Are Trinitarians Christians?

OldShepherd · Sep 20, 2002

Previously posted by OS.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Both Paul and Peter call Jesus, God and savior! Anti-Trinitarians want to argue, based on the English translations, that this means two different entities, God is one, Jesus the savior, the other. But that is not the way the Greek works. There is a rule of grammar called Sharps rule, see links below, which states;

In Greek, when two nouns of the same case are connected by kai(and), and the definite article appears before the first noun but not before the second, both nouns refer to the same person if the nouns are (1) personal, (2) singular, and (3) non-proper nouns, and if the nouns are (d) not normally paired semantically as denoting two persons.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/theo/index.html - OSAS

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/theo/OP01.html

http://caic.org.au/jws/granvill.htm

www.atlantaapologist.org

http://www.net-magic.net/users/bmj/and.html

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Paul said Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Thomas called Jesus Lord and God. Jesus praised Him. I have already proved on this thread that Thomas was addressing Jesus as the Lord of me and the God of me, not exclaiming, Oh my god! If such an exclamation even existed in Greek, a devout Jew would never use the name of י הוה in that manner.

The Tetragrammaton, (יהוה), is used of Jesus, twice in the N.T., Rom 10:9, and Act 2:21.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him (Isaiah 28:6, יהוה) shall not be ashamed.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (יהוה) shall be saved.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (יהוה) shall be saved.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Both Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 are quoting Joel 2:32.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (יהוה) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (יהוה) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (יהוה) shall call.

Two witnesses, Paul and Luke, tell us, the YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, (יהוה) of Joel 2:32 is Jesus!

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This outoVis the true God, and eternal life.

Anti-Trinitarians claim that the phrase, This is the true God, and eternal life. refers to the Father but Greek grammar requires it to refer to the masculine noun, i.e. Jesus, which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV/this.

Example #1
Luk 9:24 For (1) whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but (2) whosoever will lose his life for my sake, (the same) outoV shall save it.

Who will save his life, whosoever #(1) or #(2)? Mt 10:39, Mt 16:25, Mr 8:35, Lu 17:33, and Joh 12:25, all clearly show it is #2, the noun which immediately precedes the pronoun outoV.

Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Example #2
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, (this man) (outoV) went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Which man went to his house justified the Pharisee, vs. 11? Or the tax collector, vs. 13, the noun, which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV? Verse 13 explains it was the tax collector. The one who humbled him self was justified!

Example #3
Luk 19:1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and (he) outoV was rich.

Who was rich Jesus or Zacchaeus, the noun, which immediately precedes the pronoun, outoV?

Therefore, This (outoV) is the true God, and eternal life., refers to Jesus! See next post for early church views on Jesus as the "true God."

OldShepherd · Sep 20, 2002

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Does the phrase This is the true God, and eternal life. refer to Jesus in this verse or to God as in John 17:3?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So we would expect to find true teachings in His church. Here are quotes from the early church fathers identifying Jesus as the true God

To verify click (Here) to link to the Early Church Fathers.

A Second Epistle Of Ignatius To St. John. (50-110 AD)
Ignatius was a disciple of John the Beloved, author of the Gospel of John, the three epistles and Revelation.

IF thou wilt give me leave, I desire to go up to Jerusalem, and see the faithful(2) saints who are there, especially Mary the mother, whom they report to be an object of admiration and of affection to all. For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who bore the true God from her own womb, provided he is a friend of our faith and religion? And in like manner [I desire to see] the venerable James, who is surnamed Just, whom they relate to be very like Christ Jesus in appearance,(4) in life, and in method of conduct, as if he were a twin-brother of the same womb.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV. (120-22 AD)

For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians

But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,[8] but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh."[9]

Clement of Rome, The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book VII. (75-85 AD)

For they form the character, not knowing the true God. "For he that loveth father or mother more than Me," the Father and Teacher of the truth, who regenerates and creates anew, and nourishes the elect soul, "is not worthy of Me"--He means, to be a son of God and a disciple of God, and at the same time also to be a friend, and of kindred nature. "For no man who looks back, and puts his hand to the plough, is fit for the kingdom of God."[1]

The Extant Works And Fragments Of Hippolytus. Expository Treatise Against The Jews. (170-236 AD)

4. Now Christ prayed all this economically(2) as man; being, however, true God. But, as I have already said, it was the "form of the servant"(3) that spake and suffered these things. Wherefore He added, "My soul looked for reproach and trouble," that is, I suffered of my own will, (and) not by any compulsion. Yet "I waited for one to mourn with me, and there was none," for all my disciples forsook me and fled; and for a "comforter, and I found none."

Martyrdom Of The Holy And Glorious Apostle Bartholomew

And his craft was such, that when he saw the Son of the virgin fasting forty days, he knew in truth that He was the true God. The true God and man, therefore, hath not given Himself out to be known, except to those who are pure in heart,(1) and who serve Him by good works.

Ancient Syriac Documents

Martyrdom[1] Of The Holy Confessors Shamuna, Guria, And Habib, From Simeon Metaphrastes.[2]

For we are the worshippers of Christ the true God, and (again we say it) of Him of whose kingdom there shall be no end; who also is alone able to glorify those in return who glorify His name.

Preaching Of The Apostle Thaddaeus At Edessa; Copy Of Five Letters,

His name alone, invoked by His disciples, produces the greatest miracles: what has happened to myself is the most evident proof of it. Your august Majesty knows henceforth what ought to be done in future with respect to the Jewish nation, which has committed this crime; your Majesty knows whether a command should not be published through the whole universe to worship Christ as the true God. Safety and health."

VII. On The Nature Of Christ.[8]
For the deeds done by Christ after His baptism, and especially His miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh. For, being at once both God and perfect man likewise, He gave us sure indications of His two natures:[10] of His Deity, by His miracles during the three years that elapsed after His baptism; of His humanity, during the thirty similar periods which preceded His baptism, in which, by reason of His low estate[11] as regards the flesh, He concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before all ages.

Phoenix · Sep 20, 2002

Hiya OS

Would you mind giving your opinion on Zech 12:10 ?

LightBearer · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by cougan
Another quick verse that shows Jesus being God.

Hebrews 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 _For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Hebrews 3:1-6 reads: Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confessJesus. He was faithful to the One that made him such, as Moses was also in all the house of that One. For the latter is counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who constructs it has more honor than the house. Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God. And Moses as an attendant was faithful in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterwards, but Christ was faithful as a Son over the house of that One. We are the house of that One, if we make fast our hold on our freeness of speech and our boasting over the hope firm to the end.

Earlier, the writer had said that Jesus, as Gods Son, had inherited a name more excellent than that of the angels. The writer also pointed out that if the word of the Law that God transmitted through angels to Moses merited attention, more so would the word spoken by the Son. (Hebrews 1:1-4; 2:1-4) Then, in Hebrews chapter 3, the writer continued to stress Jesus superiority.

As background, recall that after Miriam and Aaron complained over Moses major role in Israel, God called Moses my servant entrusted with (faithful in, Greek Septuagint Version) all my house. (Numbers 12:7) Since Aaron as high priest had access to the tabernacle (even the Most Holy), God must have been referring to the nation, or congregation, of Israel as His house in which Moses was His servant. The writer evidently alluded to this in Hebrews 3:2. He said that Jesus was faithful to God, just as Moses had been in all the house of that One. But then the writer wrote that Jesus is counted worthy of more glory than Moses. Why? 

The writer reasoned that he who constructs it has more honor than the house. Any man who has built a literal house would agree. The writer was saying, then, that Jesus, the Son of God, merited more honor than Moses because Jesus constructed a house, whereas Moses did not. The writer acknowledged, of course, that the ultimate credit for all things goes to God.Hebrews 3:3, 4.

Extending the line of reasoning, the writer said that Moses was a faithful attendant in the house. (Hebrews 3:5) Yes, Moses was himself in or was part of the congregation, or house, of Israel. But what of the One who would come later, the Messianic prophet whom Moses foreshadowed and foretold? (Deuteronomy 18:18, 19; John 1:21, 25; Acts 3:22, 23) That prophet would be more than a faithful attendant in the house of Israel. Paul wrote that Christ was a Son over the house of that One, Jehovah God and therefore still a servant of that One and not therefore being the same as that One. Over the house of Israel? No, the writer had in mind something greater.

Whereas Moses served in a house according to the Law covenant, Jehovah promised a better arrangement under a new covenant. (Hebrews 8:7-13; Jeremiah 31:31-34) The new covenant is with the house, or nation, of spiritual Israel. (Galatians 6:16) Thus the writer stated: We are the house of that One, if we make fast our hold on our freeness of speech.Hebrews 3:6; compare 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Peter 2:5; Matthew 16:18.

So the house in which Moses served was the fleshly congregation of Israel, but the house that Jesus constructs and over which he serves is the congregation of spiritual Israelites who are maintaining their hope firm to the end.Hebrews 3:6.

Since he that constructed all things is God, to Jehovah God goes the ultimate credit for all of this construction since it was he who created and supplied all the building materials including the living stones that Jesus used to build the Christian Congregation. Yes Jesus built using materials that God created and clearly could not do so without his fathers authority.

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ.in turn the head of the Christ is God".

 

OldShepherd · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by Phoenix
Hiya OS

Would you mind giving your opinion on Zech 12:10 ?

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

John Gill, Commentary on the Whole Bible
In the Talmud {f}, mention being made of the mourning after spoken of, it is asked, what this mourning was made for? and it is replied, R. Dusa and the Rabbins are divided about it: one says, for Messiah ben Joseph, who shall be slain; and another says, for the evil imagination, that shall be slain; it must be granted to him that says, for Messiah the son of Joseph that shall be slain; as it is written, "and they shall look upon whom they have pierced, and mourn", &c. for, for the other, why should they mourn? hence Jarchi and Kimchi on the place say, our Rabbins interpret this of Messiah the son of Joseph, who shall be slain; and the note of Aben Ezra is, all the nations shall look unto me, to see what I will do to those who have pierced Messiah the son of Joseph. Grotius observes, that Hadarsan on #Ge 28:10-16 understands it of Messiah the son of David. The Jews observing some prophecies speaking of the Messiah in a state of humiliation, and others of him in an exalted state, have coined this notion of two Messiahs, which are easily reconciled without it. The Messiah here prophesied of appears to be both God and man; a divine Person called Jehovah, who is all along speaking in the context, and in the text itself; for none else could pour out the spirit of grace and supplication; and yet he must be man, to be pierced; and the same is spoken of, that would do the one, and suffer the other; and therefore must be the yeanyrwpov, or God-man in one person. As to what a Jewish writer {g} objects, that this was spoken of one that was pierced in war, as appears from the context; and that if the same person that is pierced is to be looked to, then it would have been said, "and mourn for me, and be in bitterness for me"; it may be replied, that this prophecy does not speak of the piercing this person at the time when the above wars shall be; but of the Jews mourning for him at the time of their conversion, who had been pierced by them, that is, by their ancestors, hundreds of years ago; which now they will with contrition remember, they having assented to it, and commended it as a right action; and as for the change from the first person to the third, this is not at all unusual in Scripture:

f} T. Bab. Succah, fol. 52. 1.
{g} R. Isaac Chizzuk Emunah, par. 1. c. 36. p. 309.
{h} wyle "super hoc", Junius & Tremellius; "propter hoc", Gussetius; "super illo", Piscator, Cocceius.

cougan · Sep 21, 2002

The unanswerd question. I challenge you to explain this one verse.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

There are many more like this one. But, please go ahead and try and explain away the clarity of this verse that shows 2 different persons being refered to here as Jehovah. Two agreeing as one saying I am the first and I am the last and besides me there is no God. We even see Jesus make this statement in Rev 1:11, 17 and 22:13.

Lets see if you can come up with something more creative than its a mistranslations this time.

The ball is your court now, what are you going to do with it?

OldShepherd · Sep 21, 2002

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Not only does John, in the gospel and Revelation, apply Zech 12:10 to Jesus but notice that in the original Hebrew, יהוה speaking, says, "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" When was יהוה ever pierced? And then יהוה switches to the third person, "they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son." The one who is pierced, יהוה, will be mourned, but the one who is pierced and the one who is mourned are somehow distinct from each other. Note, also that in the Talmud, long before Jesus, this passage was considered Messianic.

LightBearer · Sep 21, 2002

Originally posted by cougan
The unanswerd question. I challenge you to explain this one verse.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

There are many more like this one. But, please go ahead and try and explain away the clarity of this verse that shows 2 different persons being refered to here as Jehovah. Two agreeing as one saying I am the first and I am the last and besides me there is no God. We even see Jesus make this statement in Rev 1:11, 17 and 22:13.

Lets see if you can come up with something more creative than its a mistranslations this time.

The ball is your court now, what are you going to do with it?

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

Here God describes himself as Israels King and then goes on to describe himself as Israels repurchaser or redeemer in the position of warrior God. No two Gods here just the one God in two capacities, one as a King who rules over them and the other as Warrior who fights for them.

Alpha and Omega: To whom does this title properly belong?

(1) At Revelation 1:8, its owner is said to be God, the Almighty. In Rev 1 verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, NE, JB, NAB, Dy.

(2) Many translations of Revelation into Hebrew recognize that the one described in Rev 1 verse 8 is Jehovah, and so they restore the personal name of God there.

(3) Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be sons of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his brothers. (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those brothers of Jesus are referred to as sons of God. (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)

(4) At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in Rev 22 verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.

(5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be the first and the last, which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression apostle is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title Alpha and Omega applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.

What did Jesus mean when at Rev 1:17 I am the first and the last

And he laid his right hand upon me and said: Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one. (Revelation 1:17b, 18a) In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. When Jesus presents himself by the title the First and the Last, he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.

Jesus was indeed the First human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is the Last to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes the living one . . . living forever and ever. He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called the living God. (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2) For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Revelation 1:18b) Jehovah has given him the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades

What is meant by the statement Beside me there is no God

Lets look at the context. At Isaiah 43:10 Jehovah says: Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah? Again, the context answers, No! God was challenging the nations to show how they had produced a true god that could rival Himself. None of the idolatrous Gentile nations formed a true God before Jehovah, because no one existed before Jehovah. Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10) So the context is not saying that other Gods dont exist apart from Jehovah. This then does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god. (Ps. 82:1, 6; John 1:1, NW) At Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah is referred to as mighty God, just as Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6; but only Jehovah is ever called God Almighty.Gen. 17:1.

As a point of interest, if a certain title or descriptive phrase is found in more than one location in the Scriptures, it should never hastily be concluded that it must always refer to the same person. Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called king of kings (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called the light of the world. (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) We should always consider the context and any other instances in the Bible where the same expression occurs.

edpobre · Sep 21, 2002

Originally posted by cougan

Ed have you really even begun to answer the questions or verses presented? I don't think you have. What happened to the other guy franklin that was helping you that agreed with your view? I cant recall the name right now. Would you please try and answer some of the questions I asked you in my previous post and some of the question asked by OS. Everything you have presented in your last post has been answered as far as I can tell. You havent presented anything new.

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I have answered your questions with quotes from the Bible but you don't accept my answers because they don't agree with your FALSE belief of the Trinity and the DEITY of Jesus. Franklin must have been suspended or banned for posting at the "Christians only" forum as I have been a while ago.

You say Jesus is'nt called God. But you have been shown multiple verses that do say that Jesus is God. You have not even touched on the Holy Spirit as of yet. Again multiple verses have been presented to show that the Holy Spirit is a person having his own will but also being Deity.

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As I earlier posted which you agreed, I told you that I believe only what Jesus taught, NOT what others say.  Please show me a verse where Jesus TEACHES that he is God - not "I AM." You refer to the Holy Spirit as a "person." What is "person" Cougan? And WHICH Holy Spirit are you referring to? God the Father is SPIRIT (John 4:23-24) and He is HOLY. Is this the Holy Spirit you are referring to? Of Course, He (the Father/Holy Spirit) is God!

Or are you referring to the SEVEN (7) spirits that God SENDS out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6)? Please SPECIFY who among these do you refer as the Holy Spirit that is DEITY. 

Maybe your biggest hang up is with the word GOD. It simply means Deity. The Father, The Holy SPirit and JESUS are all Deity.

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You must be kidding! If ALL of these (the Father, the Holy Spirit and JESUS) are ALL deity, why do you refer to them as "persons" in ONE God? Why do Trinitarians say THREE "persons" in ONE God INSTEAD of outrightly saying "THREE Deity in ONE God?"Are you ASHAMED to say it?

Maybe an anology will help you understand it better. Lets say there are 3 people in my family and we have the last name Deity. Are we not all Deity but yet we are distinct from one another. We are equal but we have differing roles or funtions. The Father in this family is the planner He makes up the rules and the plans and the other 2 since they love their father do his will. Now this is not a perfect example by any means but do you get the picture.

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Yes, I get the picture. But where did you get the idea that DEITY or God is a last name? From whom did you learn this? Why should I believe you? Prove to me that you are NOT a FALSE teacher. 

 It should become abundantly clear if the Father has charcteristics of Deity and the Holy Spirit and Jesus has characteristics of Deity that they are all Deity which is the one God. The bible makes distinction of who it refering to so that we know wheather or not it talking about God the Father or God the son or God the Holy Spirit. What exactly does the word GODHEAD mean to you?

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That's only your opinion Cougan. You have some characteristics of a MONKEY Cougan. Does that make you a MONKEY? Would you like me to call you a MONKEY?

Godhead does not mean anything to me. It is merely an invention of Trinitarian translators who wanted to humor a Trinitarian King. You find this word only in the King James Version.

The Old Testament writers did NOT use this word at all when referring to God. Show me where in the Old Testament does Godhead is used instead of God.

Ed  

edpobre · Sep 21, 2002

Originally posted by cougan
The unanswerd question. I challenge you to explain this one verse.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

There are many more like this one. But, please go ahead and try and explain away the clarity of this verse that shows 2 different persons being refered to here as Jehovah. Two agreeing as one saying I am the first and I am the last and besides me there is no God. We even see Jesus make this statement in Rev 1:11, 17 and 22:13.

Lets see if you can come up with something more creative than its a mistranslations this time.

The ball is your court now, what are you going to do with it? [/B]

Where do you see TWO Jehovahs in Isaiah 44:6? Jehovah the King of Israel is the SAME Jehovah his redeemer? Why do Trinitarians have such "tunnel" vision?

This Jehovah who said "I am the first, and I am the last" is the SAME Jehovah who said "I am the Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 1:8 (cf. Rev. 21:5-6) who sat on the throne (Rev. 4:2) and referred to as the Lord God "who is (today) and who was (yesterday) and who is to come (forever), the Almighty" in Rev. 4:8 who created all things (Rev. 4:11).

The son of man (Rev. 1:13) who said "I am the Alpha and the Omega" in Rev. 1:11 (cf. Rev. 22.13) is the LAMB who stood in front of Him who sat on the throne (Rev. 5:6) and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Ed

 

Phoenix · Sep 21, 2002

Thanks OS,

 The Messiah here prophesied of appears to be both God and man; a divine Person called Jehovah, who is all along speaking in the context, and in the text itself; for none else could pour out the spirit of grace and supplication; and yet he must be man, to be pierced; and the same is spoken of, that would do the one, and suffer the other; and therefore must be the yeanyrwpov, or God-man in one person.

That's kind of where i was headed. I know that different translations 
say that it will be HIM who is pierced rather than it will be ME who is pierced. But as i understand that's only to correlate with the verse in John - that the scripture would be fulfilled. It's amazing how important this verse is and whether it's considered to be Messianic or not and what's more amazing i think is that to a Hebrew scholar the issue isn't the translation of the verse, Me vs HIM, it's to what it applies. Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting.

Kain · Sep 21, 2002

Originally posted by cougan
The unanswerd question. I challenge you to explain this one verse.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

There are many more like this one. But, please go ahead and try and explain away the clarity of this verse that shows 2 different persons being refered to here as Jehovah. Two agreeing as one saying I am the first and I am the last and besides me there is no God. We even see Jesus make this statement in Rev 1:11, 17 and 22:13.

Lets see if you can come up with something more creative than its a mistranslations this time.

The ball is your court now, what are you going to do with it?

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD, Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty, says: I am the First and the Last; there is no other NLT

Another possible translation
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, Israel's King and their Redeemer,

The word 'his' (not 'His') here is understood to collectively represent all the children of Israel. You can tell because it's not capitalized, in any of the bible versions.

edpobre · Sep 21, 2002

Originally posted by Phoenix
Hiya OS

Would you mind giving your opinion on Zech 12:10 ?

Hi Phoenix,

Here's ANOTHER version of Zech. 12:10  (Today's English Version) which I BELIEVE is the more accurate translation:

"I will fill the descendants of David and the other people of Jerusalem with the spirit of mercy and the spirit of prayer.

They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will mourn foir HIM like those who mourn for an only child. They will mourn bitterly, like those who have lost theior first-born son."

There is no question in my mind that God is speaking in this verses. And since God is SPIRIT, then He could NOT have been the one who was pierced or stabbed.

It is also ABSURD to think that God would refer to Himself as "ME" and "HIM" at the SAME time.

Ed

tericl2 · Sep 22, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Hi Phoenix,

Here's ANOTHER version of Zech. 12:10  (Today's English Version) which I BELIEVE is the more accurate translation:

"I will fill the descendants of David and the other people of Jerusalem with the spirit of mercy and the spirit of prayer.

They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will mourn foir HIM like those who mourn for an only child. They will mourn bitterly, like those who have lost theior first-born son."

There is no question in my mind that God is speaking in this verses. And since God is SPIRIT, then He could NOT have been the one who was pierced or stabbed.

It is also ABSURD to think that God would refer to Himself as "ME" and "HIM" at the SAME time.

Ed

Actually the TEV is a dynamic translation. Hardly the translation from which to argue points of accuracy. Here is what Young's Literal Translation says -

Zech. 12:10
And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

Here is another literal version -

Zech 12:10 (LITV)
And I will pour on the house of David, and on those living in Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they shall be bitter over Him, like the bitterness over the first-born.

I think you will find these much more accurate for in depth study.

OldShepherd · Sep 22, 2002

Originally posted by Kain
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD, Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty, says: I am the First and the Last; there is no other NLT

Another possible translation
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, Israel's King and their Redeemer,

The word 'his' (not 'His') here is understood to collectively represent all the children of Israel. You can tell because it's not capitalized, in any of the bible versions.

That is very interesting. By whom is "his" understood to "collectively represent all the children of Israel?" By anti-Trinitarians? Because that is certainly not the understanding of the the Jewish translators of the Jewish Publication society (JPS) and the Jewish translators of the LXX, 250 years BC.

(JPS) Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.

(LXX) 6 Thus saith God the King of Israel, and the God of hosts that delivered him; {1} I am the first, and I am hereafter: beside me there is no God.

I am fairly certain that the Jewish Publication Society does not, and the LXX translators did not, have a Trinitarian bias.

Capitalization, in modern versions, is irrelevant! The original Hebrew did not have any!

OldShepherd · Sep 22, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Hi Phoenix,

There is no question in my mind that God is speaking in this verses. And since God is SPIRIT, then He could NOT have been the one who was pierced or stabbed.

It is also ABSURD to think that God would refer to Himself as "ME" and "HIM" at the SAME time.

Ed

More of the same heretical mumbo jumbo. You acknowledge that God is speaking in this passage but because it contradicts you man-made doctrine it is absurd.

OldShepherd · Sep 22, 2002

Posted by Lightbearer

(1) At Revelation 1:8, its owner (Alpha and Omega) is said to be God, the Almighty. In Rev 1 verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in Rev 1 verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, NE, JB, NAB, Dy.

Some, not all, scholars hold this view. Your statement falsely implies that this is the predominant view. Also this statement ignores my earlier post which cites several early church fathers, identifying Jesus as the Alpha and Omega

Alpha and Omega in the early church

Clement, Stromata, [A.D. 153-193-217.]

Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break. Wherefore also to believe in Him, and by Him, is to become a unit, being indissolubly united in Him; and to disbelieve is to be separated, disjoined, divided.

The sensible types of these, then, are the sounds we pronounce. Thus the Lord Himself is called "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end,"[7] " by whom all things were made, and without whom not even one thing was made."[8]

Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break.
Wherefore also to believe in Him, and by Him, is to become a unit, being indissolubly united in Him; and to disbelieve is to be separated, disjoined, divided.

The Stromata, Or Miscellanies., Book IV.

Chap. XXV.
And the Son is neither simply one thing as one thing, nor many things as parts, but one thing as all things; whence also He is all things. For He is the circle of all powers rolled and united into one unity. Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break. Wherefore also to believe in Him, and by Him, is to become a unit, being indissolubly united in Him; and to disbelieve is to be separated, disjoined, divided.

VI. On Monogamy.[1]

The apostle, too, writing to the Ephesians, says that God "had proposed in Himself, at the dispensation of the fulfilment of the times, to recall to the head" (that is, to the beginning) "things universal in Christ, which are above the heavens and above the earth in Him."[6] So, too, the two letters of Greece, the first and the last, the Lord assumes to Himself, as figures of the beginning and end!

Cyprian, Three Books of Testimonies, Second book. (ca. 248 AD)
Also Paul to the Colossians: "Who is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature."[4] Also in the same place: "The first-born from the dead, that He might in all things become the holder of the pre-eminence."[5] In the Apocalypse too: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto Him that is thirsting from the fountain of the water of life freely."[6] That He also is both the wisdom and the power of God, Paul proves in his first Epistle to the Corinthians. "Because the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews indeed a stumbling-block, and to the Gentiles foolishness; but to them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."[7]

Justin Martyr, First Apology, (ca. 150 AD)
For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, (2) but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, (2) whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue.

a certain rational power[proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave(Nun).

Origen, Commentaries on John, (185 254 AD)
23. The Title "Word" Is To Be Interpreted By The Same Method As The Other Titles Of Christ. The Word Of God Is Not A Mere Attribute Of God, But A Separate Person. What Is Meant When He Is Called The Word.

But in the Apocalypse of John, too, He says,(7) "I am the first and the last, and the living One, and I was dead. Behold, I am alive for evermore." And again,(8) "I am the A and the O, and the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Four Discourses Against The Arians
Written Between 356 And 360.

Discourse IV
And this John enables us to do, who says in the Apocalypse, 'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they who make broad their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie. I Jesus have sent My Angel, to testify these things in the Churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star. And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and let him that heareth say, Come; and let him that is athirst, Come; and whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely[6].' If then 'the Offspring of David' be the 'Bright and Morning Star,' it is plain that the flesh of the Saviour is called 'the Morning Star,' which the Offspring from God preceded; so that the sense of the Psalm is this, 'I have begotten Thee from Myself before Thy appearance in the flesh;' for 'before the Morning Star' is equivalent to 'before the Incarnation of the Word.'

click (Here) to link to Early church Fathers.

(3) Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be sons of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his brothers. (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those brothers of Jesus are referred to as sons of God. (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)

That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Irrelevant! It is said here. Your task is to prove that the manuscript evidence is wrong. You have not begun to do that. See ECF quotes, above.

(5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be the first and the last, which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression apostle is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title Alpha and Omega applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son. When Jesus presents himself by the title the First and the Last, he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God.

Very clever how you omit Rev 21:13-16, where Jesus very clearly identifies Himself as I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. and you have totally ignored the historical evidence. Therefore your evidence is false and your conclusion is also false. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church the He, Himself, established on the rock. The first generations of His church taught that Jesus was the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Jesus was and is God!

LightBearer · Sep 22, 2002

The early church fathers are not inspired. The scriptures speak for themselves. That you go to them and not to scripture to prove a point severely weakens your argument.

LightBearer · Sep 22, 2002

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Very clever how you omit Rev 21:13-16, where Jesus very clearly identifies Himself as I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. and you have totally ignored the historical evidence. Therefore your evidence is false and your conclusion is also false. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church the He, Himself, established on the rock. The first generations of His church taught that Jesus was the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Jesus was and is God! [/B]

I assume you meant Rev 22: 13-16.

LightBearer · Sep 22, 2002

I did address these verses but to clarify I will again.

Isaiah 44:6 (AS) reads: Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. Revelation 1:8 catches up this thought in Isaiah and adds to it the point that he is coming: I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God, the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.

So just because the verse preceding Revelation 22:13 speaks of that Alpha and Omega as coming does not necessarily mean it refers to Christ Jesus, whose second coming is frequently mentioned. Revelation 1:8 shows Jehovah as coming, and so Revelation 22:12 may do likewise. He comes representatively, through Christ Jesus. Revelation 4:8 speaks of Jehovah as coming, and Revelation 21 shows his presence with humankind. Look! the tent of God is with humankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. (Re 21 Vss. 3, 6, 7) This reference is certainly to Jehovah God, for he is God to the anointed body members of Christ and they are his spiritual sons. They are Christs brothers, not sons, so the text is speaking of Jehovah, and it calls him the Alpha and the Omega. So when the Alpha and Omega is mentioned again in the very next chapter, why must the term suddenly shift to Christ Jesus instead of Jehovah God? It does not.

Some argue that it refers to Christ Jesus at Revelation 22:13 because verse 16 shows Jesus speaking. But that does not mean the speaker of the preceding verses must also be Jesus. There is a change in speakers between verses 15 and 16. We must remember that the revelation God gave to Jesus Christ was passed on to the apostle John by one of Christs angels, and that this angel sometimes spoke for Jehovah God and sometimes for Christ Jesus; so we must watch for these changes and note them on the basis of content and context. It is true that when the angel speaks for Christ, at Revelation 1:17, he states: I am the First and the Last. But a check of the context shows this First and Last was with definite limitations, was relative to just the matter of Christ Jesus death and resurrection, as verse 18 shows. Christ was the first one raised in the first resurrection, and the last one that will be raised directly by Jehovah God. Others who follow in that resurrection will be raised by God through Christ. (John 6:40; 1 Cor. 6:14) In fact, this limitation is also shown by the fact that First is shown to mean Firstborn by one ancient manuscript. Christ was the firstfruits of those asleep in death. (1 Cor. 15:20) When First and Last is again applied to Christ Jesus, at Revelation 2:8, note that again it is with respect to death and resurrection. But when it speaks thus of Jehovah no limitation is set on the meaning.

So we must be reasonable. When we see an expression that is applied to Jehovah several times in its unlimited sense, and then come across it again but not specifically indicated as applying to Jehovah, we cannot become flighty and switch the expression to Christ Jesus; and especially when we note that it is applied elsewhere, not in its unlimited sense, but only with definite limitation of meaning. Trinitarians try to capitalize on this expression to show it was used indiscriminately for either God or Christ, and in this way show God and Christ are the same. But logic and reason do not allow this, no more than do many other texts in the Bible.

Are Trinitarians Christians?

Are Trinitarians Christians?

YES

NO

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