the new testement. Abraham had 2 wives, and had children with thier maid servants. It is not permitted to day (unless you are mormon...). But at that time of history, having offspring to pass along the family name, and inheritance was a huge thing back then.
So, we have to remember the Jewish culture at that time of history had a lot of restrictions against women. That is not the case to day.
Context of history,and the interpretation is very important to look at the big picture.

God Bless
TruelightUK

TruelightUK · Sep 21, 2002

Okay, good point. One I've used myself on the women and hats thing (not that everyone agrees with me...but that's another story!). So what is the historical context that proves that, while it was 'wrong' to hold on to your riches in 1st century Palestine, it's perfectly okay to do so in 21st century USA / Britain / Australia?

Incidentally, if Paul was so wealthy, why did he need to sew tents to subsidise his ministry?

Anthony

Loser For Jesus · Sep 23, 2002

Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

This verse pretty much sums it up. I hope no-one is going to argue with the clear words of Jesus Christ Himself.

Many people say that, as Christians, we should keep money in its proper perspective. Well, Jesus says that the proper perspective for money is to "hate" and "despise" it.

This doesn't mean that we should immediately go and sell all our stuff and refuse to deal with money anymore. It means we are wholly devoted to God and to obeying whatever His will for us is. Then, if He tells us to sell something to give to the poor, we will gladly do it. If He tells us to do something that we cannot afford, we will gladly do it. If He tells us to make ourselves poor for the sake of others, we will gladly do it.

Historical context has nothing to do with this particular issue (or the women and coverings issue either, but that's a different subject).

love in Christ,
Malcolm

Reformationist · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by TruelightUK
Okay, good point. One I've used myself on the women and hats thing (not that everyone agrees with me...but that's another story!). So what is the historical context that proves that, while it was 'wrong' to hold on to your riches in 1st century Palestine, it's perfectly okay to do so in 21st century USA / Britain / Australia?

Incidentally, if Paul was so wealthy, why did he need to sew tents to subsidise his ministry?

Anthony

I believe the biggest problem with "the almighty dollar" and how we, as sinful people, relate to it at times is that we make the big mistake of looking to certain things to do stuff that those things were not designed to do.  For instance, money.  We look to money to bring happiness or security or power.  The problem is, money was created by God as nothing more than a medium of exchange for goods and services.  Another example is our significant other (wife, girlfriend, husband, boyfriend).  We were created as an intensified means of exposing within the family unit, specifically each other, those things that God wants us to practice conforming to righteousness.  Yes, there is an obvious joy in being with someone that thinks the way you do.  However, how much more beneficial is it to be put in a position with someone you care about that feels differently about something?  We learn a pleathora of things in those situations, love, compassion, patience, self-control just to name a few.

We are commanded to be wise with our money and look to God to bring the increase.  The important part about that increase is that it is not so that we can live this extravagant lifestyle that many desire.  It's purpose is to enable us to serve others while, at the same time, taking care of our family.

As far as Paul goes, he sewed tents so that he would not be a burden on those he ministered to.  Strange how these big time, evangelical, "name it and claim it" preachers are constantly urging their disillusioned followers to give, give, give till it hurts.

God bless.

 

EJO · Sep 23, 2002

If we all gave our money away and had nothing, then how are we all able to post on te net, if we don't have computers, since we gave them all away...

hmmmm.

Loser For Jesus · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
The problem is, money was created by God as nothing more than a medium of exchange for goods and services.

Ummmm. Do you honestly believe that God "created" money?? Will there be money in heaven?

love in Christ,

Malcolm

Reformationist · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by Loser For Jesus
Ummmm. Do you honestly believe that God "created" money?? Will there be money in heaven?

love in Christ,

Malcolm

Yes Malcolm, I believe God created everything created.  No, I don't think there will be money in Heaven.

God bless

Loser For Jesus · Sep 23, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
Yes Malcolm, I believe God created everything created.  No, I don't think there will be money in Heaven.

God bless

Hmmm. Interesting. This leads to a whole lot of other questions, but I think they'd be getting rather off-topic. I will save them for another time.

love in Christ,

Malcolm

EJO · Sep 23, 2002

Boy, I'd love to be in a Bible studywith you two guys- Loser and Reformationist

God Bless!

scott · Sep 23, 2002

I think a good verse for this discussion would be Acts 5:4. Ananias wasn't blasted for owning land, and he wasn't blasted for keeping some of the proceeds from selling it. He was blasted for keeping some and saying he gave all. He was blasted for lieing. If God blesses a man with riches the goal is not to immediately get rid of it, but to be a good steward of what God has given ( not just money by the way). Consider the parable of the talents.

scott · Sep 23, 2002

I think a good verse for this discussion would be Acts 5:4. Ananias wasn't blasted for owning land, and he wasn't blasted for keeping some of the proceeds from selling it. He was blasted for keeping some and saying he gave all. He was blasted for lieing. If God blesses a man with riches the goal is not to immediately get rid of it, but to be a good steward of what God has given ( not just money by the way). Consider the parable of the talents.
God bless,
Scott

TruelightUK · Sep 24, 2002

Thanks , Loser and Reformationist for some very sensible input on this one. Not sure about the 'God created money' idea

, but apart from that I agree. I'm sure the Bible itself makes an explicit link between covetousness and idolatry (tho' I can't recall the specific reference), and, as you say, much of the things we prioritise in this life really amount to 'worshipping the creature rather than the creator' - the money/ possessions/person become our security and our hope of salvation - the one we run to in times of trouble - rather than God.

As for the selling our computers and getting off the net, I sometimes wonder I that might not be a very inspired idea!?! (BTW, in a 'global village' of 100 people, there would be only one pc - who gets to keep it???!)

Anthony

Reformationist · Sep 24, 2002

Originally posted by TruelightUK
Not sure about the 'God created money' idea , but apart from that I agree.

Let me clarify my position on this as it seems to have stumped some people.  I don't mean to imply that God handed down a hundred dollar bill to Moses along with the commandments.  As most of you know, I believe that all things that happen are part of God's Will.  I just meant to relay that I believe that the system of transfer, compensation for goods and services, no matter what the unit of compensation, is something that is all part of God's plan.  Many years ago people would trade goods for other goods or services.  We are still doing that today.  However, our recognized unit of transfer is much more efficient then 100 goats for a piece of property or a dowery for our daughters.  My main point is that the ramifications of exchanging money, or possessions, for goods and services is just a small part of the world system that God set up that causes us to contend with things on a daily basis that can tempt us to sin due to our own weaknesses.  The covetesness of our fallen nature makes no distinction between a green bill and a goat.  It's all about viewing money and possessions in the proper perspective.

God bless

How then shall we live?

Tilter at religious windmills

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