Public Prayer

So, all the Christians I know in my daily life have always believed that prayer is a private thing, which should be done always in private. The support for this is Matthew 6:5-6. Throughout the gospels, every time Christ prays, He does so alone; he leaves the people He is with, even His disciples, to do so.

I have heard it argued that public prayer is okay as long as it's not hypocritical.

I find myself still utterly convinced that it is wrong to choose a place to pray with the intent that one will be seen praying. If there's no practical alternatives, I don't necessarily see the problem with praying in front of others, but I think it's very clear that we are commanded to *avoid* doing so.

In a discussion in News & Current Events, it's become clear that some people disagree with this. The two arguments I've heard are:

1. It is good to make a stand for the faith, and show people that you believe. (I hear this often echoed by students who attend these events, in interviews.)
2. They're not doing it to be seen; that would be hypocritical, but sincere prayer is different.

It seems to me that these two defenses of public prayers are mutually exclusive.

What do other people believe about this? What scripture or evidence do you cite in support of your beliefs?

The concrete example that started this was the famous "See You At The Pole" event, where students gather to pray at a flagpole near their school. Every interview and other source I have seen makes it seem that the intent of this is to make other students more aware of the faith of those attending.

Posted here because it occurs to me that this is a purely internal debate; non-Christians can't really tell us what we should or shouldn't think, and I don't think the question of "how does it make other people feel" is directly relevant; after all, we're talking about whether or not this is permissible, not whether or not the effects are what we want.

Interesting; my reading has been that, if being seen is *ANY PART* of the motivation, that it's wrong; your interpretation seems to be that, as long as being seen isn't *ALL* of the motivation, that it's wrong.

Are there specific sources you're looking at other than Matthew 6:5-6 that you base this on, or is this a question of how we interpret that particular verse?

Interesting point about the blessing; I believe it says that He went off to pray after feeding the multitude... I think there may be a difference between Christ blessing something and our prayers.

I don't know about synagogues; He may have participated in prayer there, but it wasn't discussed much, and I don't know how vocal He was. However, He was very consistent about leaving the people He was with when He was going to pray; it's specifically mentioned several times.

Originally posted by lambslove

He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be horrified and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is swallowed up in sorrow -- to the point of death. Remain here and stay awake." Then He went a little farther, fell to the ground, and began to pray ... Mark 14:33-35
He took others with him so they could pray together. They were in a public garden. They didn't try to hide, nor did Christ request them to pray silently, nor does it say that Christ prayed silently.

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And yet, He separated Himself from the others to pray...

It's interesting how we read this differently. I see it as a clear condemnation of praying with the intent of being seen praying - stating that you have already received your reward means God isn't interested in those prayers.

What's especially funny to me is that, in the entire time I've been hanging around CF, I think this is the first time that I've been convinced something is prohibited by the Bible, and the "conservative" Christians have all thought it was okay.

Originally posted by lambslove
Probably because you are used to taking the opposite side from the Christians on principle, no matter what.

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I don't think that's true. I am regularly in agreement with many Christians on many things, and (definitionally) all Christians on some things.

What I've noticed is that there is a tendency for people to lump Christians into categories like "liberal", "moderate", or "conservative". I almost always end up in the "liberal" bin; you and a few of the others almost always end up in the "conservative" bin.

It's like the differences between, say, Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists. It's not that the average Catholic has a list of Baptist beliefs, and tries to avoid holding any of them; it's just that their views of God and Christianity are very, very, different.

One of the problems I wrestle with is a tendency to assume that people who don't see God the same way I do are somehow intentionally resisting His glory. It's an easy assumption to make, but the fact is, I know that most Christians are doing their level best to seek truth and righteousness.

Most of us end up spending our time socializing with people with similar beliefs to our own; this makes it easy for us to fall into the trap of believing that the few people we meet who disagree aren't even making a good *effort* at understanding.

And yet... every Christian person I know in the flesh (friends, relatives, whatnot) finds the "SYATP" thing *very* disturbing... Does that mean people who don't are idiots? No. That they're lying? No. That they come from a different upbringing and view of the faith? Certainly!

One of my friends was once in a church where, sandwiched between the new Bingo schedule and the Confirmation class schedule, there was a brief mention that a black family had tried to join the congregation and enroll their kids in Sunday school, and "of course" they were told to try finding a church "more appropriate to their type". The entire congregation was just smiling and nodding. Evil, heartless, racists? I don't think so; just human, like the rest of us. I do think they were wrong; I think they were totally and unequivocally wrong. But... That's okay, we all are. It goes with the territory.

Originally posted by lambslove
No one would call me a conservative!

See You At the Pole and all public prayer are two different things. I'm not a big fan of SYATP myself, but not because it is public prayer, but becasue it is prayer for the purpose of being seen praying!

We're on the same side of that issue.

But you are wrong in condemning all public prayer. There are a zillion instances of it in the Bible if you'd look for them a minute. It's the intent of the heart that matters, not the location of the prayer.

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Actually, I think you've mostly persuaded me. I think the question is largely one of how you use the term "public". My in-laws say grace before meals. They do this no matter where they are, or what circumstance they are in. I don't see this as "public prayer".

Now, if my father in law were to stand up and boom out THANK YOU GOD FOR THIS FOOD AND BLESS IT TO OUR USE, IN JESUS' NAME AMEN!, in a restaurant, I'd think of it as "public prayer".

I don't think it's a question of whether or not you're in a public place, but whether or not you are going at all out of your way either:

1. When praying in a place which happens to be public, trying to make it as obvious as possible that you are praying.
or
2. When praying, to make a point of finding an obvious place to do it in.

So, for instance, if some friends of mine and I wished to organize a club to pray for a school, we'd try to get the use of a school room for our extracurricular activity, and pray with the door closed. Even though we can see each other, and people are aware that we're gathering, we aren't jumping up and down saying "WE'RE PRAYING HERE!". Or we might just meet at someone's house over the weekend. It's not as if God is absent-minded, and if we're not *AT* the school when we pray for it, He'll get confused and bless some other school.

Re-reading your posts, I think we've been talking at cross purposes over what "public" means. I have been thinking of it as implying some degree of "showing off". For instance, in Matthew 6:5, Christ talks about people who *stand* in the synagogues to pray. Perhaps He contrasts them with those who sit quietly, praying in their hearts rather than out loud so that everyone knows what they're doing.

I think my cutoff is that I don't think that it should ever be even a *part* of the goal of a prayer for it to be seen. That means, it shouldn't be ostentatious, and it should only be in a public place if you happen to be in a public place when you feel the need to pray.

Argh. Now that I've thought about it more, I don't like the wording of the poll questions. Ah, well.

Thanks much for your insights into this; I think you've helped me understand the boundary between things that don't bother me at all (my father in law saying grace before dinner) and things that bother me a lot (people publicizing their SYATP events and inviting news media).

I think the decision to meet at a flagpole is itself mildly questionable; even without any formal census-taking, everyone *will* see them, and if you think about it, a flagpole is generally *THE* most visible location around - that's where you *always* put the flag! So... I'd be a lot happier if they just met in a classroom, or met at someone's house, and I think it'd be better prayer.

I think it's really hard to pick an exceptionally public place and not have it be, at least partially, about being seen. Even if that's not your primary intent, the knowledge that you are visible is a dire temptation indeed, and we are, after all, instructed to avoid even the appearence of evil; if nine out of ten outsiders asked what you're doing say "They're showing solidarity and faith by praying in public", then you're having those effects, even if you didn't mean them.

Hmm. That's a good point. I still wish they'd be less enthusiastic about how cool it is that everyone sees people praying.