Pre-destination???

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LoG

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I fail to see the the problem that Arminians have with the doctrine of predestination. If you believe in hell in the first place, then why not also believe in predestination?


Because it stands in contradiction to so many scripture verses and it produces a fruit of sloth in fulfilling the great commission. It is a doctrine of hopelessness both within and without those churches that subscribe to it. Lastly it gives a false sense of security which can often be very dangerous because "Perseverance of the Saints" is not scriptural either.
 
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JonF

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Because it stands in contradiction to so many scripture verses
Please state some.


and it produces a fruit of sloth in fulfilling the great commission.
IMHO it is the only way the great commission is possible.


It is a doctrine of hopelessness both within and without those churches that subscribe to it.
I disagree; my hope is placed solely in Christ and not in all in my ability to make a good “choice”


Lastly it gives a false sense of security which can often be very dangerous because "Perseverance of the Saints" is not scriptural either.
This is not the issue being discussed in this thread, but if you do wanna discuss Oerseverance of the Sains by all means post another thread :).
 
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LoG

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IMHO it is the only way the great commission is possible.


But you posted in a previous post:
It is true that Calvinist tend to focus far less on “getting people saved” (and too often I think we carry this to close to an unpleasant extreme) because when it comes down to it, it isn’t our job to save people, that’s Christ job.

I disagree; my hope is placed solely in Christ and not in all in my ability to make a good “choice”


Well, God still put before you life and death. Do you not daily choose life? Was God lying that He put that choice before you?
When the Lord stood outside knocking, did you not let Him in? Or did he break down the door and walk in uninvited?
This is not the issue being discussed in this thread, but if you do wanna discuss Oerseverance of the Sains by all means post another thread :).
Can't have the one without the other. If perseverance of the Saints is not valid scripturally then by extension neither is predestination.
 
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zeke37

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predestination...

well, I believe that the elect, and remnant are predestined. I believe that everyone else must choose Christ for Salvation. Those that are predestined, are so for a reason. They earned it already (in the age before, where Satan fell and drew 1/3 of the souls away from God. )and there Salvation is not at issue. This is how God could hate Esau and love Jacob, before they were even born. This is why God would say that Elijah was named and ordained a prophet before the foundation of the world(age). That is why Jonah couldn't get away from doing God's will, even though he really tried not to do His will.

The prophets and the disciples were pre ordained.

Judas, btw, who says he wasn't saved. That is between God and him. And Judas did repent, was truly sorry, threw the money back at the murderers who planned Christ's death, and then was killed on the tree, his insides hanging outside of his body. He certainly did not hang himself. He was murdered himself, because he was sorry of what he did and was going to tell everyone the truth, that Christ was no malefactor.

So, let's leave Judas' salvation to God.

The elect are here for a reason, and if they need guiding, God will do so. Those that are not elect, have free will to choose God or Satan. Life or death.


in His service
c
 
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Rafael

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God's point of view is privy to God and the power He alone has to manage His creation.
From our point in standing:

Php 2:12 ¶ So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

2Pe 1:10 So, dear brothers and sisters, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Doing this, you will never stumble or fall away.

Pr 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: 30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

De 30:19 "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!

De (NLT) 30:19 "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live! 20 Choose to love the LORD your God and to obey him and commit yourself to him, for he is your life. Then you will live long in the land the LORD swore to give your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

2 Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
 
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JonF

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But you posted in a previous post:
I see no contradiction between these two quoted post
Well, God still put before you life and death. Do you not daily choose life? Was God lying that He put that choice before you?
When the Lord stood outside knocking, did you not let Him in? Or did he break down the door and walk in uninvited?
I absolutely did all these things, but only because He both drew me to and enabled me to.
Can't have the one without the other. If perseverance of the Saints is not valid scripturally then by extension neither is predestination.
I agree with this. But a critique of OSAS or perseverance is a bit out of place in this thread.
 
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Nachtjager

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:idea: I said I was gonna’ stay out of this debate, but couldn’t! So, let’s take the Calvinist view of predestination and predetermination and apply it to a few other scriptures to see what happens. (And these are but a few.) The words in bold are the words I’ve changed to meet the criteria of Calvinist predestination - see if you think it changes anything.

Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the LORD, your God, and that there is no other; never again will certain people be shamed. 28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on some selected people. Some of your sons and daughters will prophesy, some of your old men will dream dreams, some of your young men will see visions. 29 Even on the people I chose to be my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days to the certain people I have selected.

Isaiah 40:5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and some of mankind will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." 6 A voice says, "Cry out." And I said, "What shall I cry?" "Some men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field. 7 The grass withers and the flowers fall, because the breath of the LORD blows on some of them. Surely the some of the people are grass.

Mark 3:27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of some particular men will be forgiven them. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Mark 13:12"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Some men will hate you because of me, but certain selected men will stand firm to the end will be saved.

John 1:6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him certain selected people might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw certain selected people to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved certain particular people, so you must love one another. 35 By this certain selected people will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." 36 Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."

Acts 2:16 Now, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on certain selected people. Some of your sons and daughters will prophesy, some of your young men will see visions, some of your old men will dream dreams.

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive certain particular people here, for some of them do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

The Great Commission

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of certain people, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching certain selected people to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to certain people whom I have selected. 16 The person I’ve already chosen who believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe who the Father already decided not to choose will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached only to those whom God already knew were selected, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Kinda’ messes up most of the NT, doesn’t it? Okay, lemme’ have it!:bow:

By the way, in most of these cases, the words which were eliminated happened to be "all" or simply "men."

Take care and God bless! :wave:
 
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thecountrydoc

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If indeed we were predestened then God would be a lier because we would have no power of choice/free will. It would also negate the love aspect of God's charector and at the same time eleminate the need for us to love God or even be thankful for the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on the cross.

If anyone wants a complete study of this subject please feel free to ask.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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thecountrydoc

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Hi Zeke37,

Are you saying that God doesn't treat all of us the same with an equal chance for salvation? If that is correct, then Satan's accusations of God being unfair would be correct. It would also mean that God doesn't love some of His children with an equal love.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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JonF

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If indeed we were predestened then God would be a lier because we would have no power of choice/free will.
The claim that we are predestined isn’t a claim about ALL our will. It only is claim about our will with respect to our relationship with God. It says nothing about other acts of will, such as where you eat lunch, what job you have, etc. Standard Calvinist predestination is actually several claims compounded together. First, apart from divine influence we will never choose God, due to our sinful nature. Secondly, that God chooses to divinely influence some to accept His salvation. Calvinist makes no claim to know what basis God chooses these people on (in fact most Calvinist hold that this is actually unknowable).

It would also negate the love aspect of God's character
I think you are missing a fundamental point of Christianity. Everyone deserves hell. No one is owed salvation. Predestination isn’t about God choosing some to be thrown into hell; it’s about some being elected to salvation. Since no one is owed salvation, anything God gives humanity as a means to escape hell is nothing but unmerited favor and grace. The bible comments on God’s treatment of grace in this light in Mathew 20:15

and at the same time eleminate the need for us to love God or even be thankful for the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on the cross.
I do not understand this at all. No one denies the need to love God, predestination only comments on WHY we love God. We are saved by grace through faith. NOT by faith through grace.


Are you saying that God doesn't treat all of us the same with an equal chance for salvation? If that is correct, then Satan's accusations of God being unfair would be correct.
It would also mean that God doesn't love some of His children with an equal love
This lack of “fairness/equality” is both addressed in Romans 9 and Mathew 20. Also I have a feeling that what Satan feels is fair might be a tad bit different than what God feels is fair.
 
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LoG

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I absolutely did all these things, but only because He both drew me to and enabled me to.

Like you, He drew me and enabled me, however in between those two events I had to make a choice. This choosing may be difficult for some to see because the drawing was what they already had made a choice to seek.

Then i hear you say " but noone seeks the Lord from the flesh", and I agree. Noone is looking for God and heaven but many do want to stay out of hell. It is an unfortunate reality that hell motivates more people then the promise of heaven. So then when God does draw the sinner they are more then ready to accept and do not see it as a choice even. They have found what they were looking for.

But then there are people like me who were not looking for God. He comes to us at a time in our lives when all hope is lost and presents us with a choice of life or death. Not everyone chooses life but those that do, God then enables to stay in the faith and persue righteousness and a relationship with Him. Those who choose different are justly deserving of the fruits of their choice.
 
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JessicaRC

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Like you, He drew me and enabled me, however in between those two events I had to make a choice

Making the "choice" for salvation is OUR first step in Salvation, but we would not make that choice had God not predestined us to do so. Salvation belongs to the Lord and I, for one, do not dare to take any part of the credit away from God by saying that I chose Him. Romans 3 is pretty clear that left to ourselves, we would never choose God. That leaves one option: God chose us before the foundations of the world.

''...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.'' Ephesians 1:4-5

This verse is pretty clear that God #1-presdestined us and #2-according the good pleasure of His will.

That doesn't jive with the human nature because we don't understand how God would chose some and not others, but God did not call us to understand everything about Him and his decisions, he called to have faith and holiness. And sometimes that means we won't ever be able to understand God...ie: the Trinity.:wave:
 
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LoG

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Making the "choice" for salvation is OUR first step in Salvation, but we would not make that choice had God not predestined us to do so.

God has made it pretty clear in His Word that He predestined all. Rafael in post 23 listed quite a few verses that point out that we are to make a choice and how we work out our salvation.
I will say this from my own experience however: the choice is not offered throughout our lifetime but there will be a point in time in everyone's life when it is. We are only enabled after the gift is offered and we make the choice to accept. Esau was a good example of one was offered and then rejected. After the rejection he was no longer able to receive it even though he sought it with tears.
 
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zeke37

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Hi Zeke37,

Are you saying that God doesn't treat all of us the same with an equal chance for salvation? If that is correct, then Satan's accusations of God being unfair would be correct. It would also mean that God doesn't love some of His children with an equal love.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Hello Doc,

God treats us all with love and according to His will. We all will have a chance of Salvation, but when is up to God. There are many who have never heard of Christ, that live today or have passed on already. Every one of them, and all of us will have a real chance at Salvation. For many, that will come after the 7th trump sounds.



God is not unfair. He has a reason for everything.

God Himself closes the eyes and ears of many on purpose, for a reason. He destroyes cities and peoples and children and nations and livestock, and He saves cities and peoples and cities and nations and livestock.

And God loves ALL His children, and hopes that ALL will achieve Salvation, although it is written that many will not. He may not Love all the things we do, but He loves us all. He definitely holds a higher opinion of some than others.

What I am saying is that the elect are predestined. That means many things, and they fully accept Christ and follow Him. They achieved that acceptance by God in the age before the 'foundations of the world'.

They are here for a purpose, not loved more or less, but trustworthy and up to the task that God appoints. The elect won Salvation in the age before, and thus in this age, they also attain Salvation through Christ. It is part of them. It is their character.

This is how God could hate Esau, and love Jacob, before they were even born. He knew their character from that age, as He knows all of ours. IMO that is why we are born into our situation in life. All because He loves us so much that He gives us the opportunity to learn the lesson that we need to in this age, enough to choose Him over Satan. Esau cared nothing for his heritage, and instead chose a bowl of poriage over the first borns rights and blessings from Issac.

So there are different levels to God's love....although He loves us all.

Like the remnant in the Word, the elect are guided by God, and if needed He can 'direct' them, step in and do whatever He wants to do, if those elect are on the right path, or the wrong path (as in Jonah).

I hope that I didn't offend you.

in His service
c
 
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JessicaRC

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God has made it pretty clear in His Word that He predestined all.

Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

The grammar makes it pretty clear here that there are some whom God predestines and some He does not predestine. Verse 30 says that those whom He predestines are called, justified and glorified; consequently, those whom He does NOT predestine will not be glorifed so there must be some who are not predestined.

Rafael in post 23 listed quite a few verses that point out that we are to make a choice and how we work out our salvation.

Calvinists totally agree that a choice needs to be made but they maintain that this choice is made in accordance with God's will and because of God's will. Romans 3 clearly says that none will seek God on their own accord, no one chooses God on their own accord

I will say this from my own experience however: the choice is not offered throughout our lifetime but there will be a point in time in everyone's life when it is. We are only enabled after the gift is offered and we make the choice to accept.

I think for this discussion, scripture should be the basis for our affirmations rather than our own experiences.

Esau was a good example of one was offered and then rejected. After the rejection he was no longer able to receive it even though he sought it with tears.

Could you please reference scripture that shows where Esau was offered salvation (in an effectual calling sense) and also where he desperately sought it but God denied giving it to him.

:wave:
 
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Markea

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Is there such a thing as being pre-destined for heaven by God or do you belief that anyone become saved?

There is such a thing as being predestined.. as it is a biblical term, although it's also biblical that any person can be saved.

Pre-destination simply means that God (beforehand) provided a place (destination) for all (any) who would believe and trust in His Son for the forgiveness of sins that is through His precious shed blood.

This is scriptural because our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world. This is what the PRE part means.. The DESTINATION part is that they're adopted children, accepted IN HIM.. ie, their destination is as sons and daughters of God.. brought into the family of God.

It doesn't mean that God arbitrarily chooses some to be saved and some to be damned.. that's not it at all.
 
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Rafael

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God stands outside of the dimension of time and is able to see begining to end, making all things work together for good; to those that love God and are the called according to His purpose. This statement and all of God's statements about predestination do not leave anyone out, unable to have salvation. They only speak of God's position of power - His omniscience. When we try and judge for what God already knows, we, as flawed, ignorant men, start putting limits on His grace and atonement. His call was to His elect, but even they, as natural branches, have had the power to reject. The companions or "grafted in" may have not originally been called as "elect but have obeyed and seen the power of God enough to understand who He is and want what He offers through Jesus, the promised Messiah to the house of Israel and house of Judah by covenant.
God's point of view is from such power that He can see Pharoah's choices from the womb and then use them to bring glory and purpose to His own name in saving His people. I guess it is how one defines words like "elect", but even then, we do not have the power to look back or forward in time to know as God knows....

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 
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IamAdopted

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We see in scripture that none can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them..We also see Jesus when He says you did not choose me but I chose you.. We also see where Jesus says all that the Father has given me I have lost not one..If anyone is drawn to Jesus it is the Fathers doing and not our choice.. Then we see that many are called by few are chosen.. So it is the Father who does the drawing it is the Father who does the giving. We are mere humans and the pot in the potters hand..It is all in God for He alone is saviour.. We as humand could never even save ourselves for one minute.. We can't even walk a righteous life without Christ in us. For righteousness is imputed to us..
 
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